Can magic really compete with traditional weapons?

[pheo3309]

See, I've never had those problems. Mostly because I don't place everything in Magicka. I always have enough mainly because I cast when I need to. Not to mention mages are more of a support class than a full on, run of the mill, curb stomping warrior. They do have their limitations, but so does melee. Which leads me to correct you on a few things that you're leaving out. It's not about how much damage is dealt. It's about practicality. Of course weapons are going to do more damage, but there's other things that factor in with BOTH paradigms as a whole. And it all revolves around three basic things: Perks, resistances, and tactics which I've discussed in much of the above and the linked topic above. Not to mention certain conditions have to be met for a damage multiplier that high. Perks, pieces of armor, sneaking, potions... The same things that Magicka requires. A few things I'd like to correct you on though:

• Using Dragonhide (a Master Spell) in place of Mage Armor is a mistake in the making. A Master Spell consumes more Magicka than your lower tiers of spells. It also takes more time to cast it. If you look in the linked topic to my other post on Mage Do's and Don'ts, not to mention above, you'll see that I'm highly against always throwing around Master level spells. Mainly because they are a LAST resort tactic. If you need to clear the area of fodder NPCs, heal your allies, or protect yourself when nothing else is doing the job and you need it extended... Mage Armor is just as important if not MORE important than Dragonhide. So I'm disagreeing with you in terms of usage and experience. It's not all based on numbers and this is a very common and sometimes deadly mistake. Using higher tiered spells when it's not needed. Magicka Consumption and how much you use is what makes and breaks a mage. If you're using more than what you need, you're not paying attention to what you need to overcome scenarios. Like I said; A very common and deadly mistake.

 

• Dual Casting vs Spell Combos, Spell Combos will always win. Why? Same point as above. It usually costs the same amount of Magicka as an upper level spell without Perks. Sometimes less, but in the end, the less of Magicka you consume, the more you have to play with. Again, DPS isn't crucial. While it's good to have a higher one, going overkill as a mage is a waste of Magicka. This is why weapons have that added damage bonus. Spells do what they cannot. Hands down. This is why I can't compare the two in terms of numbers, but in terms of tactic. While using numbers to rely on certain things as a margin is good, using them as a guideline in everything will lead to more mistakes. For example. I'm not going to dual cast a healing spell for a quarter of my health being down. I will however cast a higher level spell if half of my health is gone. I won't dual cast anything above Novice unless it's needed or warranted.

 

• "Calm, Fury, and Fear spells eventually stop working on high level targets and many enemies are immune anyway until you hit 90 for Master of the Mind." I have to disagree here. I could suggest a few things here. Fortification potions. Scrolls. I've also never had many enemy NPCs being immune to Illusion. SOME are. Many? No. Not depending on Perk layout and enemy NPC level. Levels are the ONLY immunity aside from undead, Daedra, and automatons. So if you're talking about levels, I can agree with that. If you're talking about actual NPC's being immune, no. I have to disagree. Furthermore there are other Illusion spells at your disposal that I was talking about. Call to Arms, Rally... As far as Muffle goes, it's a wasted spell. If you're a mage and wearing cloth armor and have a decent Stealth with a couple of perks in that, it's a complete waste of Magicka. All the spell does is you move more quietly for 180 seconds. Stealth perks and Illusion Perks do something better in my opinion, not to mention more reliable.

 

• Mage Armor Perks again, above to my point about Dragonhide. They're worth investing in regardless of Dragonhide. They're not obsolete. I never do Magecraft without getting it eventually. Perks are more reliable than spells. By far. This again is why so many people have so many problems playing a caster. Perk vs. Spell.

 

• Bonuses on weapons rely on conditions met. For example: I don't play a Dark Brotherhood character even when melee, so I won't have those gloves. And again, you're using numbers for a full on guideline. While that may be some epic looking number damage wise, the conditions of such numbers will not always be met. Same with spells. Things can and will change on you. Furthermore, Melee characters DO exhaust resources. Stamina not to mention arrows. So I have to disagree with you there completely. And if you want to talk about perks, the same can be applied to Magecraft retrospectively. Both exhaust resources no matter what.

 

• As far Impact goes, there's a required condition; It only affects dual casts... And mages shouldn't really be dual casting all the time if they expect to make their Magicka last. A higher tiered spell would be more suited. At least in my experience, so I disagree according to preference and on the pretenses of using, again, numbers against practicality. Weapons CANNOT do what spells can do. So it's not a debate of damage as that's the reason why weapons DO so much damage. They're mundane. There are times when weapons are better, there are times when they're not. Same with Magecraft. Damage values are one thing. Tactic and practicality is another. And Skyrim REALLY revolves around tactic. More so than it's prequels. A perfect quote comes to mind from Practical Magic from Jet Owens: "And this is what comes from dabbling; I mean you can't practice witchcraft while you look down your nose at it." Same with using damage values in comparison to Magecraft and weaponry. It's about how experienced you are at playing with one, the other, or both. Not just values. Sure they help as an idea of what to use, but I've stomped through many enemies using lower tiered spells on many difficulties including Legendary due to adapting to the situation rather than relying on numbers to do the job for me.

