Is Skyrim too politically correct?

[Draconious]

One thing that has always irked me a little bit about Skyrim is how it seems to try so hard to be as PC as possible. Now for example I'm not against females being warriors, (I do have female characters) but it seems a bit ridiculous to me that there are so many of them. It also seems silly to me that in a medieval age that women would be doing hard jobs like blacksmithing and manual labour and that there aren't more traditional women in the game. It seems that every female character is trying to prove that they can be just as good as men in all manly tasks and like Bethesda are trying to please feminists as much possible. I guess I can't fault Bethesda that much, they created the character Jarl Ulfric, but they even call you a foreigner when you play as a Nord which is really stupid. It would be cool if there were some kind of mod to make Skyrim less politically correct, but making entirely new dialogues would be pretty tough without the original voice actors.

 

Any thoughts?

[MidevalGuy]

Culture, society, ethnicity, personal experience and other factors shape how an individual perceives gender roles. In some cultures, there is less gender role separation, so a woman wielding a spear and hunting wild animals to feed her children would not seem out of place if you were born into that culture. In modern societies, certain cultures still equate feminine with being weaker than masculine with regard to "traditional" male jobs like soldier, construction worker, pilot, etc. This has everything to do with Skyrim because if you come from a culture where masculine roles are associated with soldering, hunting, etc., then you might view the game as being "Politically Correct", or having a quite-un-quote feminist agenda... Whereas somebody from a culture where feminine is equal to, or even greater than masculine would find female warriors, Jarls and other positions completely normal to them.

 

The other thing to consider is the Fantasy genre is built on certain conventions (tropes) just like any other literary genre.

 

So, female Wizards, Geriatric Dragonslayers, Dwarven Little People, etc. is common place and doesn't inherently reflect any cultural, or societal views (bias) about a particular group one way, or another unless the author him/herself states that was their intent.

Edited November 6, 2013 by MidevalGuy

[Arimikami]

When it comes to fantasy, there kind of has to be equality between the genders for one simple reason. Magic. It's kind of hard to say that one gender isn't as capable as the other when members of the 'inferior' gender are capable of summoning monsters, setting you on fire with a thought, or ripping out your soul.

 

Not only that, the level of power a mage has scales much differently than that of a warrior. No matter how good a warrior gets with a sword, it's always a sword and they're limited by what can be done with it. A person needs to be within arms reach for them to be able to use their tool. A mage that has become a master of their craft has far fewer limitations on what they can accomplish and the scale that they can work at.

 

In such a situation there are essentially three choices. Allow equality, attempt to relegate the 'inferior' group to the type of work that is deemed fitting for them, such as becoming magic users, with the end result being that one avenue to power is almost completely dominated by the group that was being repressed, or attempt to make them slaves. I think it can be agreed that the first choice is the most sensible of the three.

 

It's also worth noting that, even in the real world, there were exceptions to the common perception that women did not perform 'manly' tasks in times past. The wife of a farmer didn't stay at home and not do anything simply because it was menial. She was out in the field, tending the crops, alongside her husband. Inequality of distribution of labor between the genders was primarily among the upper classes where a majority of men were soldiers and a majority of women spent their time learning to entertain guests through oratory or other performance arts and received training as chirurgeons in addition to overseeing the running of the household when men were away from home at war and even this was not true in all cultures. In Irish and Scottish tales, a number of famed warriors received their training in combat from Scathach, a woman. It was actually a common trend, in Ireland and Scotland, that men receive training in the combative arts from women and that women receive their training from men.

[Draconious]

Culture, society, ethnicity, personal experience and other factors shape how an individual perceives gender roles. In some cultures, there is less gender role separation, so a woman wielding a spear and hunting wild animals to feed her children would not seem out of place if you were born into that culture. In modern societies, certain cultures still equate feminine with being weaker than masculine with regard to "traditional" male jobs like soldier, construction worker, pilot, etc. This has everything to do with Skyrim because if you come from a culture where masculine roles are associated with soldering, hunting, etc., then you might view the game as being "Politically Correct", or having a quite-un-quote feminist agenda... Whereas somebody from a culture where feminine is equal to, or even greater than masculine would find female warriors, Jarls and other positions completely normal to them.

 

The other thing to consider is the Fantasy genre is built on certain conventions (tropes) just like any other literary genre.

 

So, female Wizards, Geriatric Dragonslayers, Dwarven Little People, etc. is common place and doesn't inherently reflect any cultural, or societal views (bias) about a particular group one way, or another unless the author him/herself states that was their intent.

Biology effects gender roles as well, most women simply don't have enough testosterone to cope with the life of a soldier and there have been very few female warriors historically. Like it or not females are on average physically weaker than males, this is a fact. Men and women are simply not equal in that regard, which is the reason most sports are segregated. I'm not against there being female warriors in the game, I just don't like Bethesda's seemingly quite desperate attempt to be as PC as possible.

[Arimikami]

After looking at your initial post again, I'm not really sure what your issue is with this matter.

