LE Civil War - In Depth Third Option, Possibly More

[AG97]

There are certainly some great ideas on here. The High King mod is great, but I always felt that it lacked the conquest to become king and the politics and diplomacy weren't all that exiting afterwards. The main problem with making a lore friendly and immersive mod where the Dragonborn becomes High King is the access to the vanilla voice actors. For it to be really good you need to be able to interact with Ulfric, Tulius, Elisif and Jarls of the holds. Sure, you could use subtitles, but that kills any sense of immersion.

 

I'm currently working on a mod with simtam that adds a third faction, although it might not be exactly what you're looking for. The story is still a WIP, so details are vague at the moment but the player basically joins a faction of outlaws made up of citizens caught up in the war, ex- Imperials, ex-Stormcloaks etc. The faction exists to safeguard civilians from both sides of the civil war and other threats that have been ignored due to the ongoing fighting, along with Thalmor agents involved in some kind of sneaky plot.

 

Vankrill, your mod sounds very interesting so please keep us posted.

[Grub]

A more interesting mod would be one where you can end the war without the destruction of either side. Basically invent an enemy that can unite both sides, and give the factions an excuse to weed out their most corrupt leaders because they've "gone to the dark side."

[monganfinn]

A modified season unending should be the easiest way to implement your idea Grub, but it would remove the city sieges from the game.

I think most of us don´t really want to side with either vanilla side but want to in fact draw out the civil war.

That said if we let the Thalmor attack Skyrim suddenly it would resolve the cause of the civil war and we get a lot of men vs mer game time, which would replace the civil war part.

How about after the defeat of Alduin in Sovngard the PC returns to Nirn and when he descends from the top to High Hrothgar he sees Thalmor attacking the monastery. From there he learns that the Thalmor used the absence of the Dragonborn to invade all of Skyrim and the other imperial lands of Tamriel. And then the PC can launch himself into battle against the Thalmor on both sides of the civil war: losing cities and forts and retaking cities and forts.

At the end the imperial legion would probably leave to help the rest of the empire, leaving the Stormcloaks the greatest might in Skyrim but in face of the dissolvement of the Whitegold Concordat the decide to not defect right now or never as their main goal; Talos worship, autonomy for Skyrim would already be granted. Hell, Ulfric could even be crowned High King by the moot, reason: beside Elisif at least Igmund and Balgruuf would support him probably as long as he doesn´t fight the empire.

[simtam]

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[AG97]

 

That said if we let the Thalmor attack Skyrim suddenly it would resolve the cause of the civil war and we get a lot of men vs mer game time, which would replace the civil war part.

 

 

But why would the Thalmor do this? By invading Skyrim the Thalmor are throwing away one of their main advantages. It's much better for them to sit back and wait whilst the Empire weakens itself fighting the Stormcloaks in a prolonged war. Even if they invaded they would risk forcing the Stormcloaks and Imperials into an alliance.

 

Even if they did attack it would make more sense to strike at Cyrodiil because at least one legion is busy fighting to the north in Skyrim,

[monganfinn]

What kinda threat then? - Draugr are overused, even if we make them walk under the oceon over from Atmora and call them White Walkers.

 

The Thalmor would attack all the remaining imperial provinces, including Skyrim. The reason:

Elenwen, the Thalmor Ambassador could have said the parties are already weakened enough?

They fear the involvement of the dragonborn? - after all as you said AG97 they don´t want either faction to win, thus if the dragonborn does takes a side, they might fear that that disrupts the current balance of power?

They fear the reaction of the dragons after Alduin is defeated aka they might fight for the cause of the dragonborn? - at least some.

Or they are simply ready in their opinion to take over Tamriel - after all the documents found in the Thalmor Embassy don´t have to be the newest.

The Thalmor could also boost the Forsworn?

Or the Thalmor really take over Cyrodiil while the PC is in Sovngarde and Skyrim and Highrock? are the lone remnants of the Empire, making a war over Skyrim belonging to the Empire rather silly.

 

Or we forget the Thalmor in favor of:

a new Oblivion crisis in Skyrim?

or an undead apocalypse that forces all the living in Skyrim to work together? - would mean draugr, grrr...

Falmer?

Return of the Dwemer?

[simtam]

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Edited December 31, 2019 by simtam

[monganfinn]

The position of a diplomat could easily be taken by either the dragonborn(Archmage, Harbringer, Thane and hey ... Dragonborn) himself or the Greybeards, would be more lorefriendly than Ofi :pinch: even if it would not be such a good easter egg.

Still, do we even want it to be a peacefull solution? Though I guess dear Ofi would be repeatedly attacked by Thalmor.

