Tired of Vanilla

[FMod]

 

- May not be fun to build my own PC

- Would prefer a case that is similar to an Xbox because of space reasons.

Compact yet powerful builds are not exactly for the beginner. Doable, but with a lot more effort to come up with the right parts.

 

Generally it's hard to screw up when assembling a PC. The form factor was designed specifically and explicitly so that anyone could put together their own. Only thing you have to watch out for is socket pins on Intel boards. Most screwups will cost you the warranty, but won't cost you the device.

 

I would say that if you can't live with a tower or can't find somewhere to hide it (you can have LONG cables), maybe it's not all that great an idea, considering that you have to work on a Mac. There is an "Apple tax" and it's pretty big, but not so big as to make two separate system worthwhile by itself.

 

The best reason people build their own PCs is because they can build something they can't buy - machines loaded with multiple GPU, terabytes of storage, hand-picked parts, custom cooling. Limiting yourself to small form factor limits you to largely the same performance range as a tricked-out imac, and even though it will be cheaper, it's probably not so much cheaper as to outweigh the benefits of upgrading your work machine in the process.

[wismas]

A big thanks to Werne, Thor., Fmod and hoof and any others who may have contributed to this thread. I really appreciate the extra effort and help. I arrived at a conclusion today and that is to get a new iMac. Have to wait until Monday as my wife's company gets corporate discounts from the Apple Store that we will be able to apply to the purchase, maybe 5%, a small but nice incentive. The specs have changed slightly as I've added one upgrade to the base model I'm looking at:

 

- 3.4GHz quad-core Intel Core i5 processor (Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz) with 6MB L3 cache

 

- 8GB (two 4GB) of 1600MHz DDR3 memory; four user-accessible SO-DIMM slots

 

- 1TB (7200-rpm) hard drive

 

- NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M graphics processor with 4GB of GDDR5 memory

 

It seems to me that this will be a very potent machine Mac or otherwise. The only component I don't care for is the hard drive. Apple has flas drives available but they are prohibitively expensive. I still need to buy Windows, Anti-Virus, pc keyboard and mouse.

 

So that should wrap up this thread with a nice neat bow... unless you can give me a good reason not to go the Apple route.

 

I should also add that I did find a horizontal case that should be roomy enough if I yet change my mind and decide to build a pc.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144232

 

Some related questions.

Is Windows 7 the best purchase for an OS?

 

Do you purchase your games on Steam or do you buy a box at a store? Can you still buy a boxed version at a store?

 

Thanks again everybody, sending out some good internet karma to you all! :cool:

[Thor.]

I recommend the cooler master haf xb case if you want a small compact and light weight case that you can carry around, i have one myself..

[hoofhearted4]

I think Win7 x64 is still the way to go. Win8 is getting better. Some people even defend it. But if you have the choice go Win7.

 

I buy everything off Steam. It's convenient and 9 times out of 10 it's cheaper. Esp with sales. Yes you can still but boxes copies but only AAA titles mostly. Steam obviously has the biggest selection all T the clock of a button. Plus the convenience of having a library. And installs are automatic. Thigh if you have a data cap then that's a hug con to digital gaming

 

Lastly there is no reason you should be buying am anti-virus. The aforementioned antivirals like Microsoft Security Essentials, Malware Antibytes, and Spybot Search and Destroy are all free and just as good if not better then any paid AV.

[Thor.]

lavasofts antivirus is also free to use.

[FMod]

I would say the opposite regarding OS.

 

If you just need it for games - and I guess you just need it for games - Windows 8.1 is better.

It gives higher performance and this machine isn't so powerful as to have no need for it. In newer games like BF4 you can even feel it. A lot of people prefer Win7 because it's more familiar, but since you're not familiar with either, might as well go with 8.

 

There's literally no strong reason to go with Win7 other than familiar UI.

 

Steam is better than box for games. It has rudimentary support for MacOS, if your game is multi-platform, you get it for all platforms. Box versions don't even have that.

 

 

Can't you get a SSD for it? 1TB HDD is a letdown for this otherwise powerful machine. You can attach an external HDD (there goes Mac's "all wireless" looks of course) for more storage, you can't attach an external SSD for faster storage.

 

Just went into the configurator. Holy cow, they're charging 100%+ profit on every option. That said, you still should pay up $200 for that 256GB SSD option, since I don't think you can upgrade on your own without voiding the warranty. Half of that is still Apple tax... difference between 256G SSD and 1TB HDD retail is about $100, but you don't want to spend one week with a HDD on a machine that expensive. If you have to choose between 775M->780M and 1TB->256 SSD, pick the SSD option.

 

Here we come to why power users build their own PCs rather than buy them assembled: so they don't have to pay through the nose for every option. With a white box build you could be cramming in 16-32GB of RAM, multiple SSD and HDD, better GPU, etc. without a second thought, since the marginal cost is low. But anyway, everything has a price.

