Balance.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

For a slightly better description of the topic, I want to know where people draw the line between mods that are cheats, and mods that are not. There's a thin line somewhere, and i got into a major argument with someone over whether my selection of mods qualified me as a cheater... That has been settled now, but i'd like to know just where other people draw the line between a mod that adds a function or weapon, or a mod that makes things too easy, i.e., Cheating.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

My own thoughts are, if it kills everything in one hit, it's too powerful... and is a cheat. But balance must be thought of... is it unbalancing if we get lucky and get a dwemer-type-damage weapon from a crate in the bandit's cave outside seyda neen? On Level 1? My thoughts are, that if it appears randomly, it is already balanced, but then, some weapons are never balanced.

 

SO where the heck is that thin white line!?!?!?! What is, and is not cheating/Unbalanced?

 

*prays for some posts*

[Peregrine]

In the case of visual-only plugins, obviously it's not cheating.

 

For things like weapon/armor mods, it's pretty easy to decide. If the focus is on adding new content (missing weapons, new armor colors, etc), then it isn't cheating. Usually those kind of mods are going to be fairly balanced compared to the standard game. And even if it's lying on the ground free for you, is that really any different than the various daedric weapons you can get at level 1 with no combat risk?

 

For example, the pike mod I created was intended to be a true spear instead of the tiny ones in the standard game. Yes, it turned out to be really powerful because the range advantage made melee combat really easy with good movement tactics. But I wouldn't consider it cheating, because a real spear would do exactly the same thing in reality.

 

If it's something like the "1337 sw0rd 0f d00m!!!!11!!", then it should be pretty obvious the whole point is just to add a powerful artifact. Just look at the damage numbers and compare it to what already exists. If it's higher by too much, it's cheating.

 

For quests, the question is how out of proportion the reward is. An insanely powerful artifact is a legitimate reward if it's the final reward in a difficult mod. But that same insanely powerful artifact from a "deliver this package" quest is cheating.

 

 

 

I guess to end it with a nice simple rule:

 

If you have to ask yourself if it's cheating, it's cheating.

[Malchik]

I have a slightly different measure. If you can do something in a game and proved it to your own satisfaction, using a short-cut method in future games is not cheating. For example, if you spend twenty consecutive nights sleeping by the mudcrab to sell your stash then I don't consider it cheating to dump the stash and give yourself the money via the console. So for that reason if a mod gives you the opportunity to sell it in one go I couldn't care less. But I say this only AFTER I have done it the hard way. I feel much the same about Multi-Mark and rapid transport etc. I've had my games travelling the length and breadth of the country on foot I don't need to do it again. So VTA travel is fine by me.

 

I don't usually play mods that add uber-weapons but if they are the reward for questing I simply store them. I agree with Peregrine there is little point to a game where everything is killed off in one hit unless you are playing the game for an unusual purpose. (If you'd screwed up and had to repeat to a particular point and wanted to hurry it along it would be okay as long as you didn't continue to use the weapon when you caught up.)

 

Such an approach might offend a realist but I have played my realist games with the difficulty slider at 100 and stopping to eat and sleep every day. If all you are doing is cutting out what you know you've done I don't call it cheating. But that is probably a very quirky view!

 

What I do call cheating is using console commands to toggle god mode or to add items you like the sound of but can't be bothered to look for. Or using the above mods right from the start!

 

BTW Crim, which particular mods did your friend complain about?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

multimark - (mild complaint, he gave up on this for other worries)

 

farrp's weapon compilation - (He has a MAJOr problem with this. IT's the same as my dwemer type weapon example, as you can find some good weapons in bandit crates early on.

 

Magical Trinkets of Tamriel - He says giving up skills for magicka regeneration (threads) is cheating, as is the combinable potions available as charms. (Like the charm of regeneration... combine soem 45 of these, at the weight of 1 potion...)

 

Zero Armor. - Found this on morrowind source, and it's not bad for medium armor... but my friend says it's too powerful for the point in the game you get it. And he says that the cuirass is FAR to powerful, since it regenerates magicka. I like it for a) the character it references and b) the game lacks much good medium armor and what there is, isn't easy to get ahold of. I specialize all my characters in medium armor so this was a blessing for me.

 

Uvirith's (so-called) Ultimate Weapons Mod - Considering the extreme cost, and the fights involved, i see it as balanced, save for the final weapon which is without a doubt, cheating. But again, the weapons are powerful so he complained.

