Where did the good games go?

[Fistandilius]

well so be it then. but it may just be your play style that gets you frustrated with certain games. but thats all thats left that i can say about that. im not trying to change the way you play games, or even comment on it. obviously you play games the way you want, no ifs ands or buts. and i hope you can get passed any portion of a game thats blocking your path to completetion. :tongue: :thumbsup:

 

There's no win win situation. As long as your rewarded for finishing the game at a higher difficulty, there will always be unachievable things by certain people. It's disappointing, but there isn't really a way around it. People are rewarded in life for achieving more than others, so it shouldn't be any different with video games. If this is the best I can do then so be it. I just get frustrated in this particular instance because I feel the game mechanics are flawed. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

[Vagrant0]

Erm... More enemies, more damage to you, less damage to them... These are typically all that comes from a higher difficulty level. And in this case, it sounds like the mechanics you have a problem with are those directly related to your choice of difficulty level. Only rarely do developers go placing any special endings or bonuses for completing linear action games at a higher than normal difficulty (atleast as far as I'm aware). Meaning that the only "reward" you typically get from playing at a higher difficulty is the enjoyment of increased difficulty during combat portions. Very rarely does difficulty have any direct impact on stealth portions for the entire reason that stealth portions are entirely dependent on learning patterns and how the game's detection mechanics work... Both of which tend to get thrown completely off by adding more enemies to an area.

 

The playstyle problem thing is similar to the "hardcore movement" in gaming, in that you have people approaching a new game, selecting the hardest difficulty immediately (ignoring consideration for how the game was constructed), and either ending up flaming the game for being too cheap, or being too forgiving for not instantly killing them, ending their game, breaking their computer as soon as they make a mistake. Part of what fuels this is the notion that people need to play at the hardest difficulty to either; get the most true and complete experience, or prove that they are able to do it. Having lived through the NES era of games, I can however mention that generally, this approach to games or game design doesn't end anywhere good.

 

Regardless, the issue here is not about innovation or effort to make a game engaging... But rather how well the game company playtested there portions (using people who aren't running through them thousands of times before release), and how well they refined their difficulty mechanics. It also has more to do with conflicts between your own personal playstyle and the playstyle that the devs are trying to cater to.

[Fistandilius]

Erm... More enemies, more damage to you, less damage to them... These are typically all that comes from a higher difficulty level. And in this case, it sounds like the mechanics you have a problem with are those directly related to your choice of difficulty level. Only rarely do developers go placing any special endings or bonuses for completing linear action games at a higher than normal difficulty (atleast as far as I'm aware). Meaning that the only "reward" you typically get from playing at a higher difficulty is the enjoyment of increased difficulty during combat portions. Very rarely does difficulty have any direct impact on stealth portions for the entire reason that stealth portions are entirely dependent on learning patterns and how the game's detection mechanics work... Both of which tend to get thrown completely off by adding more enemies to an area.

 

The playstyle problem thing is similar to the "hardcore movement" in gaming, in that you have people approaching a new game, selecting the hardest difficulty immediately (ignoring consideration for how the game was constructed), and either ending up flaming the game for being too cheap, or being too forgiving for not instantly killing them, ending their game, breaking their computer as soon as they make a mistake. Part of what fuels this is the notion that people need to play at the hardest difficulty to either; get the most true and complete experience, or prove that they are able to do it. Having lived through the NES era of games, I can however mention that generally, this approach to games or game design doesn't end anywhere good.

 

Regardless, the issue here is not about innovation or effort to make a game engaging... But rather how well the game company playtested there portions (using people who aren't running through them thousands of times before release), and how well they refined their difficulty mechanics. It also has more to do with conflicts between your own personal playstyle and the playstyle that the devs are trying to cater to.

 

You're generalizing terribly, and I don't agree with you either. I wish I knew how to break up your quote so I could address each point, but I'll have to do it down here because I just don't know how on this site.

 

You said the only reward for doing the game at high difficulty is the "reward" you get from enjoyment of increased difficulty. This is not the case. Nowadays you can't finish a game and get the platinum achievement without having finished the game on the toughest difficulty for most games. In addition, some games (like Bioshock) require you do it without even using a restart. Achievements aside, some games even reward you with different endings if you finish the game on a higher setting.

