Immersion and an Acceptable period for Mourning?

[Laerithryn]

I have a question for everyone as I'm interested in knowing the general opinion of players and modders alike. But before the question a little background for some context which matters overall.

 

A while back I made the mod Grosta the Lumberjack a vanilla npc giving her a visual overhaul plus making her a follower. It was always my intention to add extra dialogue using vaSynth to continue her story, which I felt was incomplete, as well as a missed opportunity for more interaction with the player. I've made the extra dialogue seamless to the existing vanilla dialogue to progress the story while keeping it in context.

 

Grosta's side quest leaves her recently widowed from her deceased husband. In my mod I'm making her a follower as well as marriage enabled. But for the sake of immersion and staying with in the context of her opening story it felt wrong to immediately have her open to marriage. So I'm adding a mourning period that would feel right or at least expected in the eyes of folk in the Rift to keep up the appearance of being respectful.

 

So the question is what's acceptable, both game wise and for immersion?

 

A quick search on Google for in medieval times how long were people expected to mourn a deceased spouse? Showed this:

 

Victorian Mourning Dress Stages

Spouses (particularly men) were to be mourned for two years or more..

 

While a general search showed this:

 

A spouse should spend a year and a day in mourning. Moving through the periods of mourning is considered optional, with the heavy period of mourning being 30 days and half and light mourning equally dividing the remaining time.

 

So the consensus appears to be the further back in time you look, the longer the mourning period was expected from society.

 

Ok, now with all that being said, let's talk about a video game and those interested in immersion. What's considered an acceptable period of mourning for those interested in immersion and the sake of brevity for a player whom is attempting to engage said character for marriage?

 

Taking into consideration the widow didn't like her husband any longer due to faults in his character. Being a drunk for one, but mainly due to him beating their child while being drunk. Plus leaving them to fend for themselves and to run a mill in his absense. And no she didn't murder him. It was his own half-witted ambitions that did him in.

 

Currently, I have a full week in mind for her mourning period. But not everyone will agree I'm sure. And I don't want this aspect of the mod to be a deterrent from anyone's interest in the mod. Especially when the mourning period is in the way of retaining this character as a marriage partner as well as a follower. Should it be less, like 3 days as she didn't have any love left for her ex? What would acceptable for Nords?

 

To everyone, your thoughts and opinions please? And my sincere apologies for this being too lengthy.

 

- Laerithryn

[HeyYou]

A month game time seems reasonable to me. A year would just take to long...... you would finish the game before she became marriage eligible. Maybe even three weeks, since she didn't like him anyway. :D And of course, the player has to do things that would prompt her to be WILLING to marry...... and NOT do things that were bad experiences in her previous marriage. So, the player should be at least reasonably law-abiding..... (unless she joins the thieves guild??) Etc.

[Laerithryn]

@ HeyYou, Really appreciate the feedback, thank you. Wow, an entire month game time! Never thought I'd hear thoughts for more than a week; which IMHO I already thought was too long. Consider me amazed!

 

As for prompting her to be willing, even though she's hates men, thanks to her late husband. Lets consider by the point in dialogue that courting becomes available the following has been established:

 

1. A complete stranger (the player) happens by to hear about her plight and offered to find her missing husband and does so.

2. Even though sad news, this stranger brought her closure. (This is where the vanilla side quest ends.)

(Grosta's Plight - new quest picks up here)

3. Still she's looking at selling the house and mill so she reluctantly accepts help. Again, stranger steps in with coin, problem solved.

4. This is where the mourning phase of the new side quest takes place, and the player leaves her alone for whatever amount of time.

5. Returning after said time she tells the player that she learned they are the Dragonborn! This is huge and exciting news for her. So from her perspective, the Dragonborn stepped in to help her and her son out of a bind. On top of all that she learns the Dovahkiin now has courting interest in her. This all together might be enough for your afformentioned prompting, yes, no?

[Gorgopis]

We're interested in how Skyrim distances and passages of time might scale "against" or in contrast to RW distances and times. How long should it take the Dragonborn to, say, conquer Alduin, take charge of the guilds, in RW time? How do SR distances contrast or scale in design to RW ones?

 

In these details might be a scalar that corresponds to, say, "two-years" mourning.

 

We also read, however, that in times of war or conflict, RW leaders, say jarls, might command citizens to marry and have children, as a service to the community. So, maybe there's a questline for that?

 

You have opened the door for academic types to come rushing around and offer more classes on Videogame narration techniques. And maybe your questline includes a Dragonborn who proves to have the skills while also proving not to have, uh, say for lack of better terms, "toxic masculinity"?

