Can magic really compete with traditional weapons?

[ruvuk]

Hi, everybody.

 

I'd like to ask about something that probably sounds like an easy question (or maybe just a new-guy question), but I've been playing long enough now that I think it's a legit issue.

 

Can magic really compete with the traditional, physical weapons like bows and swords?

 

Earlier, I just assumed that the game would allow the player to pick any of the Skills he or she liked and eventually fight as well with them as with any of the other options.

 

Sure, there are some obvious differences among the weapons. For example, a bow will have inherent advantages over swords when fighting at a distance. But that's not the sort of difference that I'm asking about here.

 

Could a player who had truly mastered magic (both having the spells and knowing when and how to use them to greatest effect) compete with a player who had mastered the non-magical weapons?

 

I'm asking because my guy has gotten up to Level 50 and now has all of the Master Spells. I was expecting that, once I'd gotten savvy to the use of the Master spells, I'd be able to fight as with magic as well as I fight with swords and the bow. But I can't.

 

I use a lot of magic. But when the fighting really gets going, I always have to revert to the physical weapons. I still have some problems running out of Magica, but I think that's mostly because I just use the Wards more than I really need to.

 

My BIG puzzle about fighting with magic is what the heck's wrong with the Expert Level spells. The Master spells really take too long to channel to use them much during fighting. Plus, it's pretty easy for the bad guys to disrupt the channeling of a Master spell. While I really like some of the Master spells and use them frequently, I think I'm pretty much stuck with the Expert spells once the fighting gets going. And, well, frankly, the Expert level spells are just not all that strong.

 

I'm using a really nice mod by 1LastShot called "Truly Balanaced Destruction Magic (link below)," and it helps for sure, but I'm still using my swords and/or bow when the fighting gets hard.

 

If I'm missing out on something important here, I'd really appreciate hearing about it from one of you guys. Or, if the concensus is that the game's magic isn't as strong as the game's weapons, it'd be good for me to know that, too.

 

Also, . . . just in case it changes things, . . . when I talk about using weapons, I'm talking about using seriously maxed-out weapons. I upgrade my weapons Smithing Experience at 100 with some of the Smithing perks. And I double-enchant everything I have with Enchanting Experience at 100 and all of the Enchanting perks. So my weapons (and armor) wind up pretty darn amazing. :smile:

 

Thanks for reading.

 

All responses are genuinely welcome (even the flames :smile:).

 

 

 

Truly Balanced Destruction Magic by 1LastShot:

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/10003

 

 

[StayFrosty05]

I believe it's more so how you utilize what you have than anything....and the difficulty you play on, as Skyrim's difficulty system is seriously borked, the higher the difficulty the less damage you put out while receiving more damage in return, thus my preference is Expert for a more realistic equalizing of damage both ways (Adept is more so, though too easy) and use Mods to make my game much more challenging.

 

As for how you utilize what you have, I have to admit I very rarely play Magic Users....but I do run a very handicapped Light Armored Archer (No Magic at all including Restoration, no Healing Potions or Skill Buffers, never uses Enchanted items of any sort)...he can't afford to go into close quarter combat, has to do everything he can to avoid it and I play Perma Death...my Dovahkin rarely takes any damage at all. He does this by relying completely on strategy, tactics, agility, speed (dodges and/or Bow bashes most incoming damage)...and Poisons... :tongue:

 

You need to play to your strengths and I have noted the few times I have played a Mage 'Illusion' is absolutely invaluable....what's needed for a squishy character is Crowd Control. I played a 'Pacifist' at one stage, she only used 'Illusion' and 'Restoration' and a little 'Alteration'..also high Stealth and Pick Pocket...she survived very well....the 'Illusion' was her prime defense and it worked well....admittedly I used a Mod to give Illusion a little more strength and duration...I found when playing Mages, destruction in both hands doesn't work that well, as a squishy you have to get too close to the opponent/s and put yourself in danger...I would suggest something along the lines of cast Fear/Calm/Frenzy (or stronger versions of the same)...then equip a Dagger or Light Shield in your block hand to parry or block/bash incoming damage, with your Destruction Spell equipped in your other hand....casting the Illusion first is your Crowd Control and gives you the opportunity to whittle your targets down to one at a time instead of being swarmed....If you do get swarmed at any stage, fight off the back foot, keep backing up forcing them to follow you and make them string out into a line in front of you so your only battling one at a time....is easier outdoors obviously.... :tongue: ....unless you choose a single file only tunnel to stand your ground. For indoors I would suggest adding Traps to your Mod list....use stealth to lay down Oil Traps coupled with Bear Traps at choke points.....and once the enemy are alerted to your presence lead them back over the Traps....the Bear Traps slow them down and hit the Oil with your Flames, works wonders.... :devil:

 

I hope this helps.

