Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II

[CLB1110]

I loved the first KOTOR. I was very happy to see that this game hadnt been changed very much from the first one. I thought being able to change your allies allignments, and even training some to be a jedi was a great idea. The storyline was excellent and I'd go as far as saying its even better than the story of the first KOTOR. Tell me what u guys think

[FlightlessBird]

Personally, I thought the ending was terrible, (At least the evil one, because I've only played through it once.) and the story line was confusing. I also felt it a bit darker than the first one, and For some reason was, IMO, not as good as the first. Overall it was a good game, but it had some flaws that I wished could have been avoided. I do, however, wish to get around to playing through it once more, hopefully the good ending will be better. :undecided:

[CLB1110]

I have to agree the evil ending was somewhat of a letdown, but you have to admit there were some shocking moments in the storyline :shocked:. The storyline was confusing the first time around but once you play it a second time through things seem to be more clear. Ill admit I havent played it through as a light alignment character yet :embarassed:.

[Peregrine]

Haven't played the second, and after hating the first I doubt I ever will. The storyline may have been good, but the gameplay was horrible. The forced use of melee jedi classes just to have a chance of winning was a disaster. They had a balanced, popular rpg rule system to use, and they removed everything that made it fun. Ranged weapons were made useless, the class and feat system was simplified so much that it became a joke, and the only "roleplaying" you could do was pick which type of jedi you wanted to be. But, to give them some credit...

 

3/10 for a decent storyline but the worst rules system they could think of

[CLB1110]

Wow I wonder if you even enjoy games Peregrine. Or is Morrowind the only one? If you only enjoy one game you cant exactly call yourself a gamer. if you pick every bad thing out in a game you might overlook the good stuff and miss out on a great game with a few flaws. Anyways, once you got about half way through the game force based classes become even more powerful than melee. I agree that the feat system was somewhat watered-down.

[Peregrine]

I do enjoy games, and one of them is the pen and paper rpg KOTOR claims to be based on. The rules have been completely destroyed and over-simplified, probably to support the xbox version. The class system is an absolute joke compared to what is in the pen and paper version. Everything is sadly generic, missing all the things that allow you to make a unique character.

 

Not only that, but enforced melee jedi characters is just stupid. In the pen/paper games, lightsabers do 2d8 damage compared to 3d8 for a basic blaster rifle. These are reversed in KOTOR, except it's more like 1d8 vs 3d8. Lightsabers and melee weapons in general are given their proper place as a backup weapon or a weapon favored by an non-typical character (cultural weapons, etc). Just like how it is in all the Star Wars movies and books.

 

Yes, at higher levels, a jedi's lightsaber damage gets above blasters. But that takes a huge investment in class levels, and by that time the equal level soldier will be carrying around power armor and heavy artillery weapons. In KOTOR on the other hand, using anything but a melee weapon is near suicide at any level.

 

 

 

What makes this even worse is that Neverwinter Nights showed that it is very possible to translate the d20 system into a PC rpg. A game from years earlier did a much better job with the rules, giving infinitely more depth and room for creativity to the system.

[CLB1110]

I havent played the DD pen and paper game (sorry not my era) so I cant argue with you there. The one thing you are wrong on is that force classes are much more powerful than melee classes once youve got force storm and a high wisdom. I realize you can't get force storm until almost the end of the game, but it still doesnt take away from the fun of shooting tons of lightning from your hand :smiley: . Neverwinter Nights is a very well made game and I just recently picked up the platinum edition and I have to say I am very inpressed. Everything in that game seems to flow well except the way they set up multi-player rooms (which was much better handeled by Diablo II) and the fact that people boot you from rooms if your using tooled items, even if they are legit..........

[Peregrine]

I havent played the DD pen and paper game (sorry not my era) so I cant argue with you there.

 

Trust me on this point, it's a lot better. Instead of 3 generic classes (+jedi later) different only in how fast they gain feats, you get more starting classes, a much wider selection of feats, and entire books of prestige classes. Any character you can think of, you can make in the pen/paper version.

 

The one thing you are wrong on is that force classes are much more powerful than melee classes once youve got force storm and a high wisdom. I realize you can't get force storm until almost the end of the game, but it still doesnt take away from the fun of shooting tons of lightning from your hand :smiley: .

