FO3Edit MasterUpdate

[pkleiss]

From my point of view...

 

I have never needed to create a merged patch with any mods I have installed because I either load them correctly or don't use poorly written mods. There is no debate about the fact that creating a merged patch that is master updated is nothing but a work around for poorly written mods. Of course, whether one wants to use buggy mods or not is completely up to the individual. For me, my game never crashes and the expansive mods I create cause zero conflicts. I use FO3Edit to fix broken records within a mod, but not to master update a merged patch. If you think about what is happening, creating a merged patch can still lead to conflicts. When multiple mods want to alter the same vanilla record, only one can 'win'. While it may be true that one record will cause less errors than another, there are plenty of cases where choosing one winner will cause one type of problem and choosing another record will lead to different problems. I could give example after example, but I think I've gone far enough with this wall of text.

[blove]

...In my experience, A merged patch that is not masterupdated causes a host of issues, from severe FPS drop all the way up to CTDs...

A merged patch is mostly lists. There are only two CTD/freeze issues with lists of which I am aware. A duplicated formid in a formlist, which should not happen with a merged patch, and an orphaned record which can happen when using outdated mods. Severe FPS drops and other CTDs are most likely not related to your merged patch or whether or not you masterupdated it.

[BrainFever]

So what happens when after applying filter to find conflicts I end up with most of my esp plugins having that nice reddish fonts/background color?? I understand that not all conflicts are game breaking but on the other hand when there are SOOO many of them how can I judge which one is crucial and which expected? I can move records from a mod to another with that drag n drop fuction but only if someone tells me how to and where( http://wiki.step-project.com/User:Neovalen/Skyrim_Revisited for example this amazing guide) but on my own I really have no idea when should I drag something or when to create a patch between 2 or more mods. Actually I am seeking advices that refer to a newbie FO3/NV/TESedit user. I mean ok I can tell that I have to fully understand what a mod modifies/overrides/disables etc to judge whether a conflict should be treated or left intact but I believe you all were at my position in the past so what would you advise me to do?

 

By the way my game runs pretty fine, till know I haven't faced any CTD, the only drawback is that I get some FPS loss and some stuttering in places I shouldn't but I believe this has to do with the ENB I am using.

Edited September 17, 2013 by BrainFever

[BrainFever]

By the way now that I mentioned the Skyrim Revisited modding guide I want to actually make a request to all of you guys who mod and use FO3Edit for so many years to maybe consider a guide like that for FO3. I mean its ridiculous that even in 2013 there is not even a single guide(with a fair amount of immersive mods and FO3Edit instructions) to guarantee a 100% stability success. BenWah's guide is the best modding guide on the net for FO3 as far as I m aware, but it only contains a small amount of mods compared to what you can really dig up in falloutnexus and I still have random CTD's even if I follow his guide to the letter. A compilation of mods that increase immersion, fix bugs, increase stability, improve gameplay, make FO3 as best and crash-free as possible, etc plus a step by step guide on how to erase gamebreaking conflicts in FO3edit would be amazing imho.

But after so many years I can't really tell how many FO3 modders would be motivated to involve in a project like this...

Edited September 17, 2013 by BrainFever

[BlackRampage]

(Reference post here: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/263415-new-vegas-bounties-i/page-174&do=findComment&comment=6245932)

Funny, you seem to be basing your theory on a single post made over a year ago by another user. But, as change would have it, I happen to know that user.

That very same user has been co-author of a mod that was the direct predecessor of the Remastered mod M48A5 mentioned. Back then already there was a big notice in that mod's readme too that the mod should not be master-updated under any circumstance.

 

But wait, there's more: You know the Paradox Ignition presents The Mergers mod? That's another mod by that very same user. When last I looked he recommended the Blackened mod M48A5 mentioned to be used in conjunction with the latest version of his mod instead of his own patches (which he didn't even bother including anymore).

 

Not done yet: You know the UPDATED Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch which, again, that very same user co-authored? For all intents and purposed that mod was obviously based upon both the original unofficial Fo3 patch (I believe I already mentioned why on of that mod's patches should not be master-updated?) and Remastered (the updated unofficial patch happens to include quite a few fixes that were present in the Remastered mod too after all).

