Weapon Havoc problem... help would be appreciated.

[Braggi]

I'm currently working on getting a ton of new weapons into my Oblivion play install. Scimitars, war staves, broadswords, scythes and so on. Most of these are from pre-existing modder's resources from here on Nexus. However, there is one I have a problem with: Sickles.

 

A few years back I found a version of the vanilla OB sickle here that someone had gotten working as a side-sheathing weapon in Oblivion. Worked great as a weapon when the player or an NPC used it. The problem came in when you dropped it from inventory. The item would just stay stuck in the air where it appeared, similar to a static. No dropping, bouncing or anything else. The author mentioned this in his mod readme, so I went in well-warned.

 

I monkeyed around with it in Nifskope and finally got the physics engine in the game to act on the object. However, I'm not certain just how I did it and I must have done something wrong - when dropped indoors, the weapon falls through floors and vanishes into the void. When dropped outdoors, the weapon falls though statics but stops when it hits the ground plane. (All my other weapons. vanilla or modded, work as expected, as a point of clarity.)

 

So, what can I do to get this thing behaving like a proper weapon when dropped in-game? (No point in adding it to levelled lists on NPC's since they will just fall though the dungeon floors when dropped in combat... and I would love to go up against some necromancers armed with these things.) I know very little of how to finesse the physics in Nifskope. Hit some tutorials for it but they are way out of date. If anyone with more experience/expertise is interested, I tried to attach the weapon model to this post, minus textures although the paths are intact, but the forum won't permit it. (Might be my post count or some such?) The file is tiny - only about 48 kb in size.

 

Hope that's enough to go on, and thanks to anyone who replies in advance. I've got in-game stats, textures and inventory icons corresponding to all the major in-game metals (including mithral and orcish) already set up. I just need sickle models that behave correctly.

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Braggi

[DrakeTheDragon]

My first guess would be you somehow managed to enable Havok on the NIF without actually giving it a collision hull. It can't collide with anything (geometry, ground) nor can it be picked up without one, but gravity already pulls it down regardless.

 

I myself am very novice in this particular topic, too, still, and my limited free time won't allow for me to look into it. But a good, and often suggested, first start in the past was always to copy a collision hull from an existing item, which closely enough covers your item's shape. However one had to remove the geometry from a copy of an existing NIF and insert the new one without touching the collision stuff for this to work, never the other way around as collision data seemingly cannot be copied over to another file without errors.

 

Hope it helps some. Otherwise others more knowledgable in this than me will chime in soon.

 

 

And yes, you cannot use attachments for much in this IP.Board forum environment. There's a strict limitation on file types and a very small limit in individual file size and sum over all attachments per account/member, basically making it senseless to use.

Upload your files to a free reputable file sharing host instead and put the links to their downloads here. (Same goes for images, but those can at least use "img" BBCode tags to embed into your posts.)

[Pellape]

When it comes to collisions, I did edit a lot of them , well mostly geometry, fixing the size and such in Nifskope. Ifyou do anything wrong in Nifscope, specially with the collisions, they will break. Editing the size of them in Blender, will break them too.

 

Some mods I use have collisions that breaks the floor and everyone falls, not only the weapon but all NPCs and stuff with havoc. So the best you can o is to take a standard Oblivion weapon that is in the same size as your sickle, and load it with Nifskope, Click the V icon at the top, the one with a red tiny ball at the end of the V, to show collisions. Open up the top NiNode, remove all NitriShapes or NitriStrips (2 different types that do the same stuff basically) by REMOVE BRANCH, so do not just use remove as that will break the mesh. Do not touch the BSXFlags or bhkCollisionObject, in case you do not want to make changes to the size of the collision, which is harmless to do in Nifskope, but devastating to do in Blender as I did mentioned.