 

Which just proves my point about balance. You shouldn't have a single class/character type massively more powerful than all others. In the pen and paper version, jedi can be powerful at high levels. But at equal levels, the other classes are going to make up for the lack of force powers with advantages elsewhere. Like perhaps the soldier wearing flying power armor with a missile launcher and a pair of heavy repeating blaster cannons firing 20 shots per round from a mile away. Or the prestige-classed officer bombarding that jedi into ash from the bridge of his flagship star destroyer in orbit.

 

As for weapons:

 

In Star Wars (all movies, all books, etc), ranged weapons dominate. They do more damage, they're easy to use, and melee weapons are only used in four situations:

 

1) The rare jedi with a lightsaber. Emphasis on rare.

2) For easy concealment, a hidden vibrodagger for an assassin, a soldier's backup weapon, etc.

3) For ceremonail/cultural reasons, like the Emperor's guards.

4) In places where blasters are illegal and too difficult to get/conceal.

 

KOTOR completely reverses this. Melee weapons do much more damage, require fewer feats to use effectively, and are generally the only weapon you can reasonably use. Ranged weapons do pathetic damage, miss horribly even with high dex, have pathetic range, and get you killed from attacks of opportunity and lack of defense when your melee opponent inevitably charges to point blank range without taking a single hit.

[CLB1110]

First off im not saying the force based classes are massivly more powerful, but they do a fair bit more damage and they are ranged. I belive the reason they made melee more powerful than ranged is because in most RPGs it is more powerful. Since Bioware had never developed a Star Wars game before, and the fact that they were trying to inpress rpg fans with a stunning game, I think they decided to go with something more RPG fans can relate to, which is powerful melee. Not to mention this game is using the D30 battle system ( I think thats what its called, sorry I dont have the instruction manual handy) which is the same one used in Neverwinter Nights

 

From my experiences in NWN you can build a much more powerful melee fighter than a ranged fighter (keep in mind some melee weapons have a high crit threat range). Also keep in mind that with ranged you dont get hit as much. You also dont have to waste feats on armor, you dont take as much damage so you dont need to spend as much money on med packs and armor, not to mention you can use your other party members to attack your enemies in melee while you simply sit back and blast away with your mandalorian rifle. Just becuase ranged doesnt do as much damage doesnt mean that it is weaker. It has quite a few more advantages than a melee character does.

[Peregrine]

I belive the reason they made melee more powerful than ranged is because in most RPGs it is more powerful. Since Bioware had never developed a Star Wars game before, and the fact that they were trying to inpress rpg fans with a stunning game, I think they decided to go with something more RPG fans can relate to, which is powerful melee.

 

I know that's the reason why. But we don't forgive developers lowering a game's quality to appeal to the masses (at least I don't) with other games, why should we do the same here? Especially from a game developer known for quality rpgs, that should be well past the point of making mistakes like this.

 

Not to mention this game is using the D30 battle system ( I think thats what its called, sorry I dont have the instruction manual handy) which is the same one used in Neverwinter Nights

 

It's d20, and yes, it's the same as NWN. Just like the pen and paper rpg uses the exact same rules system. And somehow the pen and paper version gets it right, but KOTOR doesn't. The problem is with the over-simplification and poor translation of the rules system, not the system itself.

 

From my experiences in NWN you can build a much more powerful melee fighter than a ranged fighter (keep in mind some melee weapons have a high crit threat range). Also keep in mind that with ranged you dont get hit as much.

 

I know that's how it works in D&D, and it's appropriate there. A ranged attacker in the real-world time period that most fantasy rpgs are based on would do less damage than a melee fighter. But KOTOR is not D&D, trying to force them to work the same defeats the entire purpose of making a Star Wars game.

 

You also dont have to waste feats on armor, you dont take as much damage so you dont need to spend as much money on med packs and armor, not to mention you can use your other party members to attack your enemies in melee while you simply sit back and blast away with your mandalorian rifle.

 

It doesn't work, at least from my experience. The enemies seem to have no problem bypassing your party and going straight for you, leaving you dead from attacks of opportunity.

Just becuase ranged doesnt do as much damage doesnt mean that it is weaker. It has quite a few more advantages than a melee character does.

 

Not in KOTOR. The damage difference is way too much, you're lucky to do 1/4 as much damage with a ranged weapon. And ranged combat almost never lasts more than a round before you're swarmed and forced to melee.