 

In edition, it's clear you have never played the game I'm talking about. Part of my complaint was that the game STARTS as a stealth game, but it changes throughout the gameplay. The innovation that we started talking about is in part the fact that you often can't buy a game that is one playstyle anymore. And the boss fights require you to completely relearn the game at points in order to finish a certain area. For example in Croc's Lair you're required to run at certain intervals, walk slowly at different intervals, use your line launcher at certain points, and use your batarang at certain points. While fundamentally, the use of these items is covered during normal gameplay, the game's pace changes entirely during these fights as you have to learn the patterns or weaknesses of each individual boss. Believe me, if the entire game was all stealth based, I wouldn't have as much to complain about.

 

I don't know if you're just ignorant of console gaming, or what the case is, but you seem to have a very flawed idea of just what purpose there is to playing on the higher difficulty settings. It's not like it was in the NES days where hard just meant more enemies and you got to brag about beating it on hard. There are actually certain things that can only be earned for playing the game on hard. Another prime example if memory serves, the Metal Gear Solid series hoofhearted4 and I were discussing has a special stealth armor reward that can usually only be gotten by completing the game on the highest difficulty without ever being "seen" in the game.

 

In edition, the more companies try to build an ai into their characters, no matter how intricate or how well their ai works, patterns are out the window. It's not like the old days where games like Battletoads were hard because everything went by so fast that you literally had to memorize the game to know what was going to come up next (that speeder level.) I can remember in Ninja Gaiden I could get up to a pretty high level in the game without taking a single hit because all the characters spawned at the exact same point and I could literally memorize exactly where to jump and swing my sword, etc. Those days are over.

 

 

The following is specific to the game I was talking about only. Anyone is free to skip this part as I'm only addressing Vagrant0's criticism of my gameplay:

 

My complaint about the mechanics have nothing to do with my lack of skill, but rather the way the game functions. For example, you are given the option to punch or counter. However, which button you're supposed to use isn't always obvious. You can be facing an enemy and he attacks you and you can sometimes counter. Other times you can hit the counter button all day long and nothing happens until you throw a punch. When the enemy's back is turned, you can sometimes counter, and other times you just take a hit without any option. This becomes compounded when they throw you into a large melee situation like the video shows where much of what happens is dependent on the randomness of the ai for the 8-15 characters that are on the screen at one time. When you throw in the "titan" boss in the middle of such melee, your assertion that it's all pattern based goes completely out the window. Other issue I have, and believe me I didn't want to get into these specifics until you brought it up, was the use of the explosion gel. If you use it too close to a door, the character just raises the item up and literally stares at it. You have to be a certain distance from the door or it won't trigger the animation needed to plant the gel.

 

Another game mechanic that drives me up the wall, and this is not the only game that this happens, is the dodge mechanic. When I dodge away from a villain, I expect to be clear of whatever I'm dodging. There comes a certain point where you can only do much with a button push and realism dictates that the character should behave in a certain way, i.e. when I dodge, I shouldn't still get hit because I just glanced the villain's hit box, even though I never triggered his collision box. And finally, the use of button combos and necessary button mashing is just poor design. The game tries to do too much, and when I have to do a button combo to dodge, while there's another button on my gamepad that's not even being used 90% of the game, that's just stupid, IMO. Not only that, but the dodge animation doesn't work if you're near another enemy, because instead of dodging, your proximity to another enemy causes him to do a jump animation where he leaps over and lands on the other side of the victim he's interacting with, instead of dodging. And the button mashing.... for example. When you remove a grate in the game so you can enter a ventilation shaft, or when you're using the batclaw to pull down a wall, you're required to continuously hit the button in order to simulate pulling or pushing. This is absolutely unnecessary and only serves to wear out the buttons on my gamepad.

 

I also find it irritating that when I enter "detective mode", the game decides to take me out of it for certain stock animations, but then doesn't toggle it back on when its done. The same thing happens during cut scenes.

 

Lastly, another aspect of the game's mechanics that I find frustrating are the camera angles that change during boss fights. For example in Croc's stage, there is a point where you're required to run TOWARDS the camera, so you can't see what is ahead of you. The game zooms out slightly when you're required to turn, but all in all the effect of running from something is lost on me when I can physically SEE the enemy chasing me and I'm more annoyed that I can't see where I'm going. In poison ivy's stage, the camera zooms out further to show her plant animations, but in the second tier of the boss fight they throw more random melee enemies at you while the plant stuff is still going on. The result is, these enemies are a lot smaller on the screen and I have to physically get up and get closer to the monitor in order to see them and counter when they throw punches. And I have 20/10 vision, which is better than the US standard for perfect vision since I just had lasik surgery last year.

