Special Powers...

[Rethrain]

Does this mean that Vagrant is not getting a spanking?

 

*Puts popcorn down*

[Vagrant0]

Does this mean that Vagrant is not getting a spanking?

 

*Puts popcorn down*

Of course not... The only thing I'm doing wrong is potentially steering the topic off track by trying to explain my reasons for believing that the world might be less inclined to allow a person with special powers to live in peace.

 

Afterall, the point of the thread is to debate the likelihood of outcomes which might result in such a person coming forward, not to try and quantify to excruciating detail as to why we believe that to be the case. Naturally, you would likely need to offer some instances to support those views, but there is a limit to which doing so becomes secondary to the original purpose. This topic is a matter of opinions and imagination based on our own perceptions and experiences of society. I can understand why someone might entertain the thought that a person with special powers might be held in a positive light, but don't really see any basis for such a view beyond just being optimistic. There is nothing wrong with trying to illustrate reasons why this might, or might not be the case, but the discussion need not be quite so confrontational or insulting.

[Venetia_CV]

Well, Vagrant0, I must thank-you for pointing out to me that my ability to take your meaning is limited. That you have repeatedly done so in this thread to anyone who presented a pointed response is, again, only to your credit.

 

I am not particulary keen on attracting the ire or censure of those, by whose grace I am a member, that have cautioned against religious debates. Clearly, you hold some say in how the guidelines are followed and have my admiration. I have made my point on the examples given as religious persecution, and decline further trespass.

 

While I will agree that the United States has its own unique perspective on 'church and state' (as governed under the Establishment Clause and other legal precedents) it is by far not the only state to practice some form of this notion. I offer you a list that includes: Australia, Canada (woot), France, Germany, Japan, Mexico, Sweden, and Turkey. There are other cases, but I anticipate you will prefer to do your own research.

 

I quite agree that Jesse Owens' physical abilities were neither superhuman nor paranormal. However, he entered upon a stage that was meant to display the superhuman, pure, and possibly (from Hitler's perspective) paranormal excellence of the Aryan race. Those 1936 Olympics were to be a triumph for Hitler and his view that there was a difference between his super race and all others. Owens dashed those Nazi aspirations. I presented this case as a real world event that touched on the hypothetical themes of your opening salvo. That, in effect, it was not necessary to use religious reference points to buttress your position.

 

We are likely to agree that what Albert Einstein did possess was a mind most powerful and unique. The type of mind nation states would covet as being part of their scientific community. Though his brain may have been preserved with or without his consent prior to death, it is certain that he was not denied his freedom of liberty. Another real world example of someone unique enough to have been spirited away and held for observation.

 

You mention David Beckham and invasive testing of his abilities. David and Victoria Beckham are invasive.

 

I actually own a small comic book collection. I have prized Vampirella and works by Howard Chaykin among others. Anyone who lovingly treasures copies of Marshal Law comics from Pat Mills and Kevin O'Neill, which satirised and zinged U.S. government policy and the usual superhero conventions, would not take a dim view of the genre. On the other hand, I ain't gonna build my arguments in this sort of debate on comic book fiction. As for fear, it sells.

 

My previous closing statement was about bias. South Africa, by example, is a country that has a cultural tradition of using witch doctors. A western, scientific, rationalisation of how witch doctors are able to heal the sick or ill is easy enough to obtain. What is more curious is that the tradition is maintained. The sick or ill find relief or understanding. In the life of the person who has found aid, the witch doctor has, what science would describe as, paranormal power.

 

I say again, that is is important to neither impose our biases nor dismiss the existence of a differing view of reality and one's place in the universe. Your comments, Vagrant0, purport otherwise.

 

-Kitten

 

P.S. I wrote these rebuttals in a lighthearted way, so as to engage and rekindle what appeared a dead thread. That you feel insulted by my arguments is reason enough for me to thank you, most seriously, for the debate. In turn, I have taken no great offense at your condescending manner and wish you continued success.

[Vagrant0]

I say again, that is is important to neither impose our biases nor dismiss the existence of a differing view of reality and one's place in the universe. Your comments, Vagrant0, purport otherwise.

I have no problem with someone arguing a differing view, it is when they do so without trying to support their own view that there is a problem. Most of your responses seem to have been aimed directly at trying to suggest that there was some alternate view, but never really going so far as explaining the basis for that view. This is why most of my responses may suggest a condescending manner. It is not easy to determine what you intend to be the matter of the debate from just baseless attacks as an effort to get me upset. If it is seen as appearing condescending, or outright dismissing, it is only because you did little to establish your own point of view.

 

While it is true that neither of those people were spirited away, again I point out that neither of those people possessed abilities which were beyond the understanding of the countries in which they lived. Again, that is the difference you seem to be ignoring. I would also like to point out that Einstein's "freedoms" were, at several points limited so as to ensure his safety, security and secrecy. It's not like they just brought him in from Europe, and just let him do as he wished without some limitations or monitoring.

 

I am not familiar with the practices of African Shamanism, so cannot comment on this, I would however like to point out that this still likely follows the same model as those eastern mystics... Where the real effect is due to both the chemicals people are given/exposed to, and the suggestion that they are being healed, and not so much the ritual or the magic powers of the practitioner.

 

As for not basing your arguments on comic book fiction for this debate... This debate IS pretty much comic book-type fiction by nature, in that we are discussing the reactions to something which exists only in the hypothetical. Although I will agree, much of this is skewed more by marketing than real views, earlier stories were not so tarnished, and one must still borrow views and reactions from reality in order to make fiction believable. In that respect, I still see some validity since many of those stories are started simply as a "what if" sort of situation, not too different from any other hypothetical question. But, again, as I pointed out, the same sorts of reactions also exist in other works of fiction, so if you disregard comics, you should probably also disregard all other works of fiction. While this is all well and good, it does create a problem since there really are no good examples within non-fiction which might touch on this subject that haven't already been mentioned. To clarify, by dismissing works of fiction, you also dismiss any examples of fiction which might also support your position. Since we are talking about a hypothetical situation which exists primarily within the realm of fantasy, I'm willing to accept the validity of these sources as they might pertain to the subject, so long as these things still attempt to parallel real life (in other words, "Yes" to Muggles, "No" to Hobbits. I would hope you understand this distinction beyond the mere reference.)

 

 

On a sidenote about the rules of this forum. I have no say in those rules, and make no claim to that effect. The rules are established by Dark0ne, and are upheld by the moderating team. The only difference which might exist between myself and the average user of these forums is that I understand the rules and the intentions for which they exist. Nothing I have said here bypasses or adjusts the rules as I understand them. I acknowledge the rights that people have to believe what they will, and become offended as soon as anyone mentions something differently. The purpose of the rule, as I understand it, is to prevent people from getting into shouting matches, flames, racial slurs because one person is arguing against the merits, values, or beliefs of another. Religion, like politics, is one debate where nobody ever concedes. My comments toward mysticism make no claims about the merits, values, or beliefs of those systems, but instead present real instances where practitioners were unable to prove the existence of their own powers. I am not arguing for or against religion, only mentioning those instances which support my position.