[treelot]

Your idea to have goalposts for increasing her willingness makes sense, but you may want to add some minor 'help' options so she has the potential to become interested in the character during a non-dragonborn run. Have her mourning default to 2 years and divide the time in half for each 'help' offered *AFTER* the conclusion of the vanilla quest line. So the first 'help' drops the time to 1 year; a second 'help' to six months; athird 'help' to three months; have the 'fourth help' make her suspicious, but add in a persuasion dialogue where she questions to PC to see if they just want *HER* or if they have paid attention and participated in dialogue enough to 'know' the answers to some of her (and her sons) background -- then the result is either 45 days or never willing.

Lastly, have a fifth 'help' to be the PC noticing a rival who is an old friend of hers. Have her mention how much she loathed men because of her ex, but the PC and her friend from childhood have proven 'at least some men' can be trusted AND that she'd be forever lost if she were to lose either. Have the rival have a few quests/needs and let the PC earn the rivals friendship and then promote the PC to Grosta. With the approval of the friend, she reduces her willingness to one month - which may have already passed with 6 stage quest for her and at least 2 or 3 for the friend.

PS... don't have the friend visit her like a creeper Faendal creeps on Camilla.

[Laerithryn]

@Treelot - Faendal creeper... booo... hisss... lol!

 

This post was not recieving the desired feedback in a sufficient time frame, so I reposted in the General Mod Author section where I had much better response. If your a mod author and have access and wish to follow it, this is the link. [sSE] Immersion and an Acceptable period of Mourning?

 

Like the ideas, thank you for for the feedback. Very much appreciated.

 

After much debate with friends and the few folks online that have shown an interest I've come to the conclusion that a week will suffice for several reasons.

 

1. Priority number one is not to have this aspect become an annoyance and deterrent from anyone's initial interest. Immersion is not everones cup of tea.

2. Regardless of marriage option, as both unlock together, who wants to wait a month, or longer just to get a follower, which may be their sole interest.

3. Immersion-wise, a number of people have concluded it would seem strange, odd, or weird she'd go out adventuring while in mourning anyways.

4. Then there's her adolescent son Gralnach, she'd be leaving behind. She'd require huge consessions and incentive for becoming a follower even if only temporarily.

 

So in the the end, gamewise, a week seems to be reasonable. For immersion folks, they'll see an attempt was made for a shade of realism. For other folks a week in game flies by quick enough to run across Skyrim and back to Heartwood Mill in the Rift.

[CasperTheLich]

i'd say there shouldn't be a set time per say, instead maybe a series of small quests that either open her up emotionally or if you play your cards poorly close it off for good, and use timers to space them out over time.

 

---edit

so in a slightly related note... (i hope people don't mind me bringing my question into this discussion, if too many do i can remove it later i suppose)

 

i'm playing one of the serana dialogue overhauls and it's one where she kind of informally does a marriage like thing with your character but it's just a nice cozy scene, now the issue is it's not an actual marriage as far as the game is concerned so my other custom followers will eventually start taking an interest in my character, now normally if my character was actually married by this point they would no longer take an interest and mostly respect the growing relationship, i'd like to see that with my toon & serana's relationship... is there a console command that can tell the game engine my character and serana are already married without going through the whole marriage/wedding/etc thing? just type this in and bingo the condition is set, and as far as skyrim cares death doesn't even sever this bond?

Edited April 2, 2022 by CasperTheLich

[Laerithryn]

@CasperTheLich,

" is there a console command that can tell the game engine my character and serana are already married"

 

 

The only thing that pops into my head even remotely connected to your issue would be the getrelationshiprank and setrelationshiprank command. Using the console, target each actor you want to lower their regard in your character and type in getrelationshiprank, then press enter which will spit out a number, probably 3 or 4. Then type in setrelationshiprank to at least 1 or 2 lower than what was spit out. That should alter their view and comments accordingly.

[CasperTheLich]

So just the setrelationship command by itself then? Figured there'd be more to it. Well, thanx for the reply.

[Laerithryn]

For your reference:

 

Reference ID The reference ID of the NPC you wish to change the relationship of (relationship between this reference ID and your current target).

Relationship Rank A number between -4 and 4:

• -4 - Archnemesis
• -3 - Enemy
• -2 - Foe
• -1 - Rival
• 0 - Acquaintance
• 1 - Friend
• 2 - Confidant (not a mispelling of confident!)
• 3 - Ally
• 4 - Lover