No Gods, No Masters: The Dwemer

[thtdutchfellow]

So, to start off, I'm a Dwemer nut. I find them to be the most fascinating element in ALL of the TES games. They are the race that shunned the Daedra and Mocked the Aedra as false. The only race to ever do both, and for this they were seen as the blasphemous race. But when you really think about it all, they were right, weren't they? The Aedra were, most likely, not gods but beings like the Daedra. Immortal, but NOT gods. The Aedra are probably all long since dead, or have removed themselves from the equation through isolation. And the Daedra only seek out power and praise from the mortals of Mundas for their own greed. They relied in logic and reason over superstition and mysticism, technology and mathematics over faith and prayer. They built cities that have stood through the tests of time and built machines that patrol those very cities even to this day. There technical prowess knew no bounds. Through these means the Dwemer sought to make their race immortal and came very, VERY close, or so I digress. Which brings me to the topic of this post. What happened to the Dwemer? Are they stuck in a dragon break like Alduin was, just waiting to return to Mundas? Or were they all completely wrong? Smited by the "Gods" for their blasphemous ways? We know that it has something to due with the heart of Lorkhan. We know that they sought to make themselves immortal. So what went wrong? And will they ever return? Or did they never leave in the first place? These are the questions that surround the infamous race known to men as the Dwarves. I hope that through this dialogue we may come up with some tangible ideas.

Edited September 20, 2013 by thtdutchfellow

[InfinityXeon]

Maybe they ate some bad chicken and got salmonella?

[Lachdonin]

First, both the Aedra and Daedra are gods. A god, in the Elder Scrolls, being anything bound by it's nature and able to affect the binds of reality at will while possessing a 'soul strength' near the infinite. The overwhelming majority of gods are Et'ada, of which the Aedra were involved in the creation of Mundus, and the Daedra were not. The 9 Divines are very much gods, though they are dead-reborn. They died creating Mundus, and were reborn as multi-faceted reflections of themselves through the worship of the mortal races. There are, of course, at least 2 others who achieved Godhood but not through becoming Et'ada, these being Tiber Septim and Vivec, both who achieved CHIM which loosely means they became the Godhead.

 

Anyway, the Elder Scrolls universe very literally has gods. I remember reading a quote that said "The Dwemer were atheists in a world where gods are real". It seems the Dwemer philosophy was similar to other Mer, they they had once been gods but had lost their divinity in the creation of Mundus, but rather than venerate their divine origins, they sought to reclaim them. To do so, they first had to understand exactly how Mundus and the various barriers of creation worked, which was the drive that pushed them towards science.

 

As for what happened to them... We are pretty sure we know. Vivec refers to one of the Walking Ways (means by which a mortal can escape mortality) as "The way of the Dwemer", and the report to Trebonus in Morrowind states that the Dwemer became the Golden Skin of the Numidium. Through extrapolation, we know that the Dwemer sought to create a god in their image, using the Numidium and the Heart of Lorkhan. Kagrenac was forced to enact the ritual early during the Battle of Red Mountain (at least the 2nd, the Nords had been defeated there 200 years earlier) and when he did, the Dwemer disappeared all at once. The running idea is that the activation of the heart sought to create the God of the Dwemer by drawing in all the soul-strength of those linked to it. First Kagrenac, then through him the rest of the Dwemer. We see something similar in Arnel in Skyrim, whose soul is promptly bound to the nearest divine being (the Dragonborn).

 

Why was Arnel's experiment limited to him and not all Bretons? Well, for one, he wasn't using the Heart of Lorkhan. For two, he lacked the Calling. My personal theory is that the entire Dwemer race vanished, sucked into the Numidium, because they possessed a collective telepathy known as the Calling, allowing them to commune and converse over long distances. When the god they sought to create drew strength through Kagrenac, he touched the minds of all Dwemer on Mundus, consuming their souls to fuel his apotheosis. Of course, there weren't enough souls to complete the change, and the Dwemer only manage to become the magical armour of a half-god creation,

[Urtel]

We never will know, and i dont recommend you trying to find truth, since it is mytery, that makes dwemer so outstanding and fascinating.

