Is Skyrim too politically correct?

[Kraeten]

Since Skyrim is based on Norse/Viking culture, I'd say the gender equality is more or less accurate. The Vikings did treat their women graciously. Probably better than any other culture at the time. Even today Scandinavian countries generally rate the highest in regards to gender equality.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Kraeten

[MidevalGuy]

 

Biology effects gender roles as well, most women simply don't have enough testosterone to cope with the life of a soldier and there have been very few female warriors historically. Like it or not females are on average physically weaker than males, this is a fact. Men and women are simply not equal in that regard, which is the reason most sports are segregated. I'm not against there being female warriors in the game, I just don't like Bethesda's seemingly quite desperate attempt to be as PC as possible.

 

 

Yes, females are weaker then males on a physical 1:1 basis. Women cannot hit as hard as a men. That is biological fact. I don't think even most women would deny that.

 

However, females have certain advantages over men as far as modern combat goes that has nothing to do with Testosterone, or lack there of:

 

-Higher pain tolerance (child birth)

-Steadier Aim (less nerves due to biology)

-Multitask better (different thought process between men/women)

-Strategic thinkers (different thought process between men/women)

 

The main issue some modern societies have with women serving on the front lines in combat is the female menstrual cycle. It is a matter of hygiene and also females possibly becoming ineffective soldiers at certain times of the month. This is what the "debate" is really about, but if we were to remove that element besides certain other physical demands (women can't carry a 100lb mounted machine gun on their back) men and women can be equal as far as soldering goes.

 

In the modern world (vs. Skyrim) combat is now digital and/or doesn't require brute strength to prevail. Most firearms are made of lightweight metal, or resins, so anybody who is trained can wield and be effective with them. Drones are now replacing troops on the ground, so a qualified pilot (male/female) doesn't even need to worry about G-Forces, or being shot down any more when they are sitting at a console in a bunker flying a drone thousands of miles away.

 

The other issue is one from the "other" side and that is women are a distraction for male soldiers. This is probably the main reason why many men (soldiers) are not in favor of females in combat, regardless of a female's effectiveness, or not.

 

I apologize if I want off topic, but if we are going to have a serious discussion about gender equality and representations of gender equality (or inequality) in games like Skyrim, we need to hit some of the underlying issues first, so then we aren't tip toeing around the elephant(s) in the room :smile:

[Draconious]

Since Skyrim is based on Norse/Viking culture, I'd say the gender equality is more or less accurate. The Vikings did treat their women graciously. Probably better than any other culture at the time. Even today Scandinavian countries generally rate the highest in regards to gender equality.

The Vikings did treat their women graciously, but they still had their role's, they still had no choice when it came to arranged marriages and raising children and being devoted to the family was more important than anything else. There was no gender equality in Viking society, women did have more of a voice but the idea that men and women are equal in every way was completely alien to the Vikings. Remember political correctness is anti common sense. History's Vikings is not an accurate representation of Viking society either, that program although entertaining was at some points completely ridiculous. Vikings weren't wife swapping bohemians either, only special high chieftains could have more than one wife.

 

To the above poster, women having a higher pain threshold is a myth, in fact women generally are more sensitive to pain

http://healthyliving.msn.com/health-wellness/do-women-have-a-higher-pain-threshold-1

 

Also if women start becoming soldiers on mass there would be very few soldiers in future since there would be very few children, but that's another debate for another time.

 

I just think the game would be a lot better if there were more traditional women and the female warriors were rarer. If women were as physically able in combat situations it would be pretty much ok to hit a woman, it still isn't. But this is a fantasy game so maybe I'm looking into this too much.

 

I also thought the fight between the dark elf and the Nord was a bit silly as well, then again perhaps even Nordic women are stronger than the average male Dark Elf ha ha.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Draconious

[MidevalGuy]

 

Remember political correctness is anti common sense.

 

Also if women start becoming soldiers on mass there would be very few soldiers in future since there would be very few children, but that's another debate for another time.

 

 

Political Correctness started out as a way to address disparities in how society treated marginalized groups. It's evolved into something entirely different now, unfortunately, but the original intent was equality and not "anti common sense".

 

Also, there are statistically more women on the planet now than men (or will be if trends continue), but that doesn't mean all of them would become soldiers, so there being "very few children in the future" is not an accurate prediction at all.

 

No offense, but these two remarks give me a pretty clear idea of what your basic understanding and underlying premise is, so I am going to remove myself form this discussion at this point to avoid any flame wars, or pointless circular debates.

[TheVampireDante]

 

I just think the game would be a lot better if there were more traditional women and the female warriors were rarer.

 

 

Maybe for you, I don't see a problem with the amount of female warriors/mercs/smiths/etc... the thought actually never crossed my mind until topics like this one started to appear.

 

 

 

If women were as physically able in combat situations it would be pretty much ok to hit a woman, it still isn't

 

 

In the real world of course not - Skyrim isn't the real world, and you see plenty of men hitting women during combat scenes in game - or even just with the brawls in game - the Nord Warrior at the back of the Bannered Mare comes to mind here.

