Ulfric might not be racist after all

[LobselVith66]

 

 

The Dunmer have been living in the Gray Quarter since before Ulfric was even born, after the eruption of Red Mountain, and even the Legion controlled Windhelm keeps Argonians out due to the hostilities with the Dunmer and Nords.

 

And I think it's ridiculous to blame Ulfric for the views of other people, especially ones that have been held across generations. The willingness of the Stormcloaks to accept non-Nords, and Ulfric's own acceptance of a non-Nord protagonist, speak loud enough for his views.

 

At the same time, we are told that Ulfric is more concerned with his own conflict, and the views and traditions of his Nordic followers, than with his non-Nord citizens. The man who takes over as Jarl (can't remember his name) notes that Ulfric knowingly ignored the poverty and concerns of the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter. Again, actions speak louder than words, and Ulfric, despite not being responsible for their lodging int he first place, did nothing to help the Dunmer in his own city.

 

As for Ulfric's acceptance... There is a point where leeway must be made for the sake of gameplay. Based on everything else we know about Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, it is highly unlikely that, in universe, a non-Nord Dovahkiin was accepted so readily.

You're told by Brunwulf, the person who criticized how Ulfric ran his Hold, and then proceeded to run it the same way, except with him at the helm of an Imperial controlled Hold. Brunwulf doesn't allocate funds to the Gray Quarter because there are more urgent concerns, and he keeps out the Argonians because it's dangerous for them inside the city - like Ulfric.

 

And your last point makes no sense when two belligerent Nords accost a Dunmer because the Dunmer aren't joining the Stormcloaks, a Thalmor agent masquerades as a Stormcloak officer (as though no one will take note of a non-Nord being a Stormcloak), and Galmar explicitly takes note of a non-Nord wanting to become a Stormcloak while Ulfric doesn't care about race.

[fraquar]

I can't imagine the Dunmer being in Atlanta in 1863 and telling the Confederates, "but it's not our fight......" They think the Nords are being hard on them........

[Lachdonin]

My quoting doesn't seem to be working right now... sooo...

 

LobselVith66;

 

Your claims are entirely based on gameplay. Using the same standard for criteria the entire population of Skyrim is around 1000, not including bandits, it has no functional agriculture even for that population, and practically the entire province is related to each other in some hill-billy smorgus board.

 

I'm not arguing that Ulfric is the devil. He's certainly one of the more racially tolerant Nords out there. But even his own allies suspect his motives (Lawgiver's son as a second example alongside Brunwulf). Combined with Ulfric's whipping of Skyrim into an Anti-Elf fervor, his absurd abuse of the Reachmen during the Markarth incident and his rather duplicitous abuse of Nordic tradition, I don't see how one can reasonably argue that he's totally clean of the racist card.

 

Is Ulfric racist? He almost certianly is, I have little doubt of that. EVERYONE in the game is racist, that's the whole point! The underlying concept behind this game is the resurgent tensions of Man vs Mer which has been largely quelled by the 3rd Empire for 500 years. It's a paradigm link to the Elhnofex wars, which is what makes Skyrim the perfect setting to start the ball rolling. It's some rather wonderful irony that we're seeing the revival of Pre-Septim mentality, from people who worship Talos.

 

But that's not the point, the point is that everyone, no matter how seemingly benign, has a racist mentality in this game. Even Tullius, one of the most liberally minded and accommodating people in the freaking province, is STILL racist. If you can't accept that Ulfric is painted the same as everyone else, you've got blinders on.

[LobselVith66]

My quoting doesn't seem to be working right now... sooo...

 

LobselVith66;

 

Your claims are entirely based on gameplay. Using the same standard for criteria the entire population of Skyrim is around 1000, not including bandits, it has no functional agriculture even for that population, and practically the entire province is related to each other in some hill-billy smorgus board.

 

I'm not arguing that Ulfric is the devil. He's certainly one of the more racially tolerant Nords out there. But even his own allies suspect his motives (Lawgiver's son as a second example alongside Brunwulf). Combined with Ulfric's whipping of Skyrim into an Anti-Elf fervor, his absurd abuse of the Reachmen during the Markarth incident and his rather duplicitous abuse of Nordic tradition, I don't see how one can reasonably argue that he's totally clean of the racist card.

 

Is Ulfric racist? He almost certianly is, I have little doubt of that. EVERYONE in the game is racist, that's the whole point! The underlying concept behind this game is the resurgent tensions of Man vs Mer which has been largely quelled by the 3rd Empire for 500 years. It's a paradigm link to the Elhnofex wars, which is what makes Skyrim the perfect setting to start the ball rolling. It's some rather wonderful irony that we're seeing the revival of Pre-Septim mentality, from people who worship Talos.

 

But that's not the point, the point is that everyone, no matter how seemingly benign, has a racist mentality in this game. Even Tullius, one of the most liberally minded and accommodating people in the freaking province, is STILL racist. If you can't accept that Ulfric is painted the same as everyone else, you've got blinders on.

Spoken dialogue isn't comparable to population size; you're comparing what's explicitly said by characters with game mechanics, and asking me to ignore the dialogue when it contradicts your argument. We have two Nords harassing a Dunmer because the Dunmer aren't joining the Stormcloaks, we have Ulfric trying to establish an alliance with High Rock, and we even hear the proprietor in Falkreath talk about the Stormcloaks are why he's tolerant towards non-Nords.

