LE The Existential Alchemist (another alchemy overhaul)

[dafoose]

Welcome to Existential Alchemy!

 

This thread is the current base of operations where I will post changes and offer discussion for the overhaul of the alchemy system. I am currently working on a satisfactory beta to give to the community, but for now it's in alpha as I am still in the process of analyzing the basics. Until the basics are solid, I will refrain from attempting more advanced features. If you wish to contribute and help, please message me or post something in this thread! (at the mercy of moderators.) My ears are open to suggestion and my heart is open to acceptance.

 

Before I begin, let me give a brief rundown of what to expect from this mod and terminology...

 

EXPECT

This mod is an Alchemy Overhaul.

This mod aims to be bug free and minimally scripted. (No problems so far.)

This mod includes the rearrangement of vanilla alchemy and the inclusion of new alchemical concepts for balance.

This mod includes new material by manipulating vanilla and custom material. (Work in Progress.)

This mod includes changes to Vendors and Spawns for new ingredients. (Work in Progress.)

This mod provides additional lore to Skyrim with new books and vendors, containing lore friendly tales relevant to vanilla and neo-alchemy referenced by the mod.

This mod includes new effects and potions for more dynamic game play as an Alchemist. (Work in Progress.)

This mod is balanced between 3 kinds of Alchemists: Novice/Talented/Master. (Work in Progress.)

This mod includes toggle mode for potion making (VERY MUCH a work in progress, I'm still trying to figure out how to do it.)
This mod includes diverse tasting effects. (Inconsequential and a work in progress.)

This mod makes changes to the Alchemy perk tree. (work in progress.)

This mod have a stratified model assignment for crafted potions and poisons. (Work in progress, not sure how to start.)

 

TERMINOLOGY

Effects = A unique magical property assigned as one of four features of an Ingredient.

Magnitude = The specific power of a specific effect

Properties = Reference to ingredients by purpose (healing vs poisonous)

Pure effects = The combination of two ingredients with 1 effect.

Combination Effects = The combination of 2 or more ingredients with more than 1 effect.

Population of Effects = The number of effects of one kind available.

Nerf = Reduction for balance.

Buff = Addition for balance.

Tricks = Concoctions with poisonous and restorative properties. (Damage Magicka Regen, Damage Magicka, Invisibility.)

Stratified Assignment = Organization by magnitude, grouped properties of similar effects and magnitudes.

DMR/DSR = Damage Magicka Regen, Damage Stamina Regen

Time = Seconds/minutes

Power = Scale, magnitude

Price = value of ingredient property

 

Preface

I come before the nexus forums to humbly ask for guidance in making this modification to the game. I want to have a good first step if anything, to be efficient.

If you want to see my imagination come to fruition or include your own imagination, I recommend you trade your hesitation for haste and contact me with your intrigue.

 

I love alchemy, I am passionate for the game play including alchemy. I usually play as characters utilizing a lot of alchemy and I am very intimate with the vanilla alchemy system. The mods I used previously to provide the kind of balance I was looking for were: Brew a better potion, mini potion mod, Vinis Polished Alchemy Tree, and Skyrim Extended Potions. However, That's four mods for one system and I had to overlook the chaos from the four of them trying to work together. I've tried other alchemy overhauls already available, but I had several problems with them: Too many changes to vanilla alchemy, new overpowered potions, too many new effects, too many changes to user interface and alchemy system, portable alchemy kits? (not lore friendly and overpowered.) Too many changes to other aspects of game play (outside the scope: wacky.)

 

Understanding Vanilla Alchemy for the elegance and insensitivity contained.

Allow me to provide some disillusionment about alchemy....

 

1. Is Alchemy is overpowered in vanilla?

Yes, because you can level up very fast. No because that's all you can do with it: level up fast. And cry when you run out of River Betty.

 

2. I think vanilla alchemy got it wrong: Shouldn't all potions and poisons be leveled so my inventory isn't so cluttered?!!! (-victim of OCD.)