 

And again, I'd like to re-iterate that I had no plan to take this discussion in this direction as its obviously centered on this one game and has little to do with the main topic, but you brought it up and I feel the need to address your criticism.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Fistandilius

[Fistandilius]

well so be it then. but it may just be your play style that gets you frustrated with certain games. but thats all thats left that i can say about that. im not trying to change the way you play games, or even comment on it. obviously you play games the way you want, no ifs ands or buts. and i hope you can get passed any portion of a game thats blocking your path to completetion. :tongue: :thumbsup:

 

Ironically, I went to the bar last night to watch the football game and when I got home I fired up the batman game and got passed the area that was frustrating me all day yesterday in a relatively quick amount of time. Then I went through and took care of all the areas that were now open to me having gotten the new piece of equipment (the ultra batclaw) only to get stuck on yet another boss fight (poison ivy). Guess I'll spend part of the day today cussing at the game some more.

 

EDIT: Scratch that. I took her out relatively quickly this morning after taking a break from the game.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Fistandilius

[Vagrant0]

 

You said the only reward for doing the game at high difficulty is the "reward" you get from enjoyment of increased difficulty. This is not the case. Nowadays you can't finish a game and get the platinum achievement without having finished the game on the toughest difficulty for most games. In addition, some games (like Bioshock) require you do it without even using a restart. Achievements aside, some games even reward you with different endings if you finish the game on a higher setting.

 

In edition, it's clear you have never played the game I'm talking about. Part of my complaint was that the game STARTS as a stealth game, but it changes throughout the gameplay. The innovation that we started talking about is in part the fact that you often can't buy a game that is one playstyle anymore. And the boss fights require you to completely relearn the game at points in order to finish a certain area. For example in Croc's Lair you're required to run at certain intervals, walk slowly at different intervals, use your line launcher at certain points, and use your batarang at certain points. While fundamentally, the use of these items is covered during normal gameplay, the game's pace changes entirely during these fights as you have to learn the patterns or weaknesses of each individual boss. Believe me, if the entire game was all stealth based, I wouldn't have as much to complain about.

 

And achievements get you what exactly? Bragging rights? Shiny little thing on your account that says you did such and such? Sorry, cannot see why you would willingly subject yourself to an experience that is this frustrating just for that. Regarding special movies for beating it at a higher difficulty... Sure, this was something that was occasionally done back in the day, but as far as I know, game designers pretty much stopped putting extra movies behind a difficulty just from the fact that it was annoying as hell for the player. At most, games only apply a shortened version of the end movies when played at the easiest setting, rather than force a player to endure the hardest setting just for an extra 30 seconds of pre-rendered footage. And even then... There is Youtube for those that want to see these endings but can't be bothered to play through an overly linear game x amount of times. Don't get me wrong, sometimes difficulty can be fun, but if I'm beating my head against a wall trying to play through the same long sequence a few dozen times, then it really is not worth it.

 

Regarding playstyle... I wasn't saying that the whole game was stealth since an entire game which is nothing but stealth gameplay would get very old very quickly. What I was saying was that in most cases of what I have seen of the stealth action genre, difficulty settings have no real bearing on the stealth portions, but all the bearing on the action and boss portions... Usually resulting in a game that feels much more lopsided towards the action end, especially when difficulty is turned up, primarily because it is these action portions that have you playing through the same parts over and over again, and which have most of your focus... Meanwhile the stealth portions play the same, and are only noteworthy if you happen to be missing some key tool or element that you had to use before.

 

In fairness, I have not seen all of Batman: Arkham Origins, but have seen most of the gameplay before the Bane fight, and even some after. In the later portions, yes, combat did seem to play a greater role, but I also noticed that several of these portions could also be played more stealthily. Boss fights however, never are stealth based... simply because it would be anticlimactic to just be able to kill off a leader by sneaking in and sniping them from the shadows before slipping away undetected. For a Batman game in particular, you would expect boss encounters to involve a greater deal more action than normal. I mean... It's Batman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQYU8UEgudQ

[Fistandilius]

 

 

You said the only reward for doing the game at high difficulty is the "reward" you get from enjoyment of increased difficulty. This is not the case. Nowadays you can't finish a game and get the platinum achievement without having finished the game on the toughest difficulty for most games. In addition, some games (like Bioshock) require you do it without even using a restart. Achievements aside, some games even reward you with different endings if you finish the game on a higher setting.

