Ulfics letter to Highrock?

[black06]

Hey skyrim fans if you are reading this I had actually played through the stormcloack side and while browsing the "palace of kings" I overheard a conversation about Ulfirc's letter to high rock and Galmor told him no news yet so that got me wondering if Ulfric is up to something more than independent skyrim so theories i think?

 

1. Is Ulfric trying to manipulate high rock to scede from the empire?

 

2. Is Ulfric planning in the future a whole new empire will rise and Skyrim will be the new seat especially when he said "it will be skyrim that will lead Tamreil in these dark days"

[kleinstaff]

Hey skyrim fans if you are reading this I had actually played through the stormcloack side and while browsing the "palace of kings" I overheard a conversation about Ulfirc's letter to high rock and Galmor told him no news yet so that got me wondering if Ulfric is up to something more than independent skyrim so theories i think?

 

1. Is Ulfric trying to manipulate high rock to scede from the empire?

 

2. Is Ulfric planning in the future a whole new empire will rise and Skyrim will be the new seat especially when he said "it will be skyrim that will lead Tamreil in these dark days"

no Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet

he is trying to destroy the empire

If you do the thalmor embasyy mission read the thalmor report on Ulfric

in my opinion he was turned and now does exactly what the thalmor wants him to do without he realizing it himself

[black06]

@kleinstaff: empire supporter I see? So am i but it's just because I wanted to try it would u like to tell me evidence that the empire never wanted to outlaw talos but will eventually bring it back (excluding rikke)

[Nudedragon]

Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet, but they aren't controlling him anymore, he was just wound up to start the civil war. It's not like he's taking orders from them.

[Lachdonin]

Ulfric WAS a Thalmor agent, yes. That is undeniable. The wording of the Dossier on him implies that, while the last contact was confrontational, he was complicit in their agenda at one point.

 

@ Black

 

Hadvar makes it clear early on that the Empire did not enforce the Talos ban until Ulfric kicked up a public fuss. General Tullius and that one Thalmor bint both imply that the Thalmor Justicars are a new inclusion in Skyrim due to the Empires general unwillingness to enforce the ban and prosecute its own people. Torygg was also a clear worshiper of Talos, and Balgruf remains one, both of whom support the Empire.

 

There is clear evidence that the Empire is not particularly fond of the Talos Ban, even if we don't include all the symbolism and non-explicit arguments that they would reverse it should they gain a clear upper hand in the cold-war against the Dominion.

 

As for the Highrock question... I think it's less about creating a new Empire, and more about Ulfric being desperate. He has no allies outside of Skyrim, and no supply lines. Meanwhile, the Empire can and does funnel resources through their loyal Holds from both Cyrodiil and Highrock. Ulfric may be a moron, but he's not stupid, he knows that if he can gain control of, or at least deny his enemy some of those resources, his chances of victory would be far better.

 

Of course, after the Reach indecent, i don't know how he ever expects to get support of the Bretons in Highrock... "So, i know i committed an act of genocide against your relatives in the Reach, but if you guys could betray the empire and side with me, that would be swell."

[BloodrendX001]

Ulfric WAS a Thalmor agent, yes. That is undeniable. The wording of the Dossier on him implies that, while the last contact was confrontational, he was complicit in their agenda at one point.

 

@ Black

 

Hadvar makes it clear early on that the Empire did not enforce the Talos ban until Ulfric kicked up a public fuss. General Tullius and that one Thalmor bint both imply that the Thalmor Justicars are a new inclusion in Skyrim due to the Empires general unwillingness to enforce the ban and prosecute its own people. Torygg was also a clear worshiper of Talos, and Balgruf remains one, both of whom support the Empire.

 

There is clear evidence that the Empire is not particularly fond of the Talos Ban, even if we don't include all the symbolism and non-explicit arguments that they would reverse it should they gain a clear upper hand in the cold-war against the Dominion.

 

As for the Highrock question... I think it's less about creating a new Empire, and more about Ulfric being desperate. He has no allies outside of Skyrim, and no supply lines. Meanwhile, the Empire can and does funnel resources through their loyal Holds from both Cyrodiil and Highrock. Ulfric may be a moron, but he's not stupid, he knows that if he can gain control of, or at least deny his enemy some of those resources, his chances of victory would be far better.