 

Lachdonin, as always, comes with lore explanations. But personally i think this theory sounds promising, but only promising. Since none of devs ever mentioned this kind of explanation. Actually they all say, that it is a mystery. And another reason is that no scientists in tes could explain what happened. Which means, devs want it to stay unknown. Its a simple way to make someone going nuts on dwemer stuff ;P

Edited September 20, 2013 by Urtel

[thtdutchfellow]

First, both the Aedra and Daedra are gods. A god, in the Elder Scrolls, being anything bound by it's nature and able to affect the binds of reality at will while possessing a 'soul strength' near the infinite. The overwhelming majority of gods are Et'ada, of which the Aedra were involved in the creation of Mundus, and the Daedra were not. The 9 Divines are very much gods, though they are dead-reborn. They died creating Mundus, and were reborn as multi-faceted reflections of themselves through the worship of the mortal races. There are, of course, at least 2 others who achieved Godhood but not through becoming Et'ada, these being Tiber Septim and Vivec, both who achieved CHIM which loosely means they became the Godhead.

 

Anyway, the Elder Scrolls universe very literally has gods. I remember reading a quote that said "The Dwemer were atheists in a world where gods are real". It seems the Dwemer philosophy was similar to other Mer, they they had once been gods but had lost their divinity in the creation of Mundus, but rather than venerate their divine origins, they sought to reclaim them. To do so, they first had to understand exactly how Mundus and the various barriers of creation worked, which was the drive that pushed them towards science.

 

As for what happened to them... We are pretty sure we know. Vivec refers to one of the Walking Ways (means by which a mortal can escape mortality) as "The way of the Dwemer", and the report to Trebonus in Morrowind states that the Dwemer became the Golden Skin of the Numidium. Through extrapolation, we know that the Dwemer sought to create a god in their image, using the Numidium and the Heart of Lorkhan. Kagrenac was forced to enact the ritual early during the Battle of Red Mountain (at least the 2nd, the Nords had been defeated there 200 years earlier) and when he did, the Dwemer disappeared all at once. The running idea is that the activation of the heart sought to create the God of the Dwemer by drawing in all the soul-strength of those linked to it. First Kagrenac, then through him the rest of the Dwemer. We see something similar in Arnel in Skyrim, whose soul is promptly bound to the nearest divine being (the Dragonborn).

 

Why was Arnel's experiment limited to him and not all Bretons? Well, for one, he wasn't using the Heart of Lorkhan. For two, he lacked the Calling. My personal theory is that the entire Dwemer race vanished, sucked into the Numidium, because they possessed a collective telepathy known as the Calling, allowing them to commune and converse over long distances. When the god they sought to create drew strength through Kagrenac, he touched the minds of all Dwemer on Mundus, consuming their souls to fuel his apotheosis. Of course, there weren't enough souls to complete the change, and the Dwemer only manage to become the magical armour of a half-god creation,

Ok yours seems to be the only real answer thus far so I will converse with you.

 

I like the Atheists in a world with Gods quote (ha!). I'm still kind of "meh" about weather or not the Aedra and Daedra are indeed Gods, as any being powerful enough to create things on a planetary scale isn't necessarily a God, merely an immensely powerful being (Kind of an ironic statement I know). I'm applying real world logic and I know that that can be a foolish endeavor, but I can't help it.

 

I do however understand your explanation about them and their created god Numidium, but I am skeptical of Trebonius's theory. The way the Lore reads, to me anyways, I could be wrong, is that the Dwemer had already constructed Numidium and placed the heart with in, and from their they disappear while trying to... for lack of a better word awaken (?) it. Therein lies my skepticism of Trebonius, who I remember was described as being a "Joke" within the mages guild. If we take his account seriously then we must also do the same with Mankar Camoran of the Mythic Dawn, who thought that Lorkhan was a Daedric prince, and that opens a whole other can of worms with Akatosh, St. Alessia, and a vie for power and control, but he's regarded as a fool as well. Then there is the actual disappearance of the heart it's self, when Dagoth tried to harness it's power to construct another mechanical god (the name escapes me), Nevevarine used Sunder and Keening to destroy Kagneracs enchantments on the heart and it vanished into a point, to witch no one knows where. All this is what makes ME think that something like what happened to Alduin happened to the Dwemer. As the Elder Scrolls are pieces of divine made substance, and Lorkhan was indeed a god (I know I'm contradicting myself but bare with me). The difference being that while what the Nords did to Alduin was semi purposeful, I think what happened to the Dwemer was either an accident, or done by the other divines, or possibly Daedra, maybe even Lorkhan himself (Kind of eh about that one) in order to thwart them, to safe guard Mundas, or themselves from such power. Please let me know if I'm just spouting of a bunch of nonsense.

