We get so screwed over...

[Lachdonin]

When I started the game, I assumed I'd always have a choice. And that was true for a long time--until I got to Markarth and wound up in the Abandoned House with the deadric price who was offering no option but to kill somebody. That pretty much spoiled the game for me. I thought about it awhile and couldn't get past it; if I killed the guy just to continue on with the game, I'd no longer find much fun in playing the game. So I killed my guy.

 

I started a new game with Skyrim and never set foot in Markarth. And I've been careful (maybe paranoid, I dunno) about getting involved with anything that looked like it might wind up ugly. Much later, I was told about some mods that allowed the player to end the ugly quests honorably (3 of them, anyway), so I'll probably wind up trying some of those quests when they show up in my Journal again.

 

 

I have a whee problem with this... First, i fully accept the fact that you're not given a choice in the matter (aside from not going into the house, of course). The problem i have is, really, with people having a problem with it.

 

This is Molag Bal we're talking about here, the god of slavery, rape and submission. You don't have a choice because it's supposed to be about subverting your will. You're given an illusion of choice where you can't possibly do anything but what Molag Bal wants. Either you kill the Vigilant, or he kills your, either way, Molag wins.

 

In my mind, the quest was masterfully done for something so very short. It conveyed the absolute futility of opposition and the utter powerlessness that Molag is all about. It's one of the best Daedric quests ever, really.

 

** I feel i need to elaborate slightly... Molag isn't just about making you do what HE wants, he's about forcing you to live with the knowledge of that moment of impotence. Take Serana, for instance. She gained immeasurable power by becoming a Daughter of Cold Harbour, but to do so she had to offer herself completely to the will of Molag Bal. She don't talk about what he made her do, of course, but it's knowledge she has to live with, potentially for eternity. The quest in Markarth is as much about making you live with the horrible thing you were powerless to stop as it is making you powerless to stop it.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Lachdonin

[Anska]

I see what you mean about Molag Bal. I hadn't thought about it that way and I have to agree that forcing the character in a situation where s/he has no choice but to submit to Molag Bal's will is fitting for the quest.

 

However I, as a player, would still like to be given options of dealing with the situation even if I don't get a real choice - they don't even have to be successful, they just have to exist. For example I would have less of a problem with the Molag Bal quest, if he started to mock me shamelessly and with ascending spitefulness every time I tried to calm-spell the Vigilant or broke a lock-pick on the door. It's not that I eventually have to do what Molag Bal wants, which makes the quest so frustrating for me, it's that I have ideas how to deal with the situation and can't even put the most obvious ones into action or they have no effect in the game whatsoever. Additionally I think it would have gotten the point that Molag Bal breaks your character's will across much better, if you actually could try out some options to get out of the house without killing the Vigilant but none of them worked.

 

In this regard, I think Hircine's quest is my favorite daedric quest in the game. You can keep up a heroic "I will defy you evil spirit" act during the whole quest and in the end, he just laughs at you because in your attempt to defy him, you just gave him what he wanted from the start.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Anska

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I have a whee problem with this... First, i fully accept the fact that you're not given a choice in the matter (aside from not going into the house, of course). The problem i have is, really, with people having a problem with it.

 

This is Molag Bal we're talking about here, the god of slavery, rape and submission. You don't have a choice because it's supposed to be about subverting your will. You're given an illusion of choice where you can't possibly do anything but what Molag Bal wants. Either you kill the Vigilant, or he kills your, either way, Molag wins.

 

In my mind, the quest was masterfully done for something so very short. It conveyed the absolute futility of opposition and the utter powerlessness that Molag is all about. It's one of the best Daedric quests ever, really.

 

** I feel i need to elaborate slightly... Molag isn't just about making you do what HE wants, he's about forcing you to live with the knowledge of that moment of impotence. Take Serana, for instance. She gained immeasurable power by becoming a Daughter of Cold Harbour, but to do so she had to offer herself completely to the will of Molag Bal. She don't talk about what he made her do, of course, but it's knowledge she has to live with, potentially for eternity. The quest in Markarth is as much about making you live with the horrible thing you were powerless to stop as it is making you powerless to stop it.

 

 

I have enough situations where I feel like I have no choice or power over them in real life to where I don't need a game to add to that... not that I have a lot of them personally, but I never thought to myself, "Man, I need some more situations that suck and that I can do practically nothing about."