A good alchemist shouldn't have a cluttered inventory. If you know what you're doing, you wont end up with an ordinal set of poisons and potions when you reach a higher alchemy level. Vanilla got it right.

 

3. Why does Vanilla assign the same bottle to every single potion and poison you make?
I don't know, that's one of my pet peeves and I'm trying to find an alternative model assignment for that.

 

4. Is it weird for damage magicka regen to be so prevalent?

Yes and no. Judging by the flora, Skyrim is not a nice place for mages, considering Damage Magicka Regen is one of the most populated effects. However, I do play to rearrange some damage magicka regen properties on some ingredients that have no business lowering the magicka regen rate of any creature and assigning more lore friendly properties to them. Yes, some of the vanilla ingredients are not lore friendly because Damage Magicka Regen is that one potion you brew a lot of to get rich quick. This is a huge issue because it's like the entire alchemy system is based around the effectiveness of DMR. I would rather base the system around Health Potions, since those are the most valuable and sought after items for everyone, where as DMR is just a get rich quick scheme for casual gamers.

 

5. So how are you going to balance an Alchemy system with hundreds of different effects and magnitudes?!!

I'm going to centralize around several concepts.

A. Mountain flowers will be my reference for comparison.

B. Rarity equals Power.

C. Combinations will reflect inherent effects (Damage health nerf for resist poison ingredients.)

D. Intuitive changes for Harmony of pricing/population/power/rarity/properties/usefulness.

E. Base potion effectiveness around Restore Health. (Concept that alchemy is the essence of life, the Conduit for magic and strength (stamina)

F. Edit effects and magical properties one by one and spend a lot of time analyzing.

G. Use previous Elder Scrolls Lore for Guidance.

H. Help. (?!) From the community.

 

Maturation of the Alchemist

 

To give you an understanding of the Alchemy in way that is still akin to vanilla in a more elegant fashion, let us define and outline what is/is not an alchemist at various stages in the game.

 

What is a Novice Alchemist?

Level 10-30 in Alchemy.

Almost all ingredients are a mystery to you. You have not encountered every ingredient and you have not experienced every effect.

You hardly ever use poisons.

Your inventory is cluttered. (As it should be, you are a novice alchemist.)

You are usually low on useful potions.

You collect every ingredient you can find to raise your alchemy. (This is balanced and the more ingredients you have = the more experience in alchemy you receive)

Your potion/poison crafting is more of a supplementation to your skill set rather than a defining factor. (for example, 10 poison is assistance, 100 poison is assassination.)

You SHOULD be poor, but not broke. (this is one of the things I'm trying to balance.)
No snake-blood.

You make simple potions for simple purposes.

Experimentation not useful to you because you need to make potions with ingredients for skill.

 

What is a Talented Alchemist?

Level 40-70 in Alchemy.

You've encountered almost everything out there and can take a gander at what effects new ingredients have.

You use poisons occasionally to give you an edge in combat.

Your inventory is less cluttered. (Restoration potions will not clutter your inventory but various poisons and tonics will.)

You always seem to have one or more useful potions left over.

You tend to avoid lesser ingredients when collecting but still grab a few reagents to experiment with newer ingredients.

Your poison/potion crafting is useful as a skill and can assist you in combat, but it is still not a defining factor.

You should have quite a bit of money. *enough to afford a house*

You are trying to get snake-blood.

You make more advanced potions, but they are still rather simple.

Experimentation is becoming quite useful for you so you can make advanced tonics with more complicated effects.

 

What is a Master Alchemist?

Level 80+

You know almost everything about the ingredients of Tamriel. New ingredients excite you.

You use poisons all the time.

Your inventory is streamlined. (Nothing clutters your inventory and you always have what you want.

You always got a potion/poison for the job.

You only grab the ingredients you need for your next batch of potions poisons.

Your poison/potion crafting defines you in combat and outside of combat. Poisons are lethal and potions are strong.

You're rich from publicity and mercantile trade.

You have snake-blood.

Advanced and complex potions and poisons.