[wismas]

FMod, you are right, if I were to take the cash and build a custom rig it would be a much better value. The reason I'm going the Apple route is that all my work software, I'm a graphic designer, is all Mac based. I can justify replacing my five year old iMac with a new machine that is dual purpose work/play but I can't justify dropping two grand on a game only box.

 

I almost flipped when I saw how much Apple was charging for an SSD drive. I chose the graphics card update because of the VRAM jump from 2GB to 4GB with the 780M. I thought the 4GB of VRAM would be very beneficial for running more intensive mods. Also, a 256GB drive partitioned into two OS's would not give me nearly enough space for my work, I currently use 200GB of space, I suspect I will need more in the future. The external ports on a new iMac are all USB 3.0, if I could run the games off an external SSD and keep the Windows OS on a smaller partition on the internal drive that would be a fair option, but just barely. Just don't know if the SSD would be beneficial as an external drive. As far as aesthetics go, I already have gobs of external storage devices, speakers, microphone and other gear "ruining" the pristine iMac look! :tongue:

 

Now if I were to abandon the new iMac and return to the build a box solution I may be able to get my budget closer to $1k from my original $800. I just don't see that happening. I like the idea of gaming in my office where I have a proper desk where I can set my keyboard and mouse versus the gaming PC being tied to my HDTV in the other room and having to set the keyboard on my lap using a lapboard or something. If only my current iMac could be used as a monitor then I could bring the gaming PC into my office which has ample space. I researched that already and came up empty. The only video port on the back of my iMac is a Thunderbolt port and it's not designed to work that way.

 

You are right about the Windows software, either 7 or 8 will be new to me so if it doesn't make a difference I suppose 8 will do. Everyone, as you stated, recommends 7 for gaming and maybe it is because of familiarity. That opens another can of worms. I've noticed that with Windows OS there are different versions within each release, Pro, Home, Office does it matter to me in regards to gaming? If I were to make an uninformed decision I would buy the cheapest version.

Edited December 29, 2013 by wismas

[Werne]

I'm... not sure how that iMac will behave while gaming, that thing has only two fans that looks identical to the ones from those cheap laptops. If I were to guess, I'd say you can expect thermal throttling. :confused:

 

While the CPU and graphics processor have some sort of a half-decent looking heatsink for a tiny build (3 heat pipes sink about 1/2 the size of an AM3+ stock heatsink on CPU, and even smaller 2 heatpipes sink on graphics unit), I'm not sure if the components will be adequately cooled when you play a game on it. GPU is a mobile graphics unit so it may as well be cooled properly but I doubt the CPU will, I've seen brand new iMac's CPU hovering around 45-50^oC on idle with Ivy Bridge units, I'm not sure hot would it get under load.

 

As for graphics design software, you can find a lot of Mac programs for Windows as well, not sure which you use so I can't say for sure.

[FMod]

I almost flipped when I saw how much Apple was charging for an SSD drive. I chose the graphics card update because of the VRAM jump from 2GB to 4GB with the 780M. I thought the 4GB of VRAM would be very beneficial for running more intensive mods.

 

Nah, it's of pretty marginal value. There are some rare instances in which you'd prefer 4GB rather than 2, but it will be a moderate gain, and we're really talking peak loads. Meaning for 1 second you'd have 20 fps instead of 15 fps. About the only reason I didn't post "stay with 2GB" is because you absolutely can't upgrade it later.

 

Another is that extra VRAM can be used by graphics processing software - although such software isn't sensitive to VRAM speed (only quantity), so midrange cards with cheap DDR3 are usually used for that purpose rather than expensive GDDR5.

 

Anyway, there will be a lot more instances when a SSD will help your game performance than when 4GB will help it. A heavily modded game will tax your storage harder than it taxes your VRAM. While modding and thus frequently testing, I actually run Morrowind/Fallout/Skyrim (and some other games) off a 40GB ramdrive, because that access speed makes difference even compared to a SSD. Not an option in your case, but a hard drive really isn't desirable.

 

 

The external ports on a new iMac are all USB 3.0, if I could run the games off an external SSD and keep the Windows OS on a smaller partition on the internal drive that would be a fair option, but just barely.

 

USB and SSD don't mix well. Put simple, USB sucks; it's a sad thing USB3 won over eSATA. While both are a mess (USB3 with its extra pins and eSATA with requiring non-spec eSATAp to be useful), USB3 is just "more the same". It fails to address the qualitative problems of USB and it lacks features like command queuing that are required to exploit the performance advantages of SSD.

 

While still faster than an internal HDD, a USB attached external SSD is far slower than one on a proper SATA connection.

 

To put it blunt, if it's difficult for you to afford it with this option, which shouldn't have been an option in the first place, then it might not be the right model to begin with.

And the cost here isn't silly high. $200 is about average for a 256GB SSD; compared to their other options, it's almost reasonable. Of course, you lose out on that 1TB HDD, but it's a Seagate anyway.