 

Ulfric isn't whipping Skyrim into an anti-elf frenzy; that's utterly disingenuous. He's focused on stopping the Thalmor, rather than capitulating to them. And he deposed the Reachmen for the Empire, in exchange for freedom to worship Talos in Markarth, and he was betrayed. Given that he wasn't even ruling Markarth (as Igmund's father helped capture him for the Empire when the Thalmor found out) I don't think his views on Talos are disingenuous. We also have the Forsworn in Cidna Mine talking about the abuses of the Jarl (although they don't specify if this was Igmund or his father), but they don't mention Ulfric.

 

Also, everyone isn't racist on Nirn. Racism exists; that doesn't mean everyone is racist. That's not even close to any degree of accuracy about the setting.

 

As for Tullis, he's flawed, like Ulfric, but he also confides that he's come to respect the Nords.

[SayinNuthin]

 

As for Tullis, he's flawed, like Ulfric, but he also confides that he's come to respect the Nords.

 

Imperialism, as defined by the Dictionary of Human Geography, is "an unequal human and territorial relationship, usually in the form of an empire, based on ideas of superiority and practices of dominance, and involving the extension of authority and control of one state or people over another.

 

The quotes from wikipedia, the underline is mine. That's how empires work on any world :down:

 

I usually play Imperials and like Tullius but, for me, they offer the possibility of stability in the face of the Thalmor. Ulfric doesn't and his racism is a byproduct of his greater failings.

Edited February 1, 2014 by SayinNuthin

[Lachdonin]

 

 

As for Tullis, he's flawed, like Ulfric, but he also confides that he's come to respect the Nords.

 

Imperialism, as defined by the Dictionary of Human Geography, is "an unequal human and territorial relationship, usually in the form of an empire, based on ideas of superiority and practices of dominance, and involving the extension of authority and control of one state or people over another.

 

The quotes from wikipedia, the underline is mine. That's how empires work on any world :down:

 

I usually play Imperials and like Tullius but, for me, they offer the possibility of stability in the face of the Thalmor. Ulfric doesn't and his racism is a byproduct of his greater failings.

 

 

Don't resort to dictionaries. They're terrible and short sighted. Empires are far, FAR more complicated a concept than just that. The best i was able to come up with for my honours thesis was;

 

"A system of political, economic and social relationships, often spanning multiple cultural bases, in which a centralized authority attempts to regulate interaction of the constituent parts."

[SayinNuthin]

 

 

Don't resort to dictionaries. They're terrible and short sighted. Empires are far, FAR more complicated a concept than just that. The best i was able to come up with for my honours thesis was;

 

"A system of political, economic and social relationships, often spanning multiple cultural bases, in which a centralized authority attempts to regulate interaction of the constituent parts."

 

 

Happy to defer to your superior knowledge. So just how many empires have there been that were egalitarian and enabling for their subject peoples?

 

Take your time. . .

[Lachdonin]

 

 

 

Don't resort to dictionaries. They're terrible and short sighted. Empires are far, FAR more complicated a concept than just that. The best i was able to come up with for my honours thesis was;

 

"A system of political, economic and social relationships, often spanning multiple cultural bases, in which a centralized authority attempts to regulate interaction of the constituent parts."

 

 

Happy to defer to your superior knowledge. So just how many empires have there been that were egalitarian and enabling for their subject peoples?

 

Take your time. . .

 

 

Well... First, i think you're misunderstanding what egalitarian is. Thats fine, a lot of people don't understand it. "Egalitarian" is a system of self organization in which the number of positions of power and influence is equal to the number of qualified individuals to fill them. That is, anyone who is good at leading, gets to be a leader.

 

Second, the creation of a definition requires that you create a description of a term or idea which includes every essential characteristic of that term or idea, but cannot be confused with anything else. Dictionaries fail at this criteria miserably because they try to include common usages, slang and idioms rather than DEFINING words.

 

Third. The Roman, Indian, British as well as several 'Business Empires' have all been highly enabling to their subjects, in many cases more so than individual nations were capable. The Romans facilitated trade and technology throughout Europe, connection cultures thousands of kilometers apart through trade, and contrary to the popular belief many of the upper-class citizens through the mid and late Empire were NOT Italian, but natives of the provinces. Similarly, the British Empire (second) drove the economies of Canada, South Africa, Australia and India from the point of bare subsistence to a substantial surplus (looking at the fishery industry in Canada is a grand example of this dynamic) and, just like the Romans, the late Empire had more colonial wealthy and educated people than it did in Britain proper.

 

The misconception about Empires is that they work ONE way. They don't, the flow of wealth, culture and education is two way, and at a highly accelerated rate than you see with standard international relationships. The problem lies in the centralized power, which leaves it more prone to mass-abuse, which, though infrequent, tends to be what history remembers most.

[NemesisTheWarlock]

Just to point this out, how many interracial children/adults have you seen in TES?

[Lachdonin]

Just to point this out, how many interracial children/adults have you seen in TES?

 

There have been many mentioned. The Emperors interbred with Akaviri and Dunmer. The Bretons are born of interracial children. As are the Imperials, for that mater. Queen Barenziah had at least 2 children with non-dunmer. Interracial relationships and offspring happen relatively frequently.

 

Part of the problem stems from the art design and lack of any effort to really represent interracial children in game. I mean, how many Meri children do you see in Skyrim? If there are no Meri children, would you expect to see half-bloods?