 

In edition, it's clear you have never played the game I'm talking about. Part of my complaint was that the game STARTS as a stealth game, but it changes throughout the gameplay. The innovation that we started talking about is in part the fact that you often can't buy a game that is one playstyle anymore. And the boss fights require you to completely relearn the game at points in order to finish a certain area. For example in Croc's Lair you're required to run at certain intervals, walk slowly at different intervals, use your line launcher at certain points, and use your batarang at certain points. While fundamentally, the use of these items is covered during normal gameplay, the game's pace changes entirely during these fights as you have to learn the patterns or weaknesses of each individual boss. Believe me, if the entire game was all stealth based, I wouldn't have as much to complain about.

 

And achievements get you what exactly? Bragging rights? Shiny little thing on your account that says you did such and such? Sorry, cannot see why you would willingly subject yourself to an experience that is this frustrating just for that. Regarding special movies for beating it at a higher difficulty... Sure, this was something that was occasionally done back in the day, but as far as I know, game designers pretty much stopped putting extra movies behind a difficulty just from the fact that it was annoying as hell for the player. At most, games only apply a shortened version of the end movies when played at the easiest setting, rather than force a player to endure the hardest setting just for an extra 30 seconds of pre-rendered footage. And even then... There is Youtube for those that want to see these endings but can't be bothered to play through an overly linear game x amount of times. Don't get me wrong, sometimes difficulty can be fun, but if I'm beating my head against a wall trying to play through the same long sequence a few dozen times, then it really is not worth it.

 

Regarding playstyle... I wasn't saying that the whole game was stealth since an entire game which is nothing but stealth gameplay would get very old very quickly. What I was saying was that in most cases of what I have seen of the stealth action genre, difficulty settings have no real bearing on the stealth portions, but all the bearing on the action and boss portions... Usually resulting in a game that feels much more lopsided towards the action end, especially when difficulty is turned up, primarily because it is these action portions that have you playing through the same parts over and over again, and which have most of your focus... Meanwhile the stealth portions play the same, and are only noteworthy if you happen to be missing some key tool or element that you had to use before.

 

In fairness, I have not seen all of Batman: Arkham Origins, but have seen most of the gameplay before the Bane fight, and even some after. In the later portions, yes, combat did seem to play a greater role, but I also noticed that several of these portions could also be played more stealthily. Boss fights however, never are stealth based... simply because it would be anticlimactic to just be able to kill off a leader by sneaking in and sniping them from the shadows before slipping away undetected. For a Batman game in particular, you would expect boss encounters to involve a greater deal more action than normal. I mean... It's Batman.

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with bragging rights. I NEVER play online, and if I had a choice I'd rather not even have a login for any of the major gaming networks. It's just another stupid password to remember and more security (or lack of) to worry about. It's just a matter of accomplishing a goal. If you can't understand that, then there's really nothing to discuss.

 

And guess what? I finished the game today on hard, and was awarded a special armor for it. Which I can now use on the "challenge" levels.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Fistandilius

[hoofhearted4]

I've done the plenty of times too. Sometimes all you need is a breather to come back and beat a game. Then you sit and wonder why it was so hard in the first place. Maybe it's time to give MGS4 another try to lol.

 

And about memorizing. That's why the souls series isn't hard except the first play through. You can literally memorize the entire game. I havent done so with Dark Souls because I don't enjoy that game very much, but with Demons Souls I can run through the entire game in a day and not die once because I've mesmerized where enemies are, what they do, and how to beat them and the bosses.

[Fistandilius]

I've done the plenty of times too. Sometimes all you need is a breather to come back and beat a game. Then you sit and wonder why it was so hard in the first place. Maybe it's time to give MGS4 another try to lol.

 

And about memorizing. That's why the souls series isn't hard except the first play through. You can literally memorize the entire game. I havent done so with Dark Souls because I don't enjoy that game very much, but with Demons Souls I can run through the entire game in a day and not die once because I've mesmerized where enemies are, what they do, and how to beat them and the bosses.

Yeah, I finished the Arkham Asylum game and got 100% of the secrets, but there's a challenge mode on it that you have to complete to get the platinum. I'm not very good at the melee ones because you have to rack up hit combo points and I usually just kill everything on screen without getting combos, but the stealth ones all each have 3 specific types of kills you have to make per each challenge. It's funny because some are REALLY difficult, like blow up 3 walls at the same time, killing 3 enemies at the same time, but the game's AI makes it so random. I've watched youtube videos and whatnot trying to figure out how to pull it off, and I think it's just literally going to take getting lucky one day. I actually managed to pull of the 3 wall thing, but then I died before completely the other 2 challenges for the level :(

 

I managed to get all the other stealth ones done though, even though some were tricky. But it's funny, you can watch someone in a youtube video go through the level, but then you try it and it's a totally different experience because the AI for the henchman is so random.