 

To copy, deleting, or pasting Block Branches. Right Click the NitriShape or the NitriStrip and click, Block, and then one of the 3 Branch choices, Copy, Remove or Paste Branch. Always Branches, nothing else, in case you do not micro-editing inside a block that is, at the bottom of a block somewhere. I do not recommend it as it is so easy to break dependencies and pointers as Nifskope will do everything you tell it to do, no matter if it works or not. It is Low level editing after all.

 

So when all visible stuff is deleted. Pres CTRL-N and a new Nifskope will pop up. Load your Sickle into it. Open the top NiNode, schose each NitriShape or/and NitriStrip branch and COPY BRANCH, not copy, but Copy Branch. Go to Nifskope window 1 and click the top NiNode and PASTE BRANCH. If it is arrows as one example, it has sub NiNodes, so if your mesh has Sub-Ninodes, you can actually mark that 2nd Ninode, Copy Branch and paste it into the Ninode in Window 1, you collision mesh. That will save a lot of time and sweat really. But most meshes only have single top Ninode. The NiNode is only a container, that has the origin like the coordinates in a reference in CS, that works the same way. Just a container for the Base Object. A mesh will work fine without a nine really. But it is proper to make one if there is none and I make my own in Blender, to keep stuff organized. I will use more sub-Ninodes in the future really, if I add more then 3 NitriShapes into a mesh.

 

I just spent 3 evenings copying such a big messy mesh between 2 NifSkope windows... So many NitriShapes... :O

 

You could also try the latest Blender Nif-exporter, but the latest version I did test could not load Oblivion meshes but it could export them perfect and the version I use, can import them perfect but not export the collisions properly. Blender can have all bloody versions of the Importer/Exporter at the same time :D It is impossible to know which is which in the menus:

 

File

Export

Netimmerse/Gamebryo (*.nif)

Netimmerse/Gamebryo (*.nif)

 

 

File

Import

Netimmerse/Gamebryo (*.nif)

Netimmerse/Gamebryo (*.nif)

 

Well which is which version? :wink: You will see that if you click one of them really. :D

 

I really need to test the latest NIF exporter. If it works, it will save us a LOT OF TIME and sweat. Nifskope is very cool, but also very tedious to work with. Well learning Blender takes some time too but it is sure worth it as it is much faster for such stuff, but do not touch any collisions, if you are not making a new one. Making a collision is not that complicated, but when you are done making it, you cannot edit it. What is made is made. This only counts for the collision in Blender.

 

Just look at this Blender Sword.

 

 

Make it and include it in your mod. Simple as that really. :D It also looks very good.

 

Blender

Niftools for Blender Exporter/Importer and settings for your meshes.

 

Still Nifskope can sanitize the meshes, and mine is set to sanitize a mesh when it loads, which is a setting in the preferences. Nifskope is very good in sanitizing a mesh and have not failed me yet. So anyway, use Nifskope after you exported a nif from Blender.

 

If you wanna try Blender, I will give you some info about which versions of the Niftools to use. Then I will also try the latest versions, trying to figure out which one works best. The one that can import the meshes but fail to export the collisions is: https://github.com/niftools/blender_niftools_addon/releases/tag/blender-2.6.0a.dev6 and I just saw that the latest version is 0.13 and the latest I did test was 0.05 and I made a report, which they closed and wrote something stupid, but they did say they would peek at it at some point anyway. I guess my bug report did not followed their perfect template :D

 

So many NI, Ni ni ni ni... Knights of ni

Edited August 1, 2022 by Pellape

[Braggi]

First off, just let me offer some thanks to all of you for your help. I left the community about ten years back (no fanfare or anything, just stopped posting to the forums) very quietly because I saw people becoming really rude & unhelpful to each other. (At the risk of dating myself, I go all the way back to the pre-Nexus TESSource days for Oblivion and Morrowind.) It is really gratifying to see the old "help-each-other-out" spirit has returned. Again, thank you. :dance:

 

Now with that said, I'm going to thoroughly read what has been posted before I reply. Want to make sure I don't miss anything. Just wanted to let you know your replies are seen and appreciated.