 

Now you may disagree with my statements, and that's fine, but two things, first going back to that quote again and putting it into context of Skyrim and many of the TES games. You can't use spells based on damage fully. That's looking down your nose at Magecraft. The second is your preference. A suggestion if I may, instead of just using values to compare weapons, use the tactics involved. Most of the time they're not comparable because they both can do the same job in the same situation. Most of my disagreements have been through my experiences with Magecraft and Magicka. I've never ran out of Magicka potions, I've ran out of Magicka in my bar, but that was pretty much after I had killed everything or was down to one or two enemy NPCs at that moment (dragons included). Getting rid of the stronger ones and then going after the fodder is one of the oldest and sometimes best tactic there is. Regardless, both are capable of doing the same job effectively. It's all about the proper adaptation for the situation, placement of Perks, what you're wearing, and using the environment around you. Skyrim, game wise, is VERY interactive in this sense. :)

[blacksupernova]

This is what I like about being a mage in Skyrim: It is so versatile and all comes down to play style. One could find some perks, some spells, some magic classes invaluable; other would find them valueless.

[pmzq]

Vigorous debate, Huzzah!

 

Ok, let's see...

 

1. Ebonyflesh + Mage Armor 3 gives you 300 armor, and to hit the cap (80%), you need 667 points of displayed rating. Furthermore, each successive point is worth more until you hit the cap. You may get away with maneuvering most of the time, but Archers can especially ruin your day. I've got a mage with 400 health, 600 armor (thanks to the Better Magic mod I mentioned) and I still get one-shotted sometimes by Draugr Death Overlords on Expert. (Some of that's difficulty, but still...)

 

2. I forgot to mention, the most effective combo I use is Paralysis + Anything. Works on any creature that doesn't fly. I just wish I wasn't almost forced into using it against the really high leveled stuff like Falmer Nightmasters.

 

3. Yes, I meant higher leveled creatures like the Falmer Nightmasters or Bandit Chiefs. This is something that Skyrim does right. It doesn't completely replace the lower leveled stuff at high level, but the fact that even with perk investment, Calm, Fear, and Fury effects stop being applicable against things is kind of annoying. Remind me, does Calm work on all animals with the perk investment? Looking at the UESP it seems that it does against everything but Mammoths, which is useful, admittedly.

 

4. I forgot the 20-100% bonus from perks. I never go Dark Brotherhood either (not even so far as to wipe them out), I was just pointing out just how ridiculous weaponry could get. Melee might expend stamina for Shield bashing, but power attacks are not really necessary most of the time (and like dual casting, cause you to get less experience), whereas Mages require magicka to do anything. Standard attacks cost nothing 2/300 stamina has been sufficient for me when playing a Melee. Also, I've played archers and I don't run out of arrows ever, even when playing a "combat archer" rather than a stealth archer, and so forgoing the Sneak Attack bonus. I also never need to craft any, and never need to use anything better than Steel/Ancient Nord.

 

5. I'm not sure what you mean by "conditions met" , if you're wearing the enchantment and wielding the applicable weapon, it works, and aside from crowd control, and potentially range, damage is what Destruction specifically is all about, and I find it doesn't hold up too well.

 

6. Alright. Please tell me some combos you've used for dealing with Legendary difficulty. I've been wondering about that, since Expert is annoying enough. I'd also like to know how you think, and see if there's some really good stuff I've missed. Maybe you're just the better/cleverer player.

 

Also, some of this is admittedly colored by the fact that I recently installed Skyrim Immersive Creatures and did a play through with it (1-81, about to go Legendary). The amount of high leveled enemies in that mod is crazy and HP totals of over 1000 are pretty common. I had a hard time burning through that sometimes even with more than double base damage from Better Magic. It's been a long time since I played a Vanilla Mage.

[pheo3309]

I don't really see it as a debate, more of just experience sharing. :P Even with me REALLY going through the motions of a mage, I learn something new every day while playing one.