[pheo3309]

Well, it's like how I stated in my other post on the topic you created for mage advice, it's all in how you use spells in combination with each other. Sometimes I'll dual cast, other times I'll have one spell school in one hand and a different one in the other. In my experience, the magic can actually be stronger depending on how you use it tactic wise. Master spells are more ritualistic than the others. Or at least that's how it feels. They're the longest to cast and they take out a huge portion of your Magicka bar. The benefit from them is a massive AoE. I use it usually as a Coup de Grace with a buttload of enemies around and I have them pegged at a quarter health and I have no other alternative. They're not to be slung around like much of the other spells.

 

One way that they're more powerful than weapons is the fact that they're universal in most cases, meaning that the effects can carry over a large variety of different enemies. Some ignore the effects while the majority of enemy NPCs are affected. For instance ice spells will slow an enemy down. That gives you a chance. The other is when you have your perks lined up right. Now back in my post with the advice using perks makes the damage go up, casting magicka points go down, and more effects branched into your spells. Another thing is equipment. Mages are squishy puppies, especially with what they're limited with. If you use heavy armor, your casting won't be as good as cloth. There's a perk for that too however.

 

Another way is the fact that spells used in combinations can meet different effects. For instance if you're low on health after casting an Expert spell and you have JUST enough to cast an invisibility spell, I'd do so. Use that time to replenish your bar levels and go at them again. Sure, they heal, but a weakened mage is a dead mage. One thing to always make sure you have is enough Magicka potions and the ability to craft them. Alchemy is VERY vital. Another is enchanting. You want your Magicka meter to meet the requirements for a master spell and at least able to cast a lower level spell. Mine I always make sure I can cast a master and Invisibility. I know I use it a lot, I also use a lot of the potions. It definitely applies to tactic. Wards are good, but Invisibility is better to quickly get out of a situation that you're not expecting to turn against you.

 

Now while I've given reasons as of why they CAN be more powerful, weapons can be just as devastating in regards to tactic. They don't have wards and they don't have very many spells usually. But a mage who can use both efficiently is even deadlier from my experience. I'll give you an example... When you make a rogue/mage... Generally speaking people think they'd suck horrendously. From my experience from playing on Legendary with a level 15, with enough sneak and enough magic perks to put under my belt I've effectively taken out a few things with a bow through sneak damage and a few hits since they couldn't spot me. But when I can't kill them with the bow and become spotted, I instantly switch to my spells. Normally ice spells. Sometimes shock. But I always have either Invisibility or a restoration spell in my other hand. Dual casting has it's benefits, but it really can hinder a mage in terms of tactic. This is how weapons can also be stronger than magic.

 

People may disagree, but I'd have to have themselves really ask and answer to themselves: How do you play the game and how well do your tactics apply? I've played both a melee character and a mage. I've always felt more comfortable with a mage being of the experimentation with different spell combinations. Morrowind and Oblivion you could only have one spell equipped at a time, so with those systems I buffed before going into an area. I had a lot of created spells as well that did just the trick, and mind you I kept it balanced. xD Now with the magic casting system we have in Skyrim, there's a whole new ballgame in terms of casting and capability. I was butthurt when I found out that they ganked the spellmaking system. But then when I actually got the game and started playing (first on Xbox and since I love mods I broke down and bought it for the PC), I noticed something peculiar about it... That I felt that they were leaving mage players to experiment with this new system that they've brought out. I do think it needs to be more balanced. I also think that the mods around for re-balancing magic in general needs re-balancing themselves. Nothing so far has made me happy in terms of that, being that there's so many ways to play a character. There's no real way to balance tactic, and that's what this system has brought. I can't deny that aspect of it. In fact, a lot of the re-balanced mods I've tested on various difficulty settings and I found that while the damage was balanced, I could easily kill something by changing my tactic. Even with enhanced AI mods, it's all about the tactic.

 

I also agree with StayFrosty... Illusion is an invaluable ally. It can make a puppy mage turn pro. But for that puzzle that's been bothering you: In my opinion, it's not the spell that's at fault. It's usually tactic and how/when you use them. Higher level spells aren't always needed for the job. Sometimes Apprentice and Novice spells do the job just as good if not better.

 

Edit: As for flames, it's way off topic, but I'm really loving this mod here. It's nothing about balance, but it does add to the immersion of pyromancy! :D Even if there's a little flickering.

Edited August 31, 2013 by pheo3309

[StayFrosty05]

That's a brilliant point about equipping 'Restoration' or 'Invisibility' in your off hand rather than a Shield, much better...shows how often I play a Mage, I am not thinking outside the box with them.... :pinch:

[ruvuk]

Great to find so much info here . . . esp. because a lot of this stuff about using magic is new to me. I'm going to have to work through some of this stuff one piece at a time to really see what you guys are talking about. (Working through new stuff slowly also helps me keep it sorted out. :smile:)

 

What I'm hearing is that magic works just as well as physical weapons for you guys. I needed to know that so I'd keep pushing to better learn how to use the magic. Just getting the feel for using a lot of this magic has turned out to be a bigger job than anything I'd expected. Usually, it's just as effective and much easier for me to use physical weapons, so I typically have to make learning some of this magic stuff a personal sort of quest. :smile: Something like that, anyway.