How about someone attacks Skyrim, Tullius and Ulfric are assasinated mystiriously aka by the PC, without a competent leaderfigure the jarls ask the renowned Dragonborn to lead the armies of Skyrim against the threat, at the same time he would have to balance diplomatic issues within the still deeply antagonistic factions.

Tullius hinted in vanilla that a new war with the Thalmor is already approaching, should Skyrim somehow get granted or win back the right to worship Talos the Thalmor to keep face would be forced to attack Skyrim and the empire.

The weregild concept is really good, and is totally lorefriendly as the PC also only has to pay "weregild" when he breaks the law but how do you want to implement it?

Edited August 24, 2014 by monganfinn

[Grub]

I'm thinking the solution can, yes, be the Thalmor, but not directly.

 

Options I can see...

 

DISCLAIMER: I am not some kind of Loremaster, so I'm just throwing out some ideas here.

 

1. The Thalmor are being used by one or more Daedric Princes, and very few in the Thalmor know this. Boethiah, Mephala and Vaermina would be a pretty interesting supergroup. And you would also have the begrudging help of other Daedric Princes who don't like them. Meridia would dislike Vaermina. Hermaeus Mora wouldn't like Mephala, because Mephala's all about keeping secrets and Mora would want to know them. And Molag Bal is always fighting Boethiah, so if you really wanted his help, you could make a really grey deal with him (his questline would begin in the House of Horrors.) Anyway, once you uncovered this big plan, you'd have a new goal to find out who was working for who on all sides, and the real main storyline would begin as you make allies across the spectrum of the civil war. This would interrupt the regular Civil War questline at basically any stage. You could also side with Boethiah/Mephala/Vaermina, ending with the Imperials AND Stormcloaks as smoking ruins, and you the Dragonborn High King/Queen of Skyrim with a ton of awesome powers. Kill the High Queen AND Ulfric, and have the Jarls trembling beneath your evil feet! Though you're still the lapdog of Daedric Princes, but you may choose to see it differently... Whether the Thalmor would survive as your personal enforcement group, or be obliterated with the rest, would be up to you. Hmm. This sounds a bit like how Obsidian might handle the story. Bit New Vegas.

 

2. Something more internal to the Summerset Isles, such as the spirits or families of the people killed by Tiber Septim and the Numidium long ago. This could also include the people of High Rock, so you'd have some more in-depth quests related to the Forsworn. Again, the Thalmor are being used here, but not as far away from their original goals as the first idea, and there'd be more agents of the Thalmor who are in-the-know. You could really run with the multi-faceted aspect of why they're so against Talos/Tiber Septim worship. There'd be more examples of "outside, it's political, but inside, deeply personal on a social-familial level." And as the Dragonborn -- especially if you're playing as a Nord -- they'd have a giant reason to despise you. Which would make dialogue trees with them very interesting. Also interesting if you play as an Altmer Dragonborn. You could also play with Daedric Prince alliances, but instead of them manipulating the Thalmor on a strategic level, they're interacting in an isolated, seedy fashion with certain higher-ups in the order.

 

3. Alduin alone becomes a more uniting common enemy than he is in the base game. This is one option I can see where the Thalmor aren't the pawns of someone else like I've described, and retain the most similar position to the base game. At most you might see more Imperials breaking off with the Thalmor to help fight Alduin.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Grub

[monganfinn]

It is a good point that we should reserve the Thalmor threat for another "expansion". Let´s exclude their direkt involvement then.

The Thalmor could however covertly boost the Forsworn to keep the civil war in Skyrim active, after they feared that through season unending the war may become less intense or even end if the dragonborn wishes so.

- the Forsworn already have big ties to the daedra via the Hagravens, we could further exploit this element to implement some ideas of Grub. Especially the concept of concurring princes looks appealing to me.

Additionaly the PC would start his own campaign with a rag tag resistence + dragons + the greybeards who may have finally descided to involve themselves a bit more in politics.

In vanilla Skyrim it is stated in the loading screen at least that Kodlak had quite some political influence in all nine holds, as the new harbringer of the companions and dragonborn the pc should thus have some political weight. Furthermore if we give the PC as military campaign base a region in the middle of Skyrim he may even geograficaly be a buffer between both factions - able to battle both sides simultaneously.

Through battle, assasination and diplomacy the PC will unite the two main factions and perhaps even the Forsworn who would be given the Reach as a jarl under the High King or perhaps several other endings: splitting of Skyrim in 2 or more autonomous regions, the pc sells Skyrim to the Thalmor etc