Experimentation is useful for using ingredients on the fly and testing new ingredients to maximize available ingredient inventory.

 

Detailed outline of Modifications
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Modification of Vanilla Ingredients.

Rearrangement of Vanilla pricing/EXP/magnitude/properties/effects/rarity.

Focusing mainly on Restorative potions and Poisons. Fortifications and Alterations will be less tampered with.

The goal is native harmony with lore friendly expectations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Changes to Perk Tree

Tree will maintain it's vanilla nature, new additions will be extensions of the current existing perk tree. These extensions will accommodate any new features. Purity is the exception, since Purity is a perk that doesn't quite fit in with the concept of alchemy. I find it hard to believe you want purity after all the work you put into experimentation. That just takes the fun out of making interesting potions. But I will leave a purity version there for those who want it, just in case.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Diverse Tasting Effects

Aside from the grunt or circle of light that comes from tasting a poisonous or helpful ingredient, I would like to include more effects for different ingredients. This modification is purely for entertainment and should not have consequences. It might be intertwined with changes to experimentation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The complete inclusion or determination of possible new baseline effects will mark the first beta. Once the New baseline effects and balance is completed, Existential Alchemy 1.00 will be released.

 

Inclusion of New Effects

Spectral (Appear Spectral) Works

Revive (Resurrect) WIP

Atrophy (Crippling Effect) Not working Correctly

Doom (Eventual Fatalities)Works perfectly

Cleanse (Repellant for %leveled undead) Works Great

Combustion (Offensive weapon coating against Undead and Vampires) Works but needs tweaking

Coolant (Ice Flesh, elemental resistances) Works but needs testing.

Adrenaline (short, slow time effect)Works but only on self (haha)

Illumination (nightvision) Works

Cure Poison : Works

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Transformations

Monster Transformations through alchemical means. Concept very much a work in progress. Ideas include variation from Werewolf to Mr. Hyde. Choices will be given to the character to choose one or the other, though. Monster variations may also differ in Monster power, duration, and appearance. Consequences for transformations will be given for balance, lore friendly penalties and so on. Variations of monsters may include...

~~~~

Werewolf\Werebear\Werecat

Abomination (Resembling human)

Size Alteration (Shrink Potion or Grow Potion)

Turn Zombie (poison to turn someone into a zombie.) Takes time. (?)

~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Augmentations

Permanent Alterations made by the character. Inclusion of alchemical rituals required to acquire augmentations.

Augmentations are permanent powers displayed inherently or in physicalities. Augmentations come permanent at a permanent price for balance and lore.

For the record, I presume anything altered or in the effect of alchemy to be within the scope of alchemy and this mod. However, steps will be taken to ensure anything seemingly outside the scope is brought back within the scope of alchemy.

~~~~

Electric/Fire/Frost Flesh Acquisition (Similar to Frost/Storm/Flame Cloak, but the effects display and sound will correspond with something more elegant befitting the skin.

Open Briar-Heart Surgery (Embodiment of the Great Magical Power of Briar-Hearts. Physicality includes briar heart physicality. )

Magicka/Stamina Core (Trade one Trait for another more buffed trait.)

Potion Amplifier (Physical appearance augmentation, potions now distributed (pretend they are) intravenous and are more effective.)

Venomous (Drink poisons for health instead of potions. Role Playing possibilities and game play changes with health. Concept still a work in progress.)

~~~~

Experimental Concepts. (I don't want to have too many effects, so I'm sorting ideas under consideration.)

~~~~

Ethereal Embrace (Develop Spriggan type properties, nature powers.)

Dark Embrace (Daedric blessings and transformations)

Divine Embrace (Priest powers, ability to bless, unable to benefit from unholy powers.)