 

I also don't need an explanation of the daedric princes as I understand them well enough for myself. Meaning that to my characters of good alignment, most of those beings are evil. So yeah, Molag may be about this and that, but it doesn't mean he should automatically succeed in getting what he wants... especially against the dragonborn.

 

I get tired of evil being so damned unstoppable and the good guys either being victims or they work in ways so subtle it's like they're useless. I, should have ways to truly defy any and all the daedric princes. Period. I set out to do something good, no matter how hard it is, I should be able to do good in the situation.

 

Serana chose to worship evil and did what was expected of her, but my good aligned character and this other guy who is trying to do right just end up as victims? Man, Vigilants suck and being the Dragonborn clearly isn't all that special it seems aside from you learn a language easily, lol. That's like being born in as an English speaker but you can learn Spanish instantly just by hearing it, haha.

 

And if I try to avoid a quest, I shouldn't need a freakin mod to remove it from my list.

 

Bottom line, I enjoy the game overall, but please don't act like it doesn't make sense when people don't like these situations. You're entitled to your opinion, but if you want to be technical, your opinion makes less sense to have a problem with those that have a problem with this sort of thing.

 

It is one thing to accept that you have to do something you don't want to do, it's another thing to be okay with that. I may have to punish my son for misbehaving, but it doesn't mean I am okay with that as I'd prefer he not put me in that situation.

[Relativelybest]

To be honest, I don't even like joining the war effort since you have to swear loyalty in life AND in death to whoever you're joining and you know in TES those "and in death" oaths are literally binding.

 

You can totally betray your innitial faction and join the other side, though, oaths be damned. I did that when I realized I kinda didn't want to be a Stormcloak after all.

 

Swearing loyalty in life and death sounds nice and dramatic and all, but it only works if you're actually loyal. The reason oaths are seen as important is because they are based on trust - you can't force anyone to be loyal to you, because that's not what loyalty is. You have to actually trust them not to stab you in the back.

[StayFrosty05]

The problem with Molag Bal and a number of other Daedric Quests is how the vanilla game keeps trying to shove them down your throat....Molag Bal's is a perfect example of this...if you don't want to enter the House you have to take special care to avoid being anywhere near the Vigilant or he will have you constantly tabbing out as he grabs you in dialog continuously..."No" apparently is not an acceptable answer....plus more unwanted clutter in your quest log is annoying. Personally I don't have an issue with killing the Vigilant if my character does enter the House...he attacks, my character defends himself...plus I tend to play a Werewolf, so one less Vigilant in the world is no skin off his furry nose... :tongue: ....What does bug the hell out of me though is the forced game play, "No" doesn't work with Molag Bal either...when you tell him to go jump that should really clear the Quest from the Journal as 'failed'....Yes, I know I can just "ignore" the journal entry, though that becomes a little harder when the idiot Priest Bal wants you to get is standing there between you and the Dibellan Child in her cage when you rescue her and you have to deal with the Priest first to get to the child.... :dry: ...not cool Bethesda.... :dry: ....Thank god for Mods like Krytopyr's 'The Choice is Yours', which means just that, if you want the Quest you can pick it up or avoid it without having to give half the NPC's in Skyrim a wide berth to avoid 'rumors', forced dialogs, etc... :smile:

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

 

You can totally betray your innitial faction and join the other side, though, oaths be damned. I did that when I realized I kinda didn't want to be a Stormcloak after all.

 

How? Did you do this with or without a mod and or console command?

 

 

Thank god for Mods like Krytopyr's 'The Choice is Yours', which means just that, if you want the Quest you can pick it up or avoid it without having to give half the NPC's in Skyrim a wide berth to avoid 'rumors', forced dialogs, etc... :smile:

 

Ain't this the truth? Lol. Looking back at my days before this mod, i's comical thinking of times my good alignment character that hates thievery would take a deep breath outside of Riften and walk unusual paths to get to nearby places trying desperately to avoid Brynjoff... or Markath, HAHA, the way I would take a deep breath, walk in and the bolt to try to avoid getting that guy telling me I dropped a note that I didn't Hahah.

 

Oh... those were the days. Days I dreaded.

 

But you know I agree with the rest of what you said as well.