 

Should you later decide you do want an internal SSD, you don't want to have to install it inside an iMac: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Intel+21.5-Inch+EMC+2544+Teardown/11936

 

They're getting harder and harder to upgrade or repair (it's reported that the last generation isn't even recyclable because everything's glued in one - http://www.pcworld.com/article/259043/apples_epeat_withdrawal_raises_recycling_disassembly_concerns.html ) every year; it's not like an older one where you'd only lose your warranty. What you buy is what it stays.

 

 

Also, a 256GB drive partitioned into two OS's would not give me nearly enough space for my work, I currently use 200GB of space, I suspect I will need more in the future.

 

What do you have that uses 200GB of space?

You don't *have* to put everything on the system drive. Just get into the habit of storing everything that's not a program or your current working project on a permanently attached external drive.

 

Also, turn on NTFS compression in Windows on all folders except root. There's no reason, ever, to turn NTFS compression off (it takes less time to pack/unpack than to read/write the extra data even off the fastest SSD). Same with its equivalent in MacOS. Manually set your paging file to 256MB.

 

You can also move folders from one drive to another and link them so the OS thinks it's still on the original drive. Called NTFS Junctions in Windows and Aliases in MacOS, and easy to manage. This way you can e.g. move all your old projects to HDD and still have them accessible at the original location.

 

The same can be done for games, or, easier, if you have broadband to spare, Steam can be directed to reinstall the game into another Steam library that you place on a HDD.

 

I actually go further in my storage subsystem and distribute games themselves between different drives (small block data on SSD or RAM, video and music and so on on HDD RAID), but that's a more advanced solution that I need to maximize access speed while running heavy mods and loading lossless music instead of mp3s.

[wismas]

Werne, I did a bit of internet research regarding iMac's overheating when used for gaming. I did find some issues on a few forums but the majority of users that used iMacs for games like Skyrim didn't say it was a problem. They did state the back gets hot but after running a temp program they were running in normal parameters. Also stated, the 27" iMacs have far fewer issues with overheating. Environmental conditions help quite a bit, cool room and out and the open, common sense kinda stuff. My iMac is in a sensible environment.

 

You mentioned the ivy bridge, one user of an iMac was concerned that was his problem with overheating. I didn't really understand what he was trying to say as he wasn't a very good writer and contradicted himself a few times. Having said that he was very adamant about the ivy bridge component. Sorry to say, I don't know anything about it and I haven't looked it up yet.

 

You are right, I could switch over to a PC for my graphics work but I'm very content in my Mac environment. I've been working on Macs since the IIci's were hot! I mostly used Adobe Suite software and I have a few oddball animation, video editing and 3D modeling packages that are Mac specific. Plus all my fonts, which are quite spendy.

 

FMod, I'm really confused about the value of certain components over others. All the reading I've done previously suggested the more VRAM the better. I get what you are saying about accessing the HD for data, the 360 version of Skyrim is so putzy when it comes to loading entering buildings, cities and dungeons. Plus there is a slowdown when lots of characters are on the screen as well as texture pop and distance drawing. Overall the Xbox experience is nice though and plenty fun to play. Anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is I bet most machines are running traditional hard drives over SSD's so I can't imagine that it is all that awful. Having said that, I would prefer the SSD.

 

You got me on the storage. It actually makes sense to move some of my stuff off the systems main drive. I suppose I could live with a smaller drive and take advantage of external storage. I do that a bit now anyway for other reasons.

 

I still don't really understand Steam. I mean I get the concept but not the details in using it. So you purchase your game from Steam, download it to your system. If for some reason your files get corrupted or your disk goes bad are you allowed to retrieve a copy from Steam at no cost or do you have to back up your downloaded version at home? Once the game is loaded on your system do you have to have a live connection to play?

 

Looking at the big picture, the new iMac I have picked out should handle Skyrim very well, don't you think? Other than the potential overheat issue I don't understand where it may be lacking.

 

I am trying to stay open minded so I went to New Egg and tried to pick out components for a potent PC based home system. I followed the link to Thor.'s thread with the compact towers and here is what I put together.

 

Case - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352027

 

GPU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127748

 

Power Supply - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182278

 

RAM - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231527

 

CPU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116899

 

SSD - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147193

 

OS - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147193

 

Minus a few items like keyboard, mouse, game the total for this build is $1004.00. I know this is over my original budget of $800 but still half the price of a new iMac. I don't know if those pieces will even fit into the Fractal Design case or if the components would work well with one another, balanced between the GPU, CPU, power supply. This is my first attempt so I'm sure I missed something. If the case is too small I also like the Fractal Design Node 605 but I couldn't find it at New Egg, http://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/cases/node-series/node-605.

 

The more I look at the mods on the nexus the more I want a machine that will make a nice looking game, it's the designer in me. I understand the best still images are from ENB mods which I understand to be FPS killers but it would be fun to try a game that rich as well as a bunch of immersion mods and most of all to get decent looking characters in the game, the 360 npc's are awful.