 

It will take me some time, but I'll post here again to let you guys know how I did with your advice and other help.

 

Thanks a lot for taking the time to help me here.

[pheo3309]

Most of my deaths on a mage was usually due to not having a defensive spell or a restoration spell at the ready. Haha! It was trial and error for me, especially playing on Legendary. I like playing on Legendary, but dragons are just brutal. Especially on mountains. I had to resort to shouts, spells, and weapons doused with poisons to effectively down them. I find that a mage needs weapons at times. There's virtually no way around it sometimes. Mine loves his bows, daggers, scimitars, and longwords. As well as staves, but those I mainly use for Magelight or Candlelight. Haha!

 

And any time Ruvuk! I've been tempted to type out do's and don'ts for mages a few times, but I wouldn't know where to post it here on the Nexus as it's not really a mod or a modder's tutorial. Not to mention I wouldn't know how to keep it where it can be found easily, especially on the forums. D: Good news is, I've been following/tracking these topics because I know that scenarios are very different. So I look at them and put myself in the frame of mind for them and tell them how I'd do it. It's the most practical way I've found so far. :D But keep asking away! Heck, I ask questions even for Morrowind and I know every nook and cranny about that game. xD

[blacksupernova]

I usually play mage at the start of the game, focusing on destruction, restoration and conjuration. Conjuration is a big help since summoned creatures are affected by difficulties, they take little damage from opponents on Legendary (and also deal little damage, but that's another matter). The good thing about being a mage is that you have access and able to cast very powerful spell even at the start of the game, notably the expert conjuration spells: Conjure Storm Atronach at any level and Conjure Wrathman at level 10. Those are very powerful allies as they have good damage output and durability, and since they take all the attention from the enemies, I just need to stay in the distance, cast destruction spell, wait for magicka recharge, do it again until all die. As a mage, I never have to use weapon or poison, just a couple of healing potions at an extreme situation. And I don't even have any magic balance mod. Frankly, whenever I use those mod, I felt my mage become too overpower.

 

So yes, my answer is a (vanilla) mage can really compete with traditional weapon, even more so if you know to use them

[ruvuk]

@blacksupernova: You wrote, "Those are very powerful allies as they have good damage output and durability, and since they take all the attention from the enemies, I just need to stay in the distance, cast destruction spell, wait for magicka recharge, do it again until all die." So, you're saying that you use the Storm Atronachs and other summoned helpers to mostly distract the bad guys while you stay back and kill off the bad guys as quickly as your magicka recharging allows? I'd never thought about doing it that way. I've got the Master Conjuration spells now, but I've been really underwhelmed by the creatures I can conjure up. (Big let down, actually.) But I can see how using them for decoys might work really well. <lol> Thanks for that!

 

About overpowered mages . . . frankly, it's hard for me to imagine that. One of the dandy things about the Stealth skill is that there's a perk that'll give you triple damage for you bow. That's HUGE. And my bows are improved and enchanted to the max. (I always focus on the smithing and enchanting first.) So . . . <GRIN> . . . if I'm careful and patient, I can sometimes sneak up on a roosting dragon and take him out with ONE arrow! <lol>

 

My point about the 1-arrow hits is just that my traditional weapons set the bar really high when I'm trying to improve how well I can fight with magic.

 

I'd LOVE to play at the Legendary level, but I keep getting killed when I try, and I don't even understand what happened. My best example was a time when there were 3 Foresworn after me. This was just one of the small encounters that pop up that make traveling around Skyrim fun. I wasn't paying close attention to the Foresworn (I was 100% not worried about them) and I was a little distracted trying to figure out something else . . . and--surprise!--I'm dead. Huh?! I even went back and replayed that part, hoping to figure out what happened, but no luck. I paid attention and easily killed the 3 Foresworn. So I dunno. I've put off playing Legendary 'til I can figure out what's really different at that level.

 

@pheo3309: I'm going to try every single trick you talk about . . . <lol> . . . but it'll take me awhile (doing them one bit at a time) . . . but I could use some advice about Invisibility if you're still reading . . . I have Invisibility spells and potions, but I never use them because I can't do anything after I'm invisible. Heck, I can't even open a darn door!