[ruvuk]

 

I have a whee problem with this... First, i fully accept the fact that you're not given a choice in the matter (aside from not going into the house, of course). The problem i have is, really, with people having a problem with it. . . . This is Molag Bal we're talking about here, the god of slavery, rape and submission. You don't have a choice because it's supposed to be about subverting your will.

 

Would you be surprised to know that I considered your line of reasoning b4 killing my guy and ending the game? I think you're right about how the intended result of this quest might have been a sobering-up of the player's understanding of the dragonborn's place in the world. (I know I'm generalizing in a big way here.)

 

But I decided not to accept Molag Bal at face value. Sure, Molag Bal is evil and after my guy, but what about my daedric champions--Meridia (go forth with "certitude"), Azura (watching over me), Akatosh (who stuck me with the whole dragonborn mess in the first place), and probably others whom I've forgotten just now.

 

After some consideration, it was actually pretty easy for me to judge Molag Bal as loser in the pantheon of aedra and daedra. How utterly *petty* can a big, bad evil prince get? His goal (for a chuckle?) is to crush my belief and trust in the better side of Skyrim? Did he win? Nope. I decided that the game was off the tracks with Molag Bal and chose to take my guy's life rather than submit to Molag Bal. A terrible price, but one I was willing to pay to thumb my nose at Bolag Mal.

 

When it comes to serious, genuine rot in Skyrim--where ethical and moral sloth allow for all kinds of ugliness--I think the most serious problem is found in the pervasive nastiness of so many of the characters. Sure, the developers were wanting lots of provocations to make for lots of fighting. But there's a ton of just plain gratuitous nastiness (unrelated to any conflict) that can really wear you down sometimes. One of the reasons I think I like traveling around Skyrim on foot is that I get a break from having to listen to all of the petty fussing and ugliness. (Sure, there are some wolves and trolls and such out in the wilds, but I can outrun most of them now. And it's a LOT of fun to see how far you can get a troll to chase you b4 he gives up or you get busy with something and have to leave him.)

 

Bottom line: The daedric prince Molag Bal cannot bring down a stout-hearted Dragonborn.

[Anska]

 

 

 

You can totally betray your innitial faction and join the other side, though, oaths be damned. I did that when I realized I kinda didn't want to be a Stormcloak after all.

 

How? Did you do this with or without a mod and or console command?

 

You can do it without mods or consol (I can't get the spoiler tags to work atm and as it's not the topic of the thread I wouldn't want to spoil the option for player who like to figure it out themselves - you can look it up in the uesp though). The ck suggests that originally several other options to switch sides were considered but didn't make it into the final game - I guess because the CW already is rather complex as it is.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

 

 

 

You can totally betray your innitial faction and join the other side, though, oaths be damned. I did that when I realized I kinda didn't want to be a Stormcloak after all.

 

How? Did you do this with or without a mod and or console command?

 

You can do it without mods or consol (I can't get the spoiler tags to work atm and as it's not the topic of the thread I wouldn't want to spoil the option for player who like to figure it out themselves - you can look it up in the uesp though). The ck suggests that originally several other options to switch sides were considered but didn't make it into the final game - I guess because the CW already is rather complex as it is.

 

 

I am amazed that anyone figured that out because why? I never knew. Guess it never occurred to me that I could betray someone in the game after taking an oath especially when you get a fail message for the other side once taking said oath.Hmmmm. Thanks for the info though and after that one time, you are locked in.

 

And you're right, I went off topic, my bad... but getting back on topic, technically in reference to what was being responded to when this was said, this isn't true. The other person was just saying that when you take an oath, in lore it is truly binding and breaking it often has dire questions that will pursue you even into the afterlife which is why thy prefer not to take a side in the civil war and I can see that point.

 

Bottom line is that the game can feel linear at times you really wish it didn't (in my opinion anyway) so too often you end up feeling screwed or like WTF sometimes.

[Anska]

Please don't get me wrong, that wasn't meant to be a reprimand at all, but simply an explanation for why I gave you an incomplete answer to your question. Neither do I think you went off topic as far as the discussion goes. It's just that I assume that people who read this topic know they are in for spoilers abou the daedric quests and possibly the tg and the db, they still might have the cw a head of them though and I didn't want to ruin it for anyone, who prefers to find out this type of thing on their own. So no offense taken or meant. ( and this reply was totally ot but I rather clear up misunderstandings in the threads where they occur than in pns)