 

Puzzle Canal expansion - He doesn't like the artifacts involved. Among others, a CE effect levitation belt. But you have to fight hordes of daedra to get it. (including the unique - Ancient Ogrim Titan!)

 

Any one of dozens of mods adding practice dummies - He doesn't like the fact that you can practice your skills in safety... what's wrong with that??? If i could fight repeatedly without wandering the countryside for hours, i would!

 

And here's one that EVERYONE should recognize... The Illuminated Order!

He complains that becoming a lich is wrong, and way too powerful, as are the artifacts involved (sword and sheild of semuta... the bone dagger at the first lich fight, and several others...) Not to mention the fact that you have to fight your evil side (which is DANGED hard if you actually have a full set of artifact equipment) before becoming a lich, and he says the whole mod is completely unbalancing, especially with the enemy AI flee modifications.

 

and a lot of others... i cut the argument off before it could go much farther.

 

But it occured to me to start the topic, not just for myself, but to get a feel of the general communities opinions, and so that new people could avoid becoming reliant on what might be considered 'cheats'.

 

(I never cheating for anything but 'coc' commands... and that was only AFTER i had been there once before... oh and once to find a bandit cave whose entrance i couldn't find. I warped there, exited and trekked back to town so it would be marked on my map.)

 

Oh and Peregrine? Where the heck can you find daedric weapons without any risk? (asks the guy who just killed a clannfear with a dwemer crossbow on level 2... and proud of that fact!)

[Peregrine]

farrp's weapon compilation - (He has a MAJOr problem with this. IT's the same as my dwemer type weapon example, as you can find some good weapons in bandit crates early on.

 

Not unbalanced. There's plenty of ways to get good weapons at level 1 if you know where to find them.

Magical Trinkets of Tamriel - He says giving up skills for magicka regeneration (threads) is cheating, as is the combinable potions available as charms. (Like the charm of regeneration... combine soem 45 of these, at the weight of 1 potion...)

 

Possibly, depends on the magnitude of regeneration.

 

Zero Armor. - Found this on morrowind source, and it's not bad for medium armor... but my friend says it's too powerful for the point in the game you get it. And he says that the cuirass is FAR to powerful, since it regenerates magicka. I like it for a) the character it references and b) the game lacks much good medium armor and what there is, isn't easy to get ahold of. I specialize all my characters in medium armor so this was a blessing for me.

 

Again, getting early means nothing as long as it's not out of proportion with the armors in the standard game. And your point about lacking good medium armor is true.

 

Uvirith's (so-called) Ultimate Weapons Mod - Considering the extreme cost, and the fights involved, i see it as balanced, save for the final weapon which is without a doubt, cheating. But again, the weapons are powerful so he complained.

 

Difficult fight + high cost = legitimate reward.

Puzzle Canal expansion - He doesn't like the artifacts involved. Among others, a CE effect levitation belt. But you have to fight hordes of daedra to get it. (including the unique - Ancient Ogrim Titan!)

 

Depends on the magnitude of the effect. A 1pt levitation is worthless, and can be enchanted yourself easily. A 100pt one would be cheating.

 

Any one of dozens of mods adding practice dummies - He doesn't like the fact that you can practice your skills in safety... what's wrong with that??? If i could fight repeatedly without wandering the countryside for hours, i would!

 

Pure whining. It's no different than smacking rats or mudcrab/trainer leveling.

 

 

Oh and Peregrine? Where the heck can you find daedric weapons without any risk? (asks the guy who just killed a clannfear with a dwemer crossbow on level 2... and proud of that fact!)

 

The egg mine quest. Find it (no clearing or anything, just walk in the door and back out), report it to the right person (again, no fighting, just unlocking a door), get a daedric weapon of your choice.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Hmmm... i appreciate the opinions, and i thank you all. I would welcome seeing anyones here, but by now i doubt that will happen... as for the regeneration charm... i believe it's 1 point per second, and each charm you merge adds another 30 seconds to the timer... and it can be saved and turned on and off... so it's like 1 potion that can be used over and over. Ditto for their magicka regeneration charm...

 

the belt was... i think... 30-40 points? it's been a while... course, now im playing a beast race (the tartarians) which the guy complained about... which gets a 70 point levitation ability but while it's active it drains their fatigue by 4 points a second... (and strength by 15...) but it can be turned on and off at will... Is this cheating since the race is physically weak and only average in magic, and has a 100% weakness to cold, that they (as winged beings) can fly?