[Braggi]

OK, first off to Drake the Dragon:

 

Thanks for the heads up on files and filesharing. (Things certainly have changed.) I'll try using my Google Drive folder space to host the nif. Fortunately, it does seem to have a collision mesh - simple box type - with MO_QUAL_BOX as its motion system and MO_QUAL_DEBRIS as its quality type.

 

So, first off here is the original sickle nif file:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OaPdvoaIXYmfm_pzNvL1Ld4CjHxBPuwK/view?usp=sharing

 

Next, let's see if I can noodle out how to get an image hosted on GD to show up here.

 

(ten minutes later)

 

OK, no such luck. It keeps saying I am "not allowed to use this image extension on this community." I tried picture files in both .png and .jpg format. Same message both attempts. Rather then wasting more time chasing around that particular mulberry bush, I'll just post a dl link to GD instead.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18fp9y4FfyZwCxveGitnxe03WcBveBhvZ/view?usp=sharing

 

(With that done, anyone who wants to can open the mesh in Nifskope and/or download the image file to see what is going on.)

 

Next to Pellape:

 

Your post has a lot of really useful info in it. Thank you. I'll reply to it in depth once I have read everything and followed the links you have posted.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Braggi

[Pellape]

Take your time. I know it was a lot, but I could not resist honestly as I got the feeling you will be able to pull this off really. :wink:

 

When it comes to the behavior of the visitors here today, I must add we have a very nice and fine dialogue running. I feel everyone is having their feet on the ground, are open minded, and having a great time really. We are not so many at the Oblivion forum, which makes the job easy for Drake moderating it. We are not free from trolls, but they are very very rare. :D

 

Just ask more questions when they pop up and we try to aid you in any way possible. I really like what you are doing.

 

Did you check out WAC by the way as that mod + MOO has loads of nice weapons added. Do check out my mod list as I link to both there + other useful stuff. Not that you can use any of them in your mod, but they are very nice never the less.

 

As you like weapons, I bet you will love my video from 2000 when I tried to figure out how to make my display room to work properly? :D

 

Problem fixed a month later. I do think it was Drake that solved it. Well someone did. :wink: Make them solid, setSolidState 100 I think it was on each weapon to make them stay at the racks but I do not have the script in the editor right now. :D I bet you want a nice place to display all the weapons you are adding... :wink: Lots of the weapons in that video are from WAC and MOO but also a lot of original Bethesda ones as well.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Pellape

[Braggi]

@Pellape

 

Quick reply: Regarding your display room - you must be an absolute saint in the patience department. :smile:

 

I watched your video with mingled frustration and laughter from all the memories of times I've tried to finesse something over the years only to have it go wonky when least expected. (All those clanging and clunking weapons, just when you thought they were settled into place... I'd have torn my hair out in frustration, one strand at a time!) Kudos to you for the determination.

 

I have a longer reply in the works, but am heading out of the house for the afternoon. (Wife and I are going on a park walk and then for ice cream - let me know your favourite flavor. I'll send it by Gold Horse Courier (Aedra approved ^TM.))

 

:thumbsup:

[Pellape]

Yes, take your time for sure. :smile:

 

Well it was a bit frustrating and I also knew that it was not impossible to fix and I did have fun making the video, no matter the frustration. I did see it as a laboratory but I would have not solved it without help for sure. How would I guess there was a function called SetSolidState? :wink: We have so many functions and most do what they say they do, but the list is very very long. I guess now when I modded back and forth for 18 years that I am more patient today really than I have been earlier, at least stau away from frustration and try to focus, no matter what the problem is as i am convinced that it is possible to solve everything in one way or another.

 

 

Havoc is cool. Oblivion is not made for these types of Display Racks. The solution in Skyrim is most likely to lock them in the Display Racks with SetSolidState. lets see if it is available in Skyrim? Nope, not in vanilla nor SKSE functions what I could see. Well it does not matter really. Some stuff is missing in that game, well it is very different from TES 3 and 4 for sure. I am not sure I do like the original racks in Skyrim as they are so big and clumsy but I do like the wall racks for weapons and shields. The ones I use takes less visual space and makes us focus at what is important in the view, the weapons. The performance is also higher now in that room. Optimized some oversize textures and also remade the scripts, took lots of code from the racks and added it to a single quest script instead. Some code was impossible to move but it is what it is.