 

Edit I believe there is also a theory that Azura had something to do with the disappearance, but I can't remember the details. I'm sure I'll have looked it up by your next post. Also thank you for indulging me with a good debate.

Edited September 20, 2013 by thtdutchfellow

[Lachdonin]

. If we take his account seriously then we must also do the same with Mankar Camoran of the Mythic Dawn, who thought that Lorkhan was a Daedric prince

 

 

Funny you should mention that. There are indications that maybe we should do just that. MK has stated that there is just enough true about Camoran's claims to cast some doubt on what we know about Mundus... It adds an interesting third tier to the conflicting creation myths portrayed in the Monomyth/Loveletter/Nu-Mantia and the Annuad.

 

Also, the name you're looking for (for the second Numidium) is Akulakhan.

 

Back to the Dwemer, however... MK and other developers have said that the report to Trebonius is the 'official' explanation, though not what they mean by official. Is it Bethesda's official, or the Mages Guild official? I know that MK has voiced dissatisfaction in the explanation well after the fact, which means it may not be set in stone.

 

In that light, Yagrum Bagarn offers a different picture, which could just be optimism, but has enough backing it to make it worth consideration. Yagrum Bagarn, for those who do not know, appeared in Morrowind, and was the last known Dwemer. He escaped the destruction of his race by being in an Outer Realm at the time, and thus beyond the Calling, but was afflicted with the Corprus shortly after his return to Mundus. Yagrum beleived that the Heart's link to the Atemporal Aetherius could have transported the Dwemer out of time, or to some distant corner of reality yet to be explored, and that Dwemer may still exist somewhere in the infinite cosmos. Taken alone, this means rather littler, since Yagrum is not all right in the head, and there is more evidence supporting the conflicting theory... BUT! In the books the Infernal City and Lord of Souls, we see creations of the Second Ingenium which resemble Mer of various sorts, dispite Umbriel's having never been to Tamriel. Are these reflections of the souls consumed by Umbra, fragments of memories from his host (i can't remember the Dunmer's name) or did Umbriel find Mer living in some other reality deep in the Outer Realms?

 

Even if the former situation (the Dwemer becoming the golden skin of the Numidium) is true, what happened after the Numidium's destruction. Were the fragmented souls of the Dwemer people obliterated? Were the souls released, and are thus the haunting remains we see lurking the halls of their holds in Vardenfell? Could the scattered spirits of the Dwemer ever manifest as flesh and bone again? Clearly they were not erased by the ensuing Dragonbreak, as all of Tamriel would have been affected by their removal from time, but beyond that we know nothing. Given the nature of the Numidium, the Golem could still be exploding, scattering the soul-stuff of the Dwemer far and wide.

 

As for the whole god, thing... One must apply definitions to the universe in question, not use them wholesale. If we translated definitions straight from our reality and applied them to the Elder Scrolls universe, Dragons would be Wyverns, and Spriggans would be Dryad. Within the context of the universe, gods are entities with the power to warp and construct reality. Not necessarily build worlds, but rather create physical law. We're not even sure if all Et'ada qualify for this, though the Aedra and Daedra certainly do.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Lachdonin

[Urtel]

 

I'm still kind of "meh" about weather or not the Aedra and Daedra are indeed Gods, as any being powerful enough to create things on a planetary scale isn't necessarily a God, merely an immensely powerful being (Kind of an ironic statement I know). I'm applying real world logic and I know that that can be a foolish endeavor, but I can't help it.

 

Ok, let me put in some arguments

 

What you say about gods and powerful beings is complete nonsence. You can call or not call them gods, this does not change their role in the universe. They created plane of mortals. Thats it. And they are worshipped. Just saying, that its not the point, to call or not to call them gods.

 

Also, if speaking seriously on dwemers.

