No Gods, No Masters: The Dwemer

[ThatFellowDutch]

 

As far as their disapperance, they may simply have ceased to exist. Because officially Kagrenac was trying to make all Dwemer gods, thereby targeting all Dwemer, he may have caused a kind of reality paradox. In order to resolve it, whatever forces behind creation basically forced them all out of existence entirely. Yagrum Bagarn basically confirms this by stating that no piece of them exists in any plane of known existence.

 

 

Lachdonin makes an interesting point that maybe Kagnerac WASN'T trying to make all the Dwemer gods, he was trying to make himself a god at his peoples expense.

 

"Vivec tells us that Dumac didn't know about the whole of Kagrenac's plan, and Dumac was the king of the Dwemer. This indicates Kagrenac has a great deal of power and influence, that he could keep such a secret from the king of his race. We also know that other Tonal Architects were writing about the risks of tampering with the Heart (I think the Egg of Time deals with this, been awhile since I played Morrowind and spoke to Yagrum) telling us that some Dwemer suspected things could to catastrophically wrong." Lachdonin

 

 

 

They are an enigma, a puzzle that will (hopefully!) never be solved because that would take the whole fun out of them since the mystery of their disappearance is what defines them just like the legends of Atlantis, and Ancient Astronauts define those people even though there is no definitive proof they ever existed.

 

 

I have to disagree with you. I think that the Dwemer (to the writers and creators) are a seed they planted. They are something that will continue to be nourished and fed (with more of their lore, ruins, tech, etc...) abd will one day bear fruit. When I say bear fruit I mean that what happened to them will be explained in one of few ways. 1; They all come back. 2; A scientist/mage (Similar to Arniel Gane) will figure it out (again) but possibly with more malevolent reasons. OR 3; Maybe you will GO there as a part of a quest. The only option after those is the one that they are truly all gone and no one will ever know why I feel like the latter to me seems kind of lame, no offence.

Edited September 21, 2013 by ThatFellowDutch

[Lachdonin]

So! New information here... From doing some digging and talking to a few people...

 

Red Mountain, the battle in which the Dwemer Disappeared, is what we refer to in the anthropological field as a 'Cluster F*** '. There was almost certainly a Dragon Break involved... and unlike the Warp in the West, there was no concrete resolution...

 

Which means the Dwemer either became the Golden Skin of the Numidium, were smote by Lorkhan (and/or) Azura, Displaced themselves to another time and/or place, winked out of existence, some combination of the above, or all of it at once.

 

We do know, for a fact, that the Dwemer disappeared. We also know that the Tribunal killed Nerevar once (he likely died at least twice, possibly as many as 5 times). We also know the factions involved the 5 Great Houses of the Chimer, the 6th House Dagoth, the Dwemer under king Dumac (Dumalacath according to Dro'Zira) and the Nords under King Wulfharth and Ysgramor. Beyond that, we don't know who was on whose side, who killed who how many times, or who even activated the Numidium.

 

Consider, however, the case of Mannimarco. At the end of Daggerfall, Mannimarco is one of the powers who gains control of the Numidium, using it to achieve apotheosis and becoming the God of Worms (AKA the Necromancer's Moon). We KNOW this happened, because the Necromancer's moon exists thereafter. However, we also have a Mannimarco in Oblivion, an Altmer claiming to be the same King of Worms that has existed since the First Age. Most will simply write this off as another Necromancer claiming the title and impersonating the real King of Worms... But what if he IS Mannimarco?

 

We know that during a Dragon Break, all events and all possibility exists at once. When it ends, paradoxes tend to get balanced out. If you have 38 instances of Mannimarco failing apotheosis, and 39 instances of him becoming a god, then the one where he becomes a god is left over. But what if you end up with two not contradictory outcomes? Mannimarco is not slain, and Mannimarco becomes a god. Suddenly, you can have two instances of the same being in the world.

 

A similar outcome could be present with the Dwemer, the Dragon Break at Red Mountain having caused them to be subjected to several different fates at once, all of which remained valid when the Tribunal committed the final murder of Indoril Nerevar and fixed time.

 

To make things even weirder, we could end up with all these timelines colliding at once, the destruction of the Numidium releasing the Dwemer over-soul, the displaced Dwemer returning, Lorkhan reuniting with his Heart etc. If the Dwemer were to be handled in an appropriate way, we'd be in for something far, FAR more mind shattering than anything we've been witness to. It may even beat the Landfall.

[ThatFellowDutch]

So! New information here... From doing some digging and talking to a few people...

 

Red Mountain, the battle in which the Dwemer Disappeared, is what we refer to in the anthropological field as a 'Cluster F*** '. There was almost certainly a Dragon Break involved... and unlike the Warp in the West, there was no concrete resolution...

 

Which means the Dwemer either became the Golden Skin of the Numidium, were smote by Lorkhan (and/or) Azura, Displaced themselves to another time and/or place, winked out of existence, some combination of the above, or all of it at once.

 

We do know, for a fact, that the Dwemer disappeared. We also know that the Tribunal killed Nerevar once (he likely died at least twice, possibly as many as 5 times). We also know the factions involved the 5 Great Houses of the Chimer, the 6th House Dagoth, the Dwemer under king Dumac (Dumalacath according to Dro'Zira) and the Nords under King Wulfharth and Ysgramor. Beyond that, we don't know who was on whose side, who killed who how many times, or who even activated the Numidium.