 

What I really liked in Morrowind was the possibility to drag stuff into the game world direct from the inventory and it was so easy to decorate your home or whatever in the game. Well stuff did stay where you added them as it did miss havoc.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Pellape

[Braggi]

@ Pellape (aka Pekka)

 

OK, I'm back from the walk.

 

 

Before I dig into the intricacies of the nif information you gave me, I just wanted to say that I remember you now. I have a couple of your older mods (Spells for Companions and Halls of the Phoenix) from back in the day. Love the companion spells - yours was the first mod that let people add them "on the fly", so to speak. Big step up from assigning them in the CS or having a random spell levelled list. A similar function was included in Toaster Says Share.. was that influenced by or an evolution of your work?

 

It turns out you and I also go way back with ES games too. My first was Arena where I was given a save slot on an install of the game shared between three friends on a Pentium 90 computer all the way back in the summer of 1995. Graduated to Daggerfall in 1997 and never looked back. Like yourself, I also play a modded Daggerfall Unity to this day. (Favourite mod for it? Ariships - I love the panoramic view of High Rock from the deck as you sail along. Saves a massive amount of in-game travel time too.) In fact, I have working installs of TES 1-4 that I rotate between from time to time. Still have all my original floppy disks (for Arena) and the CDs/DVDs for Arena and all of the rest of the games.

 

 

Now, let's get into what you have posted.

 

First off, I had heard of the technique for transplanting from one nif to another and always wanted to try it, but the version I saw (about 12 years back, no less) was poorly explained. Your version is much clearer, so I am going to archive it for reference give it a whirl tomorrow when I have some free time.

 

Because sickles are an odd shape to begin with, I think the closest I can come is a one-handed axe of some kind. They have a similar silhouette and profile when drawn or sheathed. (I am absolutely open to alternate suggestions if you have any.) Also, when I try doing the mesh transplant, may I ask your assistance/advice if I run into any snags?

 

As far as Blender goes, I have used it to modify and export statics before. (I did that sort of thing when I was part of the Beyond Cyrodiil: High Rock project between 2007 and 2009.) However, I never got as far as weapon exporting. If I have to go that route, I might need some pointers to get things right.

 

As far as getting Oblivion nifs into blender, I'm pretty certain I used a one-off conversion program to go from nif to obj format. This would, of course, nuke all the havoc data but you just created new havoc meshes on export to nif anyways.

 

Now, I am very rusty with Blender today - my version of it and the nifscripts for it is ancient. My archived Blender version is 2.4.9b and the nifscripts version is 2.5.4. Any advice you can give me regarding the newer versions out there? I need to regain some of my Blender-fu and this seems a good place to start.

 

Let's see... what else here..

 

Oh, right! WAC and MOO. I have both but prefer MOO for its clarity (and the harpies). Also, WAC (iirc) disallows permission to use assets outside the mod, so I respect that and leave it be. There is some great stuff in there though... like the sabre toothed tiger. Would have killed a zillion Daedra to get permission to use that one for the High Rock project, if it had been available back then - we wanted to recreate the entire Daggerfall bestiary. (I have a personal project, just for fun and not for release, where I've done that with both Arena and DF... but there are two critters missing. The above-mentioned tiger and the wereboar. Got models, sounds and so forth for everything else.)

 

OK, I think that covers everything so far...? Thank you again for the help and the warm welcome. I don't mind that the community is smaller here today - feels a bit more homey to me.

 

Also, feel free to look over the nif I posted and let me know if any glaring errors jump out at you from the view in Nifskope, if you like. I'm always open to constructive criticism.