 

Of course, after the Reach indecent, i don't know how he ever expects to get support of the Bretons in Highrock... "So, i know i committed an act of genocide against your relatives in the Reach, but if you guys could betray the empire and side with me, that would be swell."

 

Whether Ulfric really did commit genocide is a matter for debate. The argument from that book could, for all we know, be pure propaganda. I'm guessing that Ulfric did some unsavoury things during his "conquest" of Markarth, but I'm not entirely sure if it was genocide. Also, would the average High Rock breton see the Reachmen as kin? I personally think they would see them as uncivilised, dirty barbarians considering the feudal, Medieval-ish culture of High Rock.

 

Ulfric's exact involvement with the Thalmor isn't something that can be really known. All that can be known is that he broke under their torture once and was in some kind of contact with them pre-Markarth Incident.

[AlduinWorldEater]

My opinion is that Ulfric AND Tullius are both Thalmor puppets. The Elves use Tullius to enforce their laws, which they write as they please with no desire to explain themselves...

 

And honestly, they're a bit hypocritical. They ban the worship of Talos because he was once a man, and yet if you read into Elven mythology, Auri-El (otherwise known as Akatosh) was once an Elf who ascended to godhood.

 

As for Ulfric...the Thalmor would LOVE to see the Empire fall apart, and that's exactly what would happen if Ulfric were to claim the throne of Skyrim.

 

Basically, the Thalmor win no matter who wins the Civil War. If the Empire wins, they can continue manipulating the human races to do their will. If the Stormcloaks win, the Empire begins to crumble, and the Thalmor can work on completely eradicating or enslaving men as they see fit.

[Rooker75]

black06, I think you're probably right. He's looking around for allies, though why he'd expect Bretons to help is beyond me. I've read a lot of the lore and Nords and Bretons have a pretty ugly history. Read up on the battle for Sancre Tor, for instance.

 

Lachdonin, unless I'm mistaken, High Rock Bretons don't care for Reach Bretons any more than Nords do. They probably wouldn't care one way or the other what Ulfric did to them.

[Lachdonin]

Ok, since doing quotes here would be too time consuming, and i'm not actually supposed to be on my laptop right now, i'll do this thusly...

 

First, the genocide thing... Genocide is a peculiar term. Technically, the only people we believe have actually committed Genocide are the Mongols, and even then there is ongoing debate. I used the term in more of a satyracle manner, trying to emphasize the general absurdity of Ulfric's attempted discourse with a nation of the enemy. As for the Bretons not being overly fond of their Reach cousins... The Bretons tend towards a divided, duke-based organizations, with Bretons from Daggerfall not being particularly fond of those from Wayrest. Their really about as surly and divided as... well... Everyone but the High Elves... who are just surly...

 

Second, the Thalmor don't get to write laws for the Empire whenever they please. They are in Skyrim for a single purpose (legally) and that is to see to it that the terms of the White Gold Concordant are enforced, something we're told the Empire wasn't particularly keen to bother with. Tullius is no more a puppet of the Thalmor than the President of the USA is a puppet of (insert country here) for (insert treaty here). Ulfric, likewise, can't be considered a puppet, as he doesn't do what he's told. He's easily manipulated, but that's something else entirely.

 

Now, the Talos thing... Talos and Auri-El are two very, VERY different boats, at least in this regard (Surprise! Their the same person/god!). Auri-El, in the myth you referance, was a Mer, who REGAINED divinity. The key here is that the Mer believe themselves to be descended from gods. They lost their divinity in the creation of mundus, leaving them as mortals. Men, on the other hand, were CREATED on Mundus as mortals. The opposition to the Talos thing is because some Mer (mostly just the Thalmor... in fact the Dunmer kinda idolize Talos... in the usual grumpy Dunmer way) find it absurd that something that was never divine to begin with could become divine. Of course, they don't know about Lorkhan all up in their shiz, stealing their CHIM.