 

1) One thing that most people playing mages do is look at the values and use that rather than what they should be looking at. You're still looking at the values of the spells rather than what you said you needed more of: Magicka. A mage is as only as good as how they cast and in quantity. Using a Master leveled spell for something that is more universal and well rounded to SEVERAL spells, I'd rather take the more universal perk. Also, wards and buffs aren't arrow-proof. Nothing is. It's why Archery is one of the best melee weapons to use. And even more so with a mage.

 

2) High level enemies are tricky. I won't deny that. If you've ever seen Dracula Dead and Loving It, Harker and Van Helsing come back to the Seward mansion. Harker is dripping of blood and there's not a drop on Van Helsing. All because of location, location, location. The environment around you is your BEST ally there is aside from a one handed weapon and Magicka and Health potions. Just because you're a mage, doesn't mean you can't use weapons. I've never played an Elder Scrolls game without using something from either side. But the main thing is the location. Is there corridors? Can you back track? The way I've defeated most high level enemies on every difficulty is using the environment as much as I use a spell. Observation is key as a mage. I look for exits and I slowly move through dungeons. Even towns and houses a lot of the times just in case I do get attacked or have to make an offense.

 

3) Illusion spells of that nature are good when dual casted. I will say that. However: Perks are key in this spell school. If you're meaning Hypnotic Gaze I would think so since the perk says all targets. I haven't tested it against animals though. I just breeze through those with Destruction and ask questions later. Now if you're looking at Animage, yeah. Those are animal specific. As for Hypnotic Gaze, I'd have to test to make sure. My recent play through I haven't gotten that far into my perk trees yet. When I do get to test it and you don't find an answer in the meantime, I'll post back with results. :D

 

4) That's where I still have to disagree. Stamina is very expendable especially when running from an enemy you know you can't face head on. Through my experiences, power attacks take a pretty good portion up until you put more points in Stamina, however, I found that health as a melee character was equally, if not more important. As for archers, I always run out of arrows. Mainly either because I over guess and miss, or because I don't find all of my arrows when I loot the corpses. This is why I had to disagree and still do as there are resources still being exhausted. Both classes do, which was what the initial point was. Whether it's no where near as one or the other is semantic, but they both exhaust resources. And again, everything in regards to damage with weapons is due to conditional circumstances as is Magecraft. Why I can't say one or the other is better and why no one has proven to me either way, is because of tactics used. Not damage dealt. Over the top damage is one thing, but it's not always applicable in every scenario I've come across. And the same with Magecraft. Now how they're used is a different thing entirely and that's were experimentation comes into play.

 

5) Conditions met: For weapons, exponential damage is valued under a certain criteria. Stealth and sneaking is one. Perks is another. Enchantments, enhancements, poisons, armor, weapon rating, stamina, enemy level as well as health levels, AI packaging, there's loads of conditions to look at. Magecraft allows you to bend those things where weapons can't. Mind you this is with vanilla creatures, very few spell mods and even then... I've just been going with Vanilla. The definition of magic is a big key ingredient: which is the act or change through your will. Granted we can't cast what we think up of, but we can alter the conditions that are there. For instance if I were to go against a Bandit Chief the first condition I would alter is his movement. Paralysis and ice spells are a good combo. Also do try and note their weapon enchantment. Use a proper potion for that condition, be it resistance or an extension of Stamina or Magicka, there's always ways around these things. I do happen to always keep some of those of each type with me at all times. Sure, it hinders me weight wise, but that's the sacrifice I'm usually willing to take. It's about manipulating those conditions that I've found they're strangely equal, despite numerical values. Numbers don't tell much about tactic. Conditions do.

 

6) Some combinations I've been known to use, since I DO love me some Shock spells, I use Shock Runes, Cloaks if I have the level to do so, Chain Lightning, in combination with Paralysis, Invisibility (meaning I hit them, go invisible, edge away undetected if possible, rinse and repeat), I'll use Conjuration spells of all levels I can, when I can in combination. Restoration at times, I'll sneak if possible (I always level that up as it's VITAL with any class I've played), it just depends on the enemy, where I'm at, and what I have at my disposal. Not just spell wise, but environmental wise. Walls, trees, anything to put between me and the enemy NPC. They DO miss, I promise. They do. That's on ANY difficulty too. I play the same way on each. Granted I DO get shanked on Legnendary. A lot. I'll be the first to admit that. But everyone does of any class on Legendary. Anyone who says otherwise, I'd ask for proof. xD

 

It's all about thinking on your feet, learning from failed experiences (and sometimes experiments), and seeing what you can do differently. A mage just casting spells for the sake of damage isn't efficient. A mage experiments with their spells, what they can use to make themselves stronger, better, bending the laws around them. Weapons can't do that. That's why weapons have more damage dealt. If spells had that kind of damage, it would be more than game breaking. It'd just be sad and hilarious at the same time (Sorry Lydia). I'll also admit that I do USE both a weapon and magic sometimes. That's if all other options have failed and I don't have enough leeway to cast a master spell or I don't have one to cast. As for the good stuff you may have missed, most people dis the conjuration spells. They're supposed to be the distraction while you sling your enemy with something else, or put some ground between you and the enemy. So in essence, you're not missing anything other than a better solution to the problem. But then again, I've played mages in NwN, WoW, Arena (at least as much of a mage as I could), Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and now Skyrim.