 

Consider, however, the case of Mannimarco. At the end of Daggerfall, Mannimarco is one of the powers who gains control of the Numidium, using it to achieve apotheosis and becoming the God of Worms (AKA the Necromancer's Moon). We KNOW this happened, because the Necromancer's moon exists thereafter. However, we also have a Mannimarco in Oblivion, an Altmer claiming to be the same King of Worms that has existed since the First Age. Most will simply write this off as another Necromancer claiming the title and impersonating the real King of Worms... But what if he IS Mannimarco?

 

We know that during a Dragon Break, all events and all possibility exists at once. When it ends, paradoxes tend to get balanced out. If you have 38 instances of Mannimarco failing apotheosis, and 39 instances of him becoming a god, then the one where he becomes a god is left over. But what if you end up with two not contradictory outcomes? Mannimarco is not slain, and Mannimarco becomes a god. Suddenly, you can have two instances of the same being in the world.

 

A similar outcome could be present with the Dwemer, the Dragon Break at Red Mountain having caused them to be subjected to several different fates at once, all of which remained valid when the Tribunal committed the final murder of Indoril Nerevar and fixed time.

 

To make things even weirder, we could end up with all these timelines colliding at once, the destruction of the Numidium releasing the Dwemer over-soul, the displaced Dwemer returning, Lorkhan reuniting with his Heart etc. If the Dwemer were to be handled in an appropriate way, we'd be in for something far, FAR more mind shattering than anything we've been witness to. It may even beat the Landfall.

 

First off, sorry about just the quote being the only thing up for a while. My account was acting screwy. But it's fixed now, and to get to what I was going to post...

 

I really think you could be on to something. I do feel like the Dwemer have been set up for something big, and all these ideas just helps to throw wood on the fire. I hope that the developers read posts like these, I really do. I'll elaborate on some ideas in my newer post so that I may also include the post by Urtel.

Edited September 23, 2013 by ThatFellowDutch

[Urtel]

 

I await your huge post with anticipation

 

Not a huge, really. I have no idea what i was going to post ;)

Still, we all can agree, that it was kind of a dragon break. And we most certanly know, that the event was caused by Numidium, or the ritual, that was connected to the machine.

But what where exactly the reasons?

Here is another mad theory of what happened.

 

Generally, i tend to think, that it was all planned. May be not all of the dwarfs supported the plan. May be they did not even know about it. But such thing must have some plan beyond, not an accident.

Now... What if dwemers knew the nature of dragon breaks? What if they could exactly calculate, how many realities will be created. And how to move in one. And they simply escaped in another reality. This does not explain, if they succeded, but makes kind of sence. This was an escape mission. And what we see is only one reality, with no dwemers and with all consequences.

[ThatFellowDutch]

 

 

Generally, i tend to think, that it was all planned. May be not all of the dwarfs supported the plan. May be they did not even know about it. But such thing must have some plan beyond, not an accident.

 

 

I've thought about a similar idea as this, but from the other side of the coin. What if upon Dagoth Ur's discovery of the Dwemer plan and his relaying this information to Nerevar, Nerevar consulted with the Tribunal, and upon doing so the Tribunal, gets a very human idea, "They can't do that! Because WE want to!" And then they set about sabotaging the Dwemer in some way, causing them to be slung around time/consumed by Numidium/trapped on another plane/all of the above etc. etc... After all in Vivecs account some suspect that the way Nerevar and Dagoth were able to slip by the Dwemer and enter the chamber (which he only lends to as secret means) where the heart was stored was do to a treasonous act. And then there is the murder of Nerevar by the Tribunal shortly after (who wished that the tools be safe guarded and never used (and further what reason would they have to do such a thing other than a grab for power?)) along with the dissolution of house Dagoth (Dagoth Ur being the only one who wanted the tools destroyed) and then in the after math Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil achieving their status of living gods (what can be said to be a play on the plans of Kagrenac) which is ironic at the least because it is why the Chimer went to war with the dwemer in the first place. This would help to shed a little more light on Lacdonins statement.

 

 

We do know, for a fact, that the Dwemer disappeared. We also know that the Tribunal killed Nerevar once (he likely died at least twice, possibly as many as 5 times). We also know the factions involved the 5 Great Houses of the Chimer, the 6th House Dagoth, the Dwemer under king Dumac (Dumalacath according to Dro'Zira) and the Nords under King Wulfharth and Ysgramor. Beyond that, we don't know who was on whose side, who killed who how many times, or who even activated the Numidium.

 

 

It would mean that the actual intent of the war was not to stop a blasphemous act but to achieve the power for themselves (Them being the tribunal). It would mean that the tribunal had tricked everyone, and that Vivec, Sotha Sil, and Almalexia beat them in their attempts to fulfill the Dwemer plans. After all Vivec and Almalexia were said to be won over by an "stirring idealistic speech" given by Sotha Sil (though it never goes into detail about what that speech was about) who approached them with the fact that he had figured out how to properly use the tools. What if he discovered of and stole the work of the Tribunal and completed it himself, over even just the former?

 

When you think about it, we know almost exactly what happened up to the final confrontation inside Red Mountain. At which point we only have the word of a man, Vivec, who wasn't even there, and the Tribunal, along with the letter from Dagoth Ur which, if true, would corroborate parts of Vivecs account as well as some of the Nord account.

Edited September 23, 2013 by ThatFellowDutch

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

Maybe they ate some bad chicken and got salmonella?

The masters of fire and steam felled by undercooked food. Oh the irony.