 

Still think those mods were in some way poorly made? Or, as you say, kill functionality on other mods? I rather doubt it. Trashing random mods is never a good idea imho, especially if one is unaware of the background and history behind those mods.

It also just so happens that yours truly is author of one of them and was co-author of the other (and it's aforementioned predecessor).

 

As an aside: The Blackened patches actually CAN be master-updated, but since it was mainly designed to be used in conjunction with the Remastered mod it was recommended not to be done so since FoMM/NMM would then automatically place it above the Remastered mod, instead of below it.

Though, considering the Remastered mod is no longer around anymore I guess that's a moot point now.

 

As far as the main discussion is concerned: What Blove said.

[Aonghus]

Whoa! What's with the hostility, I'm not trying to start a fight! I'm just sharing my experience. The post I linked to was from a New Vegas Mod that was the first time I encountered the "MasterUpdate breaks mods meme." The early versions of New Vegas Bounties would indeed fail to fire if Master Update. Lo and behold, the QuestItem/PersistentReference Flag issue was discovered, and suddenly New Vegas Bounties works when Master Updated!

 

For my game, Master Updating is essential. Many of the mods I run make heavy changes to not just lists, but also to Vanilla assets as well. I have not seen the Gamebro source code, but my feeling on the matter is that if the G.E.C.K. has an issue with something, (In this case, a plugin (rather than a master) modifying another plugin,) then the game probably does as well.

 

In short I'm sharing my experience playing, and modifying, the game. (Although I am getting a little sick of the contention that's been bouncing around that Masterupdate will rot your mind, curve your spine and bring us, God help us, peace without honor.)

[acelogan]

From a fairly unbiased and 3rd-person perspective, I'm not really sensing hostility towards you specifically; it's just that sometimes the experienced forum elite hold rather hardened opinions and can come off as being a bit blunt and steadfast in their assertions. I've kind of got use to it, through my many questions and brain picking pondering, and I've learned they generally don't typically hold any ill-mannered temperament towards someone they disagree with. Sorry guys, no hard feelings because I love the work you do here, but it's true. Although, of course it's just my observation, I could be wrong.

So, let's move on, shall we?

I have watched "The Great MasterUpdate Debate" go on, and on, and on, for a number of years now, with opposing sides from many viewpoints, tossing salvos of experiences, varied opinions, knowledgeable input and insight, straight-up guessing, thoughtful musings, general shoulder-shrugging, and deep-rooted hatred and disdain [and I mean DEEP], all bombarded about like mortars across the beaches of Normandy. No side really wins. It's literally torn friendships apart and caused users to abandon ship or get banned. It's a nasty topic to bring up for sure. And it's still in severe contention as to exactly why anyone should or should not use MasterUpdate, or which mods should or should-not be MU'd. New mod users tremble in it's wake, cowering back in uncertainty, undecided on the correct path to take or which side to forge on towards, often waking in cold sweats haunted by the ghastly demons of MasterUpdating. [i've added drama for effect]

 

In my experience, I have tried it a few times and did not like what I saw - not one bit. It totally screwed my Load Order worse than BOSS ever did, and caused FO3 to not even load, or crash consistently at random [i love oxymorons]. Not only was I confused by what it did (even after researching it, and knowing the idea behind it), I feared for the safety and stability of my game. Hence I have chosen to just not do it. I think I've probably read nearly every thread, post, and topic it's mentioned in, and I have no solid idea - no a clue - if I should really be using it or not. So, therefore as stated, I will not use it until there is a very clear-cut, plain-English, NOOB friendly 'FO3Edit: Guide to MasterUpdating' manual explaining precisely HOW to use it, WHEN to use it, AND WHY to use it, along with 100% proof of it's usefulness, what to watch out for when MasterUpdating, and how to spot mods that shouldn't be MU'd; and frankly, because I'm realistic and know people's propensity to not follow through, that just ain't ever gonna happen. Ever. Period.

And if anyone makes me eat my words, I'll have them with ketchup on Rye bread.

Edited October 1, 2013 by acelogan