[Malchik]

Actually CE levitate seems to work the same whether enchanted with 1 point or 100! It's easy to do it yourself so I can't see why a levitation belt is cheating.

 

Once you know where to go, (cmac's pinned thread in spoilers has all you need)there is an egg mine with a daedric dai-katana lying around for the taking and a shipwreck with a crate full of glass armour. Both of these can be accessed early on in the game. The mine quest peregrine refers to is another. Get a daedric bow to support the sword - if you can have the strength to carry them. If you haven't there's that cheaty Ozental Strength Items mod.

 

Not sure about mana regenerate as it's not otherwise in the game. Health regenerate is okay as that can be done yourself at a cost. Very useful if you want to be a vampire.

 

Your friend seems more concerned about you getting the things too early rather than you getting them at all. I certainly think it's possible to get basic leviation and regenerate health enchantments at a low level although you do need time to amass the wealth needed to buy them.

 

Grand soul gems are available at level one, free with the Enchanters Rats quest in Vivec and easily picked up in Tel Fyr. Summon Golden Saint scrolls can be bought. Go for it!

 

However I can't see you doing the puzzle canal mod at a low level!

 

Anyway, at the end of the day it's what you enjoy that counts. You're not playing the game for your friend's benefit!

[Kevin Woodman]

To me a plugin that is TOO balanced, adds nothing new, is pretty much pointless. Oh gee another shop with common shoes and iron armor, and generic NPC's with no story or personality, whoopeee. On the other hand placing a crate in balmora with all weapons makes it no fun when you find them in the game.

 

I suppose balance is a matter of opinion, and Morrowind is a SINGLE player game, AND comes with a construction set , So you can do whatever you want, almost.

 

Finding that right challenge/reward ratio is the key to it.

 

Companion Mods seem balanced to me for they kill for you, but you don't gain experience.

 

I have the ManaRegen Mod, which regenerates your magicka according to your willpower, in an attempt to add balance. And it keeps me from using the console. i use a fortify willpower if i need to hurry the charge up.

 

I also have the Runestone mod, which teleports you all over the place, but you miss out on all the stuff you can run into when walking. I use it when testing out a new mod, to make sure it's worth having. before i save my game with it. Kinda ruins the surprise, but saves me from spoiled saved games from crappy mods.

 

And lightsabers and Boba Fett don't belong in morrowind, but I have em, just don't use 'em.

 

So I suppose if youre a hardcore balance freak, don't add any plugins, and if someone doesn't like how you play YOUR game, tell them to get their own.

 

(your plugin skill has incresed to level 5, you should rest and meditate on what you've learned)

 

 

This is cheating: :tongue2:

player->sethealth 900

player->setmagicka 900

player->additem "gold_100" 60000

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

If you were enough of a video game fan to recognize the name 'zero' insofar as his armor, it doesn't belong in morrowind, either... but i use it! (And it goes REAL well with a lightsabre... since the author neglected to create the z-saber...)

 

You're right malchik... i never noticed the ce enchantments working like that... and like i said earlier, im the guy who killed a clannfear on Level 2. LEVEL FREAKIN 2!!! um... not to brag though... :wink2: but i think an adaquately prepared personage could attempt the puzzle canal, (with a nice crossbow... and lots of bolts. Levitate to one of the pillars in the room with the levitation belt and rain crossbowfire from above!!!) and then leave shortly after entering... but you're right, i don't see a low-level character picking up the artifacts (*cough* Thumper *cough*) at the end, or even getting there. The belt alone is pushing things...

 

in any case, everyone here is right in their views... balance really is in the eye of the beholder... See, i thought so many times that "Im going to sit down, learn scripting, and USE that @#$@#$ TESCS set that i paid good money for!"... and if i ever make a mod, then i want it to be accepted by the majority of a community as 'balanced'... and like i said, the thing with the friend has been resolved... He's a real tightwad about some things, most notably, cheating... he likes to do things that seem 'impossible' to others in a game... and he consideres it 'normal' for people to play for that kind of a game. just his little quirk. (Course, he uses mods himself too... mostly visual changes, and realism mods like having to eat and drink, and so on...)

 

but thanks all! I actually like your view best malchik... if i've been somewhere before, i don't wanna trek around for hours trying to find it again... *begins dreaming of a trump mod*

 

cmac's pinned thread in spoilers has all you need

 

Got it. And for easy reference, it's now a book inside the morrowind game itself. Am adding directions as i find the places, as well... might release it someday, if i ever had his permission...