 

I'd like to use Invisibility to get the incriminating evidence against the Steward of the Jarl sitting in Riften; this is one of the Civil War quests on the Imperial side. (I don't have the game open as I type this.) There always seem to be a half dozen guards and others in and out of the hallway behind the throne where I need to go to find the evidence. I've managed to do this quest w/o too much blundering, but I usually manage to stir things up and having to fight my way out of the place. <lol>

 

When thinking about using invisibility for this quest, my best plan so far is to enter Mistveil Keep visible, enter the side room where the Wizard has her shop, then go invisible and walk to the door of the Steward's room . . . I'll wait 'til nobody's at that end of the hall and open the door. I think that'll work. But I'd be happy to have any advice you might be able to offer. :o)

 

Tx.

[pheo3309]

Now for quests like that and invisibility, it's rough. I'll be the first to admit that. One thing that helped me was Sneak Tools. Causing a distraction so I can slip through to where I need to be, get what I need to get, and then chug a potion or cast a spell quickly. One thing about the environment and how mages use it, is also by sound. The main thing about invisibility is to get out of a sticky situation when being attacked. For the rest I just rely on my stealth skill. But I've been known to use all three in conjunction. For instance when I use my invisibility spell, I'll be crouched so I can sneak right by. When it wears off, they rarely see me. But then again I try and level up all my skills, but I keep my perks mainly on what I'm using the most offensively and defensively and sparingly. This way I can place a few perk points in Stealth and what ever else I need to for adapting to the leveled lists.

 

So say for my destruction perk tree, I'd have a couple of perks for the elements, max out the levels (novice to master), and a perk or two for runes and dual casting. I put one or two in Restoration to get the casting points down... I haven't put any in Conjuration before, Alchemy I put in quite a bit, same with Enchanting. Illusion I'll get a few, but I never max that out to Master Illusion. I'll circulate perks between the levels of the perk and then the end where it has Quiet Casting though sometimes I don't even pick that up. Just depends on what kind of mage I'm playing. Alteration, if I can, I'll perk up to Mage Armor. But the rest I circulate through my other perk trees. Hopefully this makes sense as it's rather confusing at times. But the way I do this, is that I'll level skills up and hold my Perk Points until I'm at an appropriate level to use them.

 

So back to the scenario, after doing all that, I'd use a combination of sneak and invisibility spells and potions. That's like for the Bee Farm in the Thieves Guild questline, I never had to fight one guy except when I got outside and was on my way back to riften. Dancia sent her mob after me. If I had stayed crouching, I'd have totally evaded them completely. One thing to remember, a mage can have skills other than magic. They're crafty, cunning, and most of all experimenters of the arts. Including the mundane.

 

Edit: And I'm always reading these. I follow topics like these, so I get notifications to them straight away. Haha! But if I don't get to one, you can always drop me a PM too! :D

Edited September 2, 2013 by pheo3309

[pmzq]

My first character in Skyrim was a pure mage. I put pretty much everything into Magicka, and I was running out all the time, and of course, many of the later enemies could one-shot me, especially the archers. Why NPC archers get to do so much damage is beyond me.

 

The thing about Magic vs Weapons is that weapons get more damage multipliers from crafting. Alchemy-Enchanting loop, Enchanting+Alchemy fortify Smithing to improve weapons, enchant them, enchant fortify damage on 4 pieces of gear (amulet, ring, gloves, boots/helmet/cirlcet) for better than 40% each (with fortify enchanting potions), then fortify damage potions. And basic attacking does not cost a resource. If you're sneaking, you can get a x3 with bows, and a x15 with daggers (x30 with the shrouded gloves). Magic can get one or two free schools of magic, or heavily discounted 3 schools, plus fortify damage potions. And the Mage Armor perks are terrible in vanilla, they simply don't increase the value of the armor spells enough and they are obsoleted once you have Dragonhide since that maxes out your damage resistance regardless of whether you took the Mage Armor perks or not. Calm, Fury and Fear spells eventually stop working on high level targets and many enemies are immune anyway until you hit 90 for Master of the Mind. Turn Undead cost too much for what they do, as do wards. Dual Casting also has a higher Magicka cost multiplier than effectiveness multiplier, making it sub par unless you are relying on Impact for Destruction or have serious cost reduction, and it counts as casting one spell for the purposes for experience gain. (I dual-casted a lot with my first mage and leveled very slowly as a result.)

 

Now, Invisibility + Muffle make you essentially undetectable, true. Twin Soul Dremora Lords are awesome, but die a little quickly sometimes. Wards are an effective (if expensive) defense against Draugr with Unrelenting Force, and Dual Casting + Impact means 1 on 1, you pretty much can't lose, so long as your magicka holds out. Throw in heavy cost reduction, and you can last almost indefinitely, but your damage per shot is not as high as a maximized weapon.

 

Personally, I recommend the Better Magic mod, which makes magic scale better and changes the Mage Armor perks to be worth investing in. Staves of Skyrim is also awesome. Not only is it stylish, it has some optional perks to make spellcasting while holding a staff more effective (spells cost less, faster magicka regen that sort of thing).