 

The entire comparison might be completely irrelevant - Any differences in strength or ability might have nothing to do with gender, just lifestyle - someone wants to be a warrior or guard, they train for it. The want to be a Smith - they learn the craft. Same could be said of the players choice of character, the characters strength is purely down to how you play/train/work them. At present I have an Orc, she hasn't started the Main Quest, knows no shouts - but I can take on three sabre Cats and a Giant with a bow and/or her mace. Purely due to how I've trained her skills. Any of the Male Orcs or Nords do that?

 

Not unless their stats have been raised well out of proportion.

 

Someone already mentioned the female Smiths, so on that point: Take a look at the Orcs.

 

Female smiths amongst Orcs is common, and expected. The Chiefs second wife is known as the "Forge Wife" for that very reason - she becomes the Stronghold smith. She's expected work hard at the forge for her tribe and to teach her children the art of smithing as well. That takes strength, both in body and mind. Orc females are subject to arranged marriages between strongholds, and they are expected to be strong. That strength being a measurement of their value for the goods traded. So the stronger the better.

 

They also have Hunters, and in at least two of the strongholds (from memory) the defenders that tell you to back off are female - there's also female Orc miners (there's female Nord miners as well in other places).

 

Shor's Hall during the Main quest - there's plenty of female heroes present there. The Nord culture in game values strength, so their people strive to be strong, physically and mentally so that they secure their place and have a well lived life. Skyrim is supposed to be a harsh land - the ingame representation might not truly portray that fact - in such a landscape and culture, everyone is better off being strong, as it's expected of them, regardless of their gender.

 

Look at Legate Rikke - she's earned her place in the legion. So (despite it being a single example) the Empire can to an extent, be seen to value strong women as well, or she would have been blocked from raising to the rank due to the preconception that she'd be weaker than a male counterpart - therefore unsuitable for the role.

 

 

Biology effects gender roles as well, most women simply don't have enough testosterone to cope with the life of a soldier and there have been very few female warriors historically. Like it or not females are on average physically weaker than males, this is a fact. Men and women are simply not equal in that regard, which is the reason most sports are segregated. I'm not against there being female warriors in the game, I just don't like Bethesda's seemingly quite desperate attempt to be as PC as possible.

 

 

The physics of biology in the TES universe regarding capability due to gender might be completely different than we know of in the real world, and the "rules" of such expectations might not apply to the same degree, or at all.

 

TES games, to me - have always run (loosely) on strength by race, not by gender. Not in any serious manner anyway - starting stats being different obviously, but again - stats change during play. You play for a while and suddenly you end up with a female Bosmer that can punch out a male Orc. If there was supposed to be any sort of gender related restrictions in place, that sort of occurrence could never happen.

 

 

In the modern world (vs. Skyrim) combat is now digital and/or doesn't require brute strength to prevail. Most firearms are made of lightweight metal, or resins, so anybody who is trained can wield and be effective with them.

 

 

See, I wouldn't count that as a valid argument - anyone who trains with a weapon will get used to it and adapt to be able to use it, whether it's lightweight or not. If a weapon requires brute strength to use, and the one wanting to wield it is determined enough - they will train and work to gain the strength they require to use it. That works for either gender. Lightweight weapons make it easier to use them, taking out the strength factor in either genders case.

 

At the end of it, it's a fantasy game - real world expectations of gender roles should be thrown aside. If it bothers you that much that you can't do that - then mod the game to reflect how you think it should be.

[alissad]

How can you apply real world political correctness to a fantasy world? Tamriel is a made up place, with only vague similarities to our history. So the creators have the artistic license to make it however they want. So, if you want to argue that women aren't physically as capable as men or not, that's a different discussion and you shouldn't disguise it as a question about a video game. As far as I'm concerned the women in Skyrim are as physically capable to be warriors because they are created that way.

[MidevalGuy]

 

 

 

In the modern world (vs. Skyrim) combat is now digital and/or doesn't require brute strength to prevail. Most firearms are made of lightweight metal, or resins, so anybody who is trained can wield and be effective with them.

 

 

See, I wouldn't count that as a valid argument - anyone who trains with a weapon will get used to it and adapt to be able to use it, whether it's lightweight or not. If a weapon requires brute strength to use, and the one wanting to wield it is determined enough - they will train and work to gain the strength they require to use it. That works for either gender. Lightweight weapons make it easier to use them, taking out the strength factor in either genders case.

 

 

The point I am trying to make is being effective with a modern-day weapon doesn't come down to just how well (or not) somebody can aim it. It has a lot do with how effectively they can transport it, draw (wield) it, reload it, fix jams, etc. True, any gender can train hard enough to be proficient with a particular weapon, but a man may have a slight strength advantage as far as carrying and then deploying a weapon like the 30lb Barrett M82 anti-tank rifle compared to a female. Both may be expert marksman once the weapon is deployed, but during combat the male may have an advantage over a female since he can more easily pick up (or collapse) the weapon faster than a female due to his increased biological strength. This is where proficiency (not just accuracy) plays a role and part of that proficiency may be dependent on raw physical strength.