 

As for mods in relation to higher HP enemies and what not, I've yet to install a mod like that being that, well... None have really perked my interest and the fact that they DO have that high of HP is beyond immersion breaking for me. Mainly because I've seen some that even have their 'weak' enemies with HP that would give Alduin a run for his money. I speak mostly in terms of vanilla, except for spell packaging. I will say this, Apocalypse and Dwemerverse spell packages have not only made Magecraft more interesting, but there's even MORE combinations that I haven't fully experimented with. I do get what you're saying. Magecraft in ANY game can be frustrating, and the hugest debate of what's more powerful people base on numerical data. You only see one side of that. You don't see the unknowns. The tactics involved. It's why I don't think they're comparable. Rather that people have a preference of either or. I fail at melee characters. And I build them much how the good melee players have theirs. I always get shanked more than if I'm on a mage. See why I say it's not really a debate, merely it's more of experience sharing of what and how we've played.

[majormittens]

I don't think so, seeing how mages are highly underpowered in the game at late levels unless you download a mod that fixes this issue. But in a standard vanilla version of the game mages are really squishy and the main reason a weapon-wielding character would defeat a mage is because of the raw damage he can dish out whilst being protected from spells via potions and such.

[Bozzz123]

I know all of these guys are going on and on with multiple paragraph posts, but let me sum up my experience with my mage character. Levels 1-35 are very challenging. You must fight for survival. After about level 35 when you have all of the necessary perks I became unstoppable. If you have no problem spamming the fireball spell, and youve got some serious enchantments on your clothing, then magicka doesn't become an issue. I never use enchantments to make my magic costs 0, thats just cheap. Also, if you have that perk that staggers enemies with fire spells, you can just stand back and spam the fireball spell and they will never get close. As for archers and far-away enemies in general, with the fireball spell you really dont need to be a good shot, as the spell is a radius spell. Get a ranged, staggering, radius, and cheap spell and you've got yourself an overpowered mage.

 

Thats just talking about vanilla skyriim, though. With mods, you can basically change the power of mages in almost limitless ways. Thats what I love about mods, they are a way to personalize your game and make it as close to perfect as you can get it.

[majormittens]

Where's the fun in that? Spamming spells is hardly enjoyable, there are no tactics in rushing and spitting fireballs around you. That's just my opinion, I'll start a mage character myself for role-playing purposes but there's no way I'll be only focusing on destruction magic. I do so love to see mages with conjured weapons and a risen undead companion, much more unique. And yeah, mods definitely have a huge effect on mage gameplay.

[blacksupernova]

I wonder why people find it OK to have weapon improved to hundreds damage through enchanting, smithing and alchemy and use that weapon to slash out all enemies in one or two hits but consider having 100% destruction reduction through enchanting and walking around spraying fireballs boring and no tactic? If you take away all crafting skills, that is: weapons and magic only improve damage through relevant skills, you will find how underpowered weapons are compared to magic.

[pheo3309]

I wonder why people find it OK to have weapon improved to hundreds damage through enchanting, smithing and alchemy and use that weapon to slash out all enemies in one or two hits but consider having 100% destruction reduction through enchanting and walking around spraying fireballs boring and no tactic? If you take away all crafting skills, that is: weapons and magic only improve damage through relevant skills, you will find how underpowered weapons are compared to magic.

 

Exactly. The thing that people are forgetting is just that. The relevant skills and the skill of Magecraft adapted gameplay. I still don't feel that Magecraft at lower levels is underpowered as some would say, mainly due to the fact on how Magicka is used and consumed. Even at higher levels, no matter how much you spam, no matter how much of a reduction cost, enemies can just as easily gain the upper hand depending on the difficulty, environment, and what they're using. I've had enemies on all difficulties gain the upper hand due to those conditions and a few more. Especially when going against another mage. It's also why I carry resist element potions.

 

As for protection from spells, there are ways around that. Conjuration is one easy way to gain the advantage. Where you don't slash, they can. Unless you're using Atronach spells. Zombie spells are decent for this as well.

[Bozzz123]

I like playing as a necromancer and summoning 30 skeletons to destroy all who oppose me. It only works with a necromancy mod, though.