Detect Life vision

Bladed Hands

~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

New Ingredients for new effects and some old effects.

~~~~

Hist sap

Werewolf Hearts

Bugs endogenous from mushrooms

Silver Dust

Oak wood

Roots from Plants

Eyes from Creatures

Toes from Trolls

New Bugs

Tree Saps

Dragons Blood

Seeds

Grounded materials

~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stratified Potions Model assignment
The concept is assigning poison/poisons to an appropriate model of effect with that potion or poison.
For example, if you craft an Invisibility potion, you should procure it in a white bottle of sorts. If you craft a weak poison, it should appear in a large bottle (less is more). If you craft a deadly poison, it should be in a small bottle. If you craft a powerful health potion, big bottle. (more is more) Weak potion, small bottle.
Crafted fear, frenzy, Paralyze and fortifications should correspond to their respective colors. (Black, Purple, Dark Red, Dark Green, Dark Blue, Yellow. Gray.)

 

The assignment goal is to be stratified, meaning it is assigned on order of magnitude that I will set for balance. For example, I might set the magnitude to 20, so every twenty points of damage added to a poison will reflect the kind of model that shows up when you make that poison.

 

This is an aesthetic modification, but I feel like it is important because you should have the same model appear for every single potion you make.

If anything I will try to enhance the vanilla system of model assignment to be appealing to the minimum if I am unable to do what I originally set out to accomplish.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MCM menu modulation and adjustments

The inclusion of an MCM menu is to facilitate another set of features called batch mode and dose mode. The feature will be on toggle in the menu.

Batch mode is the default vanilla way of making potions. Dose mode is a detailed approach to making concoctions by the dose.

Dose mode will include naming potions, modulation of ingredient powers and effects. (For example, trading one to greatly amplify another.) and it's own unlockable perks.

This feature is very much a work in progress concept wise and implementation wise. I don't know how I'll do it, but I'll give it my best shot.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Additional First Person Dialogue and changes

This alteration is not meant to interfere with those preexisting "first person messages" mods, but to expand or explore alchemy in first person.
For example, when tasting ingredients, the HUD will appear with a more personal response rather than "Discovered Weakness to shock from Giant Lichen" to "Shocking flavor from Giant Lichen" or "Feeling sick from tasting" or when lingering damage health is a first effect, "Feeling dizzy from tasting."

This feature is for immersion and lore and will not impact game play.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Change log

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The change log numbers function as follows:

Second number after decimal indicates number of completed features

Third Number after Decimal indicates version number of featured stack of changes

Any numbers after the third number indicative of a feature version number larger than 9.

First Number before decimal indicates Beta version of Completed features.

Second number before decimal indicates Official Release of completed features after beta is complete.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

0.01

Birth Modification

Made intuitive changes to poisonous effects on all ingredients

 

0.11

Made Intuitive changes to every effect (some effects and ingredients untouched.)

 

0.12

Nerfed DMR

Nerfed Slow

Reassigned one effect to Alteration

Reassigned one effect to Two-Handed

Assigned new effect "Cleanse" to 4 ingredients

Assigned new effect "Adrenaline" to 4 ingredients

Assigned new effect "Spectralis" to 2 ingredients

Assigned DMR to Luna Moth Wing over Regenerate health.

Nerfed damage magicka poisons

 

0.13

Nerfed DMR some more

Nerfed Slow some more

Nerfed Adrenaline 1 time

Nerfed Cleanse by 1 power

Effect "spectralis" changed to "Spectral"

Wrote Lore friendly skill book on Alchemy, The Unlucky and the Undead. Available at Merchants and Dark Water Crossing.

 

0.14

Created new ingredient Hist Sap. Should be available at Vendors.

Nerfed DMR again...

Nerfed Slow again...

Edited Typos in The Unlucky and the Undead

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Disclaimer:
If you're reading this, it's because I have NOT posted this mod on Skyrim Nexus yet. It is still very much a work in progress and I don't want to release it to the public until I have a stable version containing a few advanced features.
However, I could use some help theory crafting and getting some features rolling earlier. If anybody has any idea on how to execute some of the features I mentioned that have not already been implemented by myself, please contact me.