 

 

***

 

Hah, i just happened upon a real world comparison (though reversed) which summaries the Markarth Incident. the First Crusade! When Christian crusaders captured Jerusalem, they killed every Muslim man, woman and child they could find. When the Muslim's took the city several years later, they let the Christian inhabitants leave (though, admittedly, many died on the long trek back to Christian Europe). When the Reachmen took Markarth, based on the book and the scattered comments by Reachmen and veterans of the Incident alike, it was largely non-violent and quick. They didn't really kill many people, and just drove those few Nords who had power (like the Jarl and the Silverbloods) out of the city. Now, when Ulfric retook the city, he set about slaughtering every Reachman, woman and child he could, though a few select prisoners got thrown in Chidna Mine.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find someone (with the slightest mote of intelegence, anyway...) who wouldn't condemn the Crusaders for their treatment of Muslims, so condemnation of Ulfric's actions should be just as clear. To us... anyway... The Bretons may see things differently....

 

In fact, this is something of a useless rant, that i don't really want to delete for the time i put into thinking it up...

Edited August 6, 2013 by Lachdonin

[BloodrendX001]

Ok, since doing quotes here would be too time consuming, and i'm not actually supposed to be on my laptop right now, i'll do this thusly...

 

First, the genocide thing... Genocide is a peculiar term. Technically, the only people we believe have actually committed Genocide are the Mongols, and even then there is ongoing debate. I used the term in more of a satyracle manner, trying to emphasize the general absurdity of Ulfric's attempted discourse with a nation of the enemy. As for the Bretons not being overly fond of their Reach cousins... The Bretons tend towards a divided, duke-based organizations, with Bretons from Daggerfall not being particularly fond of those from Wayrest. Their really about as surly and divided as... well... Everyone but the High Elves... who are just surly...

 

Second, the Thalmor don't get to write laws for the Empire whenever they please. They are in Skyrim for a single purpose (legally) and that is to see to it that the terms of the White Gold Concordant are enforced, something we're told the Empire wasn't particularly keen to bother with. Tullius is no more a puppet of the Thalmor than the President of the USA is a puppet of (insert country here) for (insert treaty here). Ulfric, likewise, can't be considered a puppet, as he doesn't do what he's told. He's easily manipulated, but that's something else entirely.

 

Now, the Talos thing... Talos and Auri-El are two very, VERY different boats, at least in this regard (Surprise! Their the same person/god!). Auri-El, in the myth you referance, was a Mer, who REGAINED divinity. The key here is that the Mer believe themselves to be descended from gods. They lost their divinity in the creation of mundus, leaving them as mortals. Men, on the other hand, were CREATED on Mundus as mortals. The opposition to the Talos thing is because some Mer (mostly just the Thalmor... in fact the Dunmer kinda idolize Talos... in the usual grumpy Dunmer way) find it absurd that something that was never divine to begin with could become divine. Of course, they don't know about Lorkhan all up in their shiz, stealing their CHIM.

 

 

***

 

Hah, i just happened upon a real world comparison (though reversed) which summaries the Markarth Incident. the First Crusade! When Christian crusaders captured Jerusalem, they killed every Muslim man, woman and child they could find. When the Muslim's took the city several years later, they let the Christian inhabitants leave (though, admittedly, many died on the long trek back to Christian Europe). When the Reachmen took Markarth, based on the book and the scattered comments by Reachmen and veterans of the Incident alike, it was largely non-violent and quick. They didn't really kill many people, and just drove those few Nords who had power (like the Jarl and the Silverbloods) out of the city. Now, when Ulfric retook the city, he set about slaughtering every Reachman, woman and child he could, though a few select prisoners got thrown in Chidna Mine.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find someone (with the slightest mote of intelegence, anyway...) who wouldn't condemn the Crusaders for their treatment of Muslims, so condemnation of Ulfric's actions should be just as clear. To us... anyway... The Bretons may see things differently....

 

In fact, this is something of a useless rant, that i don't really want to delete for the time i put into thinking it up...

 

Talos/Shor and Aurie-El/Akatosh are the same....? Unless you're referring to them being basically aspects of the Godhead (very important aspects at that) I've no clue what you're talking about. Also, what exactly do we know of the attitudes towards "genocide" in Tamriel (does the concept even exist in Tamriel)? I'm guessing that it would vary from region to region, race to race, culture to culture, whose being killed. etc.

Edited August 6, 2013 by BloodrendX001