 

Also, even if I disagree with how the OP stated it, I think he may have been trying to say a woman will never be able to swing a sword, or battle ax as hard as a male due to biology. I agree based on biology, but that doesn't mean I believe all females should be relegated to non-combat, or caregiver roles like he may be implying, however. This is where we have radically different points of view and even basic understanding of certain concepts.

 

None of this really applies to Skyrim since it is fantasy, however, most fantasy is based loosely on medieval times and this is where we loop back around to the semi-real world and how different biologies may effect performance even if both genders train equally as hard.

[Draconious]

Well maybe I am looking far to into this as it is a fantasy game and I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I like playing female characters.

 

 

 

Also, even if I disagree with how the OP stated it, I think he may have been trying to say a woman will never be able to swing a sword, or battle ax as hard as a male due to biology. I agree based on biology, but that doesn't mean I believe all females should be relegated to non-combat, or caregiver roles like he may be implying, however. This is where we have radically different points of view and even basic understanding of certain concepts.

 

The problem with women in the military is not even their physicality, it's the fact that they don't have to work as hard as men to become successful. It's hypocritical because to say women can be just as capable as men and then not give them the same exact training as men defeats their own argument. It is my personal belief that women were mostly relegated to child rearing because of their general nature and not because men were trying to oppress them. We live in a plastic society these days so this illusion of total equality can be maintained more easily, the simple fact is there is no equality in nature. That's not to say that women can't try to succeed in things that men are generally naturally more adept at, it depends on the woman. Some women are very strong.

 

Anyway, the mods can close this thread if they want to.....

Edited November 6, 2013 by Draconious

[KanesGhost]

As an older woman, I mostly agree with the OP....It's a simple fact that as a majority rule men do have superior strength and higher aggression (testosterone) and so are much more likely to be the Warriors, etc...A woman involved in Warrior activities being more the exception than the rule. Yes, Societies and Cultures over time have had female Warriors, etc....such as the War Maidens of the Vikings, but they were always outnumbered vastly by their male counterparts.

 

As for manual Labor, I disagree...in fact it has in most Societies...pre Western....been quite the norm for women to in fact get the Lions Share of the hard manual Labor, simply because the men were often out either Hunting or making War...or busy making plans and preparing for such events.

 

Leadership is another matter completely, some Societies are/were Matrilineal some Patrilineal and some relatively able to balance the power equally.

 

There are a couple of Mods I use to try and add such 'realisms' to my Game....The highest majority of my Bandits are male, is very rare for me to come across a female Bandit, because how I see it Bandits are not going to play nice with women, any woman in fact would be in great danger in their company....The Mod I use to achieve this also offers to do the same with the Forsworn, I don't use that one due to the fact that the Forsworn are a whole culture of people living out in the open and on the run, they do not have the luxury of gender specific roles...they all need to fight to survive. I also use Mods that put any female character I play in much greater danger than their male counterparts...they have an overwhelmed and subjugated threshold my male characters don't share, but my males can use against female NPC's....I much prefer the realism no matter how gritty and harsh.

 

I would have liked to have seen more racial and species bigotry in the game reflected upon the Race/Species we choose for our Dovahkins...aka, my male character is a Nord, yet oddly enough the Dark Elf Shop owner in Windhelm chooses to trust him enough...very quickly I might add....to tell him about the Ring and ask for help...And Madanach, my Nord should have to work a lot harder to gain his trust....but get things, info, etc...a lot easier among the general populace as a Nord.

[KanesGhost]

 

 

Biology effects gender roles as well, most women simply don't have enough testosterone to cope with the life of a soldier and there have been very few female warriors historically. Like it or not females are on average physically weaker than males, this is a fact. Men and women are simply not equal in that regard, which is the reason most sports are segregated. I'm not against there being female warriors in the game, I just don't like Bethesda's seemingly quite desperate attempt to be as PC as possible.

 

 

*snip*

 

-Higher pain tolerance (child birth)

-Steadier Aim (less nerves due to biology)

-Multitask better (different thought process between men/women)

-Strategic thinkers (different thought process between men/women)

 

*snip*

 

From what I understand, it is not in fact a higher threshold, but comes down to the type of pain....Women being more tolerant of deep seated throbbing pain, Men being more tolerant of sudden sharp pains....I noted this in effect also, I do a Martial Arts and have noted the men seem much more able to tolerate the pain from the sudden impact of a Throw or a Hit, whereas something like muscle straining stances women have a higher tolerance for....I noted this last particularly as the group I was in was asked to drop into the Horse stance and told to hold it...I am an older woman surrounded mostly by young men, I noted though staying in the stance was highly uncomfortable, I was able to sink into the deep muscle pain it caused being much less effected and able to hold, whereas the young men around me starting dropping like flies in tears of pain...these same young men certainly trump me and the other females when it comes to taking hard hits and throws though...Has been an interesting observation for me.