I'm also looking for 3D model artists for the new ingredients and effects. There is no obligation to work endless hours, but if you want to contribute a flower or seed or whatever you come up with, I'm more than welcoming of that and will include your assistance in logs and credits!

Edited October 10, 2013 by dafoose

[pheo3309]

Oh. My. Gosh. This has to be the most epic thing for alchemy overhauls that I've ever seen. While I wouldn't know the beginning of helping work on this, I can give a few ideas in regards to the flora effects (I have herbalism books galore). Also, for vampire lovers, you may want to include a potion for a transformation to a Vampire Lord, though I can understand if it's a bit overpowered as... Let's face it. Those guys definitely have anger issues in regards to spells and such. x.x I will definitely be tracking this.

[KaptenN]

How about changing the levels of novice/talented/master to novice/jouneyman/master to comply with already established terminology in the series?

[dafoose]

Oh, I would love to read and gather information from herbalist books. I have some books on aromatherapy and novels referencing alchemy as well. I am trying to learn anything interesting as possible to make this mod richer in content.

If you are willing to share some book titles and references I am very welcoming to that.

- KaptenN: The reason I chose those three alchemist types is because of the limitations the Vanilla game already places on Alchemy.

However, my references to novice, talented and master are not akin to the difficulty system. Nay, they are outside descriptions of the person playing the game.
For example, I am a master alchemist (cue evil laugh) and I am capable of doing the things on the list of the master alchemist. So I will make sure people like myself are able to do the things we are supposed to do at higher levels because of the information we keep, not because of the games own limitations and buffs.

If you're new to skyrim and the Elder Scrolls Series, then you are a Novice Alchemist, and thusly fit into the behaviors listed above.

My definitions for different types of alchemists is just to warm you up with an understanding of how i see Alchemy in skyrim and How I would like to appropriate options for those with the knowledge to take advantage of them and those with an opportunity to learn about that knowledge. (For example, if you're new to alchemy (not based on level) you'll want to read more books.

But by the time a person reaches level 80 or so, you should be pretty good at alchemy anyway.

The beauty of the alchemy system in Vanilla is that it already accomodates personal skill for success. So if you're talented at alchemy on a new game, it already rewards you appropriately because you'll make more potions, complicated potions, and batch potions so your inventory is not as cluttered. (I associate a cluttered inventory with a less experienced alchemist.)

It is not something I have to modify: Just clarifying it for anybody who wants to understand the modifications I DO make and why.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So I just moved to colorado and got settled in, I was AFK not working on this mod for 2 weeks.
I had a test that revamped all the magnitudes and ingredients and some new effects, but I scrapped it to try and rebuild it anew for better results.
So far I've completed THIS LIST up to damage stamina regen.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Created_Potions_%28Skyrim%29
I plan to work on this mod consistently, but it is a work in progress and I am currently focused on balance at the moment. After I revamp the vanilla, I am going to try and add the new features listed.

 

thank you for your support. I didn't think anybody was going to take my thread seriously, but I kept on refining the details just the same for my own reference, as I was going to make this mod one way or another.

[Vrandon1313]

I would request that you Try and Make a Requiem Compatible version as it is an Overhaul mod i am not willing to part with :)

[dafoose]

I've never played requiem so I'm not sure what that would entail.

Also, I just did a clean reinstall of my game to test the 2.0 version of my mod before release, so there's not much I can do to support stuff like requiem, which mods everything apparently.
Also, this thread is pretty old and it was the first draft of my mod when I first started working on it. The mod is already on the nexus, but it does not have all the features I hoped for, instead it is a minimalistic mod aimed at balancing and spicing up the alchemy system.

Overall you should be pleased with it. However, I'm not sure how it is compatible with mods like requiem.

It should be, however, because it only edits values and names. the only incompatibilites you would see would be unusual consistencies, such as ingredient effect changes, potion name changes and vendor loot changes.

Overall, I think you're better off just sticking with whatever it is reqiuem does, as that is the main aim of the mod: to not need other mods and to work within it's own system of reasoning, which is much different from my system of reasoning.