So, lets pretend they actually managed to somehow use the heart and their technology... to do what? This is the question we need to answer first. They really wanted their early-era powers? Or they wanted to check, if the divines were real living beings? Don't you think they wanted to resurrect Lorkhan, using the heart and a machine? This may sound very odd, but i cant see anything wrong. This reason is as good as yours. To see, if you can return back.

Another idea. If you are correct, and the seek power, then we have even more questions.

They dissapeared, does this mean they got power and left Mundus as Divines did? Or they failed? If they failed, then did they vanquished into void, or got trapped between planes, or... something else?

More thoughts. If you say they dissapeared all at once because of Kagrenac and this master-mind ability. They were very smart, right? I guess they knew how their cooperative thinking worked. So i dont think, this wasnt considered, that they might dissapear all together. Which makes me think, that it was all planned, and not an accident. Working with such powers with no barriers... i dont think they were that stupid, right?

 

So this is what i have to say. Nothing particular, since there is too much unknown.

[thtdutchfellow]

 

 

Funny you should mention that. There are indications that maybe we should do just that. MK has stated that there is just enough true about Camoran's claims to cast some doubt on what we know about Mundus... It adds an interesting third tier to the conflicting creation myths portrayed in the Monomyth/Loveletter/Nu-Mantia and the Annuad.

 

 

Ha! Seems as though Alduin may be more like his old man than we were led to believe. This is definitely very interesting. How did you find out about this?

 

 

In that light, Yagrum Bagarn offers a different picture, which could just be optimism, but has enough backing it to make it worth consideration. Yagrum Bagarn, for those who do not know, appeared in Morrowind, and was the last known Dwemer. He escaped the destruction of his race by being in an Outer Realm at the time, and thus beyond the Calling, but was afflicted with the Corprus shortly after his return to Mundus. Yagrum beleived that the Heart's link to the Atemporal Aetherius could have transported the Dwemer out of time, or to some distant corner of reality yet to be explored, and that Dwemer may still exist somewhere in the infinite cosmos. Taken alone, this means rather littler, since Yagrum is not all right in the head, and there is more evidence supporting the conflicting theory... BUT! In the books the Infernal City and Lord of Souls, we see creations of the Second Ingenium which resemble Mer of various sorts, dispite Umbriel's having never been to Tamriel. Are these reflections of the souls consumed by Umbra, fragments of memories from his host (i can't remember the Dunmer's name) or did Umbriel find Mer living in some other reality deep in the Outer Realms?

 

Yagrums theory may be the optimistic one, and most unsupported by evidence. BUT, if you were playing Oblivion wouldn't you say the same about Mankars theory with Lorkhan? Ultimately I think that Yagrums will end up being the closest to the truth. If not for the simple fact that a return of the Dwemer (or at least some of them) is even more content for Bethesda to work with. I think you've said far more about the subject than I could. I think I'll just sit back and read after this, seeing as you've trumped me in Dwemer knowledge.

 

 

What you say about gods and powerful beings is complete nonsence. You can call or not call them gods, this does not change their role in the universe. They created plane of mortals. Thats it. And they are worshipped. Just saying, that its not the point, to call or not to call them gods.

 

I know it is. I even said it was an ironic statement. And I already said that I (knowingly) make the pivotal mistake of using real world logic in a video game. It's partly the reason why I love the Dwemer. Like Lachdonin said "The Dwemer were atheists in a world where gods are real".

 

 

Also, if speaking seriously on dwemers.

So, lets pretend they actually managed to somehow use the heart and their technology... to do what? This is the question we need to answer first. They really wanted their early-era powers? Or they wanted to check, if the divines were real living beings? Don't you think they wanted to resurrect Lorkhan, using the heart and a machine? This may sound very odd, but i cant see anything wrong. This reason is as good as yours. To see, if you can return back.

Another idea. If you are correct, and the seek power, then we have even more questions.

They dissapeared, does this mean they got power and left Mundus as Divines did? Or they failed? If they failed, then did they vanquished into void, or got trapped between planes, or... something else?

More thoughts. If you say they dissapeared all at once because of Kagrenac and this master-mind ability. They were very smart, right? I guess they knew how their cooperative thinking worked. So i dont think, this wasnt considered, that they might dissapear all together. Which makes me think, that it was all planned, and not an accident. Working with such powers with no barriers... i dont think they were that stupid, right?

