Where did the Dragonborn cross the border into Skyrim?

[Tidus44]

 

 

I've read several of the replies to this topic and studied the map of the areas in question. These are my conclusions:

 

The Imperial ambush at Darkwater Crossing makes sense because they were trying to capture Ulfric seeing as how he had killed the High King of Skyrim. There's also an Imperial military camp in the Rift hold which could explain them being able to pull of an ambush. The same could also be said of Ralof being a Stormcloak he may have been assigned to the area to keep watch for the Imperials that would be pursuing Ulfric. Lokir being caught there doesn't make that much sense and the Dragonborn being caught there doesn't make a damn bit of sense. I think the writers left some gaps in the back story, didn't account for any inconsistancies, and didn't give as many details as they could have to help the story make more sense. Also, the conspiracy theory someone mentioned about the prisoners being taken to Fort Neugrad and then onto Helgen to destory the Stormcloaks and make Tulius a hero is a completely resonable theory.

 

Why would the Imperials travel from Darkwater Crossing through Helgen to Fort Neugrad and then back to Helgen?

 

After the Imperial ambush at Darkwater Crossing, it's possible that the Imperials then took the prisonsers to Fort Neugard for temporay holding until their fate was decieded. If you look on a map the road going west towards Helgen forks just before the gates to the village. So they could've taken the road south to the fort first to join the other prisoners. Then supposedly upon General Tulius's decision, the prisoners were taken to Helgen. Also, remember that in the opening scene of the game there is another carriage ahead of the one Ralof, Lokir, Ulfric, and the Dragonborn are in. So maybe the other Stormcloak prisoners had also been held at Fort Neugard.

 

 

While I don't think an over night stay at Fort Neugrad occurred,it may be possible, what reasoning or evidence is there to suggest this?

 

The reason I don't think there was any travel other than from the ambush site to Helgen is the initial conversation in the game has no indication that Rolaf has met or knows or has ever spoken to or even seen either the PC or Lokir before meeting them in the cart. Rolaf says, "You're awake" suggesting the PC was asleep or unconscious, so am I to believe the guards picked the PC up from the cell at Fort Neugrad and gently placed the PC in the cart for the trip to Helgen? How long was the PC unconscious or asleep? How would Rolaf and Ulfric not have met the PC while in the cells at Fort Neugrad (even if just over night) or had some conversation prior to the PC waking up? A lot of questions, but no answers, so I ask what evidence or even suggestion is there that any of the prisoners were ever at Fort Neugrad?

The entire opening sequence and conversations suggest to me that they were all captured at the ambush at Darkwater Crossing and taken directly to Helgen. The PC was either asleep or unconscious when Ulfric was captured and woke up just as they approached Helgen.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Tidus44

[Nilanius]

My theory goes like this:

• PC Crossed a border, was caught with Lokir and the stormcloaks and knocked unconcious
• Standing orders for Tullius was that if he ever captured Ulfric alive, he's to take him to Cyrodiil for a trial
• They probably passed Helgen to head for the fort before proceeding to the border
• chances are, the thalmor met Tullius at the fort and gave him the idea of rather than a trial, which could potentially free Ulfric, why not frame the stormcloaks?
• So Tullius orders the wagons to not stop at the fort but to proceed a little further down the road then turn to head back to Helgen
• queue the opening sequence

So if the dragon had not shown up, Tullius could of quietly executed the stormcloaks and Ulfric, then so he could justify defying standing orders, orders his men to destroy the town so they can blame it on the stormcloaks. But dragon showed up, and we got the story we got.

 

The reason I suspect this conspiracy theory is what I have seen in regards to Tullius himself:

• First He is clearly chatting it up with the Thalmor when you enter Helgen
• The quest to rescue Thorald from Northwatch Keep, the missive to the Battle-born is by Tullius saying he knows the Thalmor have him, and it should just be quietly swept under the rug
• I entered Dour Castle and listened in on the entire back and forth between him and Rikke, and it is clear he has no respect for the Nords of Skyrim, and isn't above doing underhanded stuff to get what he wants done, to happen.

Hence how I pieced together why they were taken to Helgen, instead of being taken before the emperor. It also explains the captain's insistence that regardless of being on the list or not, the PC is to goto the block. If they weren't up to something fishy, then why send an innocence to the block? Also consider, every single stormcloak soldier was on their list, and the horse thief Lokir. The dragonborn is, as far as I could tell, the only one that has committed no crimes and is to be killed regardless. The only reason an innocence would be executed with war prisoners, is if the witnesses wont be alive after that to tell their tale.