 

:D

[Pellape]

Yes, I made those. :smile: I am making similar in Skyrim now, a mod that allows you to mark anything, hopefully, works on actors right now and you will be able to port to them or port them to you. It has 9 slots. Very convinient if a Companion or a Quest NPC do not show up properly and I am a bit tired of moving some with the console. I want it to feel right and also look good. I got a nice function from another player that makes the ported stuff to pop up 180 units from the player, in front of it, facing the player too. Exactly as my summon stuff do in Oblivion. The functions differ slightly, but I guess I would sort it out in some way.

 

Unity rocks. It is a shame though that Daggerfall gets a bit boring so soon. It is fun, no doubt, but the guild and faction quests do get very repetitive after a while. I did fly over the Daggerfall region with an airship, and it took me 15 min to pass it if I recall right. The maps are so vaste, mostly empty space, with some tress and clutter but it is among the biggest maps ever made I guess. It was biggest 20 years ago at least and maybe still are, until bethesda release Starfield with 1000 full size planets. I bet Dall-E 2 made them, as Todd and Elon are close friends these days and Elon initiated the organisation that develop Dall-E, the brightes AI in the world right now. They must used Dall-E as the details of those planets are too good to be made by anything else. Tod does not say how or what made it, but he do mention a lot is generated, still they have not handcrafted so much stuff in any other game as well. So Daggerfall will fall down from the pedestal for sure.

 

Unity really looks so good.

 

 

 

Well I think I used an axe for my hand Scythe. I did find these Screenshots while searching for my scythe.

Here we see an axe and we also see its collisions. Do never try to copy and paste Collision branches as that never works as the pointers will get wrong and the mesh will be useless. It seems the pointers will get right per auto when we only copy and paste NiTrixxxxxx branches.

 

Here I remove a NitriStrips, the axe blade.

 

All that will be left in this mesh will be the Ninode, BSXflags with the info of the collision type and also the NiSTringExtraData, that has collision data it seems and also where to put the weapon when it gets cheated well at the back of the char. So I only remove NitriShapes or/and NitriStripes.

 

When you copy the sickle, you can adjust the size and position of the blade collision as I did mention earlier but it will work as it is really. :D It just feel better to do it, but has no impact on the function of the weapon in game really, except when you drop it on the ground. If you need to adjust the collision positions, I will try to make a small tutorial for it if you cannot figure it out. :D

 

By the way, I did find a screenie of the settings, to make any object you load into Nifskope to get the right textures immediately. It took me 20 years to find these settings :D

 

 

Here I adjusted the blade part of the axe, to fit the Hand Scythe, by changing the coordinates and size slightly of that collision in Nifskope.

 

 

Here it is in the game. I also sent that hand scythe to Maskar, so he can include it in the next MOO. I sent him some other stuff too.

 

But you are free to use it if you like it. and it is found in the Legacy of the Champion.

 

 

I use the latest Blender, which looks a bit different from 2.4 for sure but when yiu get used to it, it really feels much better to use. It looks better, makes more sense as well but is very different from 2.4 and I think Blender is going into the right direction with their UI, as it was very clunky before really. So the Latest Blender, with the 2.6.0 exporter I did link to earlier. As they remade the exporter from scratch, they did start calling it v0.01 and now it is v0.13 and I will test it later. The Tutorial I did post earlier is from Blender 2.8+ something. Same look it has now. When I got used to the new look, I really love it as it feels much better than the old one. Still, I hope the Nifftools team will make a version that not only export the mesh correctly but also is able to import it. Their 2.6.0 imports stuff perfect, but we need to export a mesh without collisions if we use it.

 

There is no need to remake anything to an Object as that process will NOT include the materials or textures right if I recall right. I have done it 15 years ago and i did try it 2 years ago but it is not necessary but anyway, it is good to know how to do it, depending on where you find your 3D resources.

 

If you make that sword, using that video, you will get well oriented in the new Blender.

 

This cabinet was exported with v0.05 with functional Collision. I do not remember how I made the collision, but it is the first object that I managed to export complete.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Pellape