 

They were trying to transcend mortality. That was the ends of Kagrenac means. I think it even says somewhere that he used the calling to gather his people for a great journey. Implying that he may have succeeded, but not likely.

Also they didn't want to resurrect Lorkhan, they wanted to use his heart to bring their new artificial god Numidium to life.

Of course they wanted power! They are described as being blasphemous, and scientifically advanced race that could even be quite cruel. Look what they did to at the Falmer. And why? Because they wanted someone to do the work that their machines couldn't do, and they didn't want to do. To think that they wanted it for any other reason than power... well I can't even think of one.

The idea you put forward of them being trapped in the void or in between planes is what Yagrum thinks happened, and me as well. I can't put forth the quality of an argument as Lachdonin can, mostly because he seems to be way better informed than us (and I thank you for all this rich info).

And to respond to your last thought; Yes they were a very smart race. Their machinery and architecture alone proves that. Albert Einstein said, "I made one great mistake in my life — when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made". Just because someone is smart, in this case Kagrenac, the chief proponent of using the Heart of Lorkhan to bring into being Numidium, can make mistakes. To note, a lot of Dwemer didn't think it was a good idea to tamper wit the heart. Making the argument that miscalculations could bring about a catastrophic error.

 

But ultimately who knows maybe it did go all according to plan, and everyone sense their disappearance only thinks that they failed because they don't know any better.

Edited September 20, 2013 by thtdutchfellow

[Lachdonin]

 

Ha! Seems as though Alduin may be more like his old man than we were led to believe. This is definitely very interesting. How did you find out about this?

 

 

It was LadyNerevar on the Bethesda forums who first pointed me towards MK's statements, which at the time were buried deep in the Bethesda Forums... Now her links to them are probably as deep as the statements were when I saw them... She and I have had several discussions on the Dwemer, mostly pertaining to the apparent inconsistencies between their society, as portrayed by Yagrum, Vivec and Divayth Fyr, and what we see in Skyrim.

 

 

To note, a lot of Dwemer didn't think it was a good idea to tamper wit the heart. Making the argument that miscalculations could bring about a catastrophic error.

 

I generally feel that this is a somewhat important consideration. Vivec tells us that Dumac didn't know about the whole of Kagrenac's plan, and Dumac was the king of the Dwemer. This indicates Kagrenac has a great deal of power and influence, that he could keep such a secret from the king of his race. We also know that other Tonal Architects were writing about the risks of tampering with the Heart (I think the Egg of Time deals with this, been awhile since I played Morrowind and spoke to Yagrum) telling us that some Dwemer suspected things could to catastrophically wrong.

 

It's possible that Kagrenac's plan was to become the Numidium himself by consuming the power of his entire race. It would certainly explain why he kept details from his King, and why he seems to have ignored the voice of his peers.

 

As for Dwemer knowledge... Don't feel bad, there is always more to learn in the Elder Scrolls universe. I just learned this week that the Mane is a moon-god, nor just a very hairy Khajiit!

[Urtel]

 

They were trying to transcend mortality. That was the ends of Kagrenac means. I think it even says somewhere that he used the calling to gather his people for a great journey. Implying that he may have succeeded, but not likely.

Also they didn't want to resurrect Lorkhan, they wanted to use his heart to bring their new artificial god Numidium to life.

 

I know all the common theories you are talking about, but i forget some them usually as well as other lore-stuff, and cant stop facepalming)

My general idea was about that all we know about dwemers, is a knowledge, given by scholars, and we know, that trusting their theories is not always a good idea.

And saying that Numidium was a metal god, they wanted to bring to life, is something really odd. Since they do not worship Et'Ada, i highly doubt, that they started worshipping machine-god (sounds warhammerish). And resurrecting an actual god seems logical, since its his heart, they found. I say, its a very heretic idea, but why not...

Damn. I got to work)

Was going to make a huge post, but have no time((

So, why don't you like my new-born theory?

 

Edit: I remember reading somewhere about the Kagrenac and his plan, and that it was unknown to most dwemers. Well this is much more usual thing in TES. A very usual desires, leading to the massive events.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Urtel