 

You point to blacksmiths in particular and menial labor in general but, I can only think of three female blacksmiths off the top of my head. One works alongside her husband, one is apprenticing to a man, with only the last of the three running a forge all by herself. Are you saying there should be no female blacksmiths at all? As far as general labor goes, such as farming, I've already pointed out that there were just as many female farmers as there were male farmers in the real world so, this should be a non issue and the majority of middle and lower class female characters I see in game are engaged in merchant professions such as running small market stalls, alchemy shops, or inns.

 

While I will concede that in a straight up one on one fight where both people are wearing heavy armor and using heavier two handed weapons that the on average greater muscle mass a man has will give them an advantage, it's very rare when I'm playing where I come across such a situation. I would also point out that muscle alone is very rarely the deciding factor in who wins in a fight with situational awareness, reflexes, being able to maintain composure, and skill with weapon of choice all factoring in as well.

 

Unless you're trying to say that no women at all should be involved in what are traditionally considered to be manly jobs, I really don't see where this perception of them trying to make the game too politically correct even comes from.

[EnaiSiaion]

This is also a game, and the point of a game is to win. Gender specific stats would only lead to people being forced to pick one or the other if they want to maximise their character, which benefits no one.

 

It is much better to let people make a male warrior or a female warrior instead of restricting them to just a male warrior if they want to be viable.

 

 

 

When it comes to fantasy, there kind of has to be equality between the genders for one simple reason. Magic. It's kind of hard to say that one gender isn't as capable as the other when members of the 'inferior' gender are capable of summoning monsters, setting you on fire with a thought, or ripping out your soul.

 

This applies to settings with powerful magic, but TES is actually very low magic compared to others. The only way to kill people with magic is by throwing harmful projectiles at individuals or small groups, which is not an overwhelming advantage and certainly won't be enough to enslave the planet.

[MostlyMuggie]

It would be cool if gender had more of an impact on gameplay. It would be interesting with changes like how NPCs view you, dialogue, and stuff like that. It would make for more interesting roleplay playthoughs.

 

As a female, it wouldn't really offend me at all. The games are based roughly off of medieval times, and I am not offended or denying history.

 

I think it comes down to is if Bethesda made it not "PC" they would get A LOT more complaints than if they made it PC, and they obviously don't want to deal with that. That it a definite fact.

Edited November 6, 2013 by MostlyMuggie

[rhowington]

Actually, sexism in Skyrim is one of the things I tried to address (in a pseudo humorous fashion) in my voiced mod The Return of Thorald GreyMane. Using the gender of the player to elicit innuendo and sexist remarks, I felt appropriate for the game setting.

 

If the player is a female, he makes remarks any man following one of the perfect, beautiful player avatars. If the player is male it is the opposite, wanting the player to join him in nights of drunken revelry. I even went so far as to obtain permission for the reference use of other modders work.

 

While this may seem like self promotion, it isn't. What I am suggesting is that others could, with a little effort make mods that reflect a more realistic atmosphere. When wearing daedric armor, it is very hard to take a leak.

[Arimikami]

@EnaiSiaion

 

All the examples I listed that you quoted are capable in the game so, it does apply to Skyrim and magic users were capable of doing much much more in older TES games before they dumbed down magic. In Morrowind I had a spell that was made in game, not a hack or a mod, that would cast a 60 foot fireball that lasted for a full minute and did 100 damage per second. They've been dumbing down the magic system with every new Elder Scrolls that comes out but, it was possible for a magic user to do some extremely powerful things.

[Matth85]

@EnaiSiaion

 

All the examples I listed that you quoted are capable in the game so, it does apply to Skyrim and magic users were capable of doing much much more in older TES games before they dumbed down magic. In Morrowind I had a spell that was made in game, not a hack or a mod, that would cast a 60 foot fireball that lasted for a full minute and did 100 damage per second. They've been dumbing down the magic system with every new Elder Scrolls that comes out but, it was possible for a magic user to do some extremely powerful things.

Creating spells in earlier games was never "lore friendly", and got nothing to do with what is possible to mortals in the universe.

Yes, I could create a spell as well that would murder anything. Heck, in Daggerfall I created a spell which killed everything around me, healed me, returned my mana and trained every spell school. I was a level 20 high elf, being nothing but a decent mage.

 

The reason they removed it was to try and fix it. Of course, It wasn't the best choice just to remove it, but I assume they ran out of time to find something better. Also add the fact your only way of magic learning in Skyrim is a piece of ruin with about 10 people.

 

Magic is powerful, but not to the point you could cast a meteor down just by making your own spell. It would require a lot more of you than a soul gem and a magic level.

 

But that is a discussion of "lore vs not lore", to be honest. Arguing that, I might as well say my old Nord Warrior was a god, since he used the alchemy, smithing and enchanting to boost his damage to 2-shot Alduin. In reality, he was nothing but a decent warrior. not standing a toe against the more battle-hardened warriors.

 

TL;DR: Creating spell was weird. You could become too freaking powerful. Magic was never "Dumbed down", it was balanced. They wanted all 3 aspects of combat to stand equal, not having meteors left and right. Of course, they missed slightly, but that's okay -- it's time the Warriors can be a little bit too strong.