 

After all, this is Skyrim. Where if you don't kill that bunny that witnessed you murdering that traveling mercenary, that bunny tells the hold you committed the murder in, and you get a bounty.

[kimmera]

My theory goes like this:

• PC Crossed a border, was caught with Lokir and the stormcloaks and knocked unconcious
• Standing orders for Tullius was that if he ever captured Ulfric alive, he's to take him to Cyrodiil for a trial
• They probably passed Helgen to head for the fort before proceeding to the border
• chances are, the thalmor met Tullius at the fort and gave him the idea of rather than a trial, which could potentially free Ulfric, why not frame the stormcloaks?
• So Tullius orders the wagons to not stop at the fort but to proceed a little further down the road then turn to head back to Helgen
• queue the opening sequence

So if the dragon had not shown up, Tullius could of quietly executed the stormcloaks and Ulfric, then so he could justify defying standing orders, orders his men to destroy the town so they can blame it on the stormcloaks. But dragon showed up, and we got the story we got.

 

The reason I suspect this conspiracy theory is what I have seen in regards to Tullius himself:

• First He is clearly chatting it up with the Thalmor when you enter Helgen
• The quest to rescue Thorald from Northwatch Keep, the missive to the Battle-born is by Tullius saying he knows the Thalmor have him, and it should just be quietly swept under the rug
• I entered Dour Castle and listened in on the entire back and forth between him and Rikke, and it is clear he has no respect for the Nords of Skyrim, and isn't above doing underhanded stuff to get what he wants done, to happen.

 

 

There are two problems with your theory. First, is there any evidence of any such standing orders to Tullius? Second, there is evidence that the Thalmor wanted the civil war to continue. Executing Ulfric would be against their best interests. If Ulfric was freed to continue the war somehow they would be better off, not worse off.

[Relativelybest]

 

There are two problems with your theory. First, is there any evidence of any such standing orders to Tullius? Second, there is evidence that the Thalmor wanted the civil war to continue. Executing Ulfric would be against their best interests. If Ulfric was freed to continue the war somehow they would be better off, not worse off.

 

 

More specifically, the Ulfric's dossier suggests that the Thalmor were planning on springing Ulfric free at Helgen somehow, going as far as making an exception to their hands-off approach, only Alduin did their job for them. They really didn't want Tullius to cut Ulfric's head off.

[Tidus44]

My theory goes like this:

• PC Crossed a border, was caught with Lokir and the stormcloaks and knocked unconcious
• Standing orders for Tullius was that if he ever captured Ulfric alive, he's to take him to Cyrodiil for a trial
• They probably passed Helgen to head for the fort before proceeding to the border
• chances are, the thalmor met Tullius at the fort and gave him the idea of rather than a trial, which could potentially free Ulfric, why not frame the stormcloaks?
• So Tullius orders the wagons to not stop at the fort but to proceed a little further down the road then turn to head back to Helgen
• queue the opening sequence

So if the dragon had not shown up, Tullius could of quietly executed the stormcloaks and Ulfric, then so he could justify defying standing orders, orders his men to destroy the town so they can blame it on the stormcloaks. But dragon showed up, and we got the story we got.

 

The reason I suspect this conspiracy theory is what I have seen in regards to Tullius himself:

• First He is clearly chatting it up with the Thalmor when you enter Helgen
• The quest to rescue Thorald from Northwatch Keep, the missive to the Battle-born is by Tullius saying he knows the Thalmor have him, and it should just be quietly swept under the rug
• I entered Dour Castle and listened in on the entire back and forth between him and Rikke, and it is clear he has no respect for the Nords of Skyrim, and isn't above doing underhanded stuff to get what he wants done, to happen.

Hence how I pieced together why they were taken to Helgen, instead of being taken before the emperor. It also explains the captain's insistence that regardless of being on the list or not, the PC is to goto the block. If they weren't up to something fishy, then why send an innocence to the block? Also consider, every single stormcloak soldier was on their list, and the horse thief Lokir. The dragonborn is, as far as I could tell, the only one that has committed no crimes and is to be killed regardless. The only reason an innocence would be executed with war prisoners, is if the witnesses wont be alive after that to tell their tale.

 

After all, this is Skyrim. Where if you don't kill that bunny that witnessed you murdering that traveling mercenary, that bunny tells the hold you committed the murder in, and you get a bounty.

 

Not an entirely unbelievable theory; and while I don't specifically agree with the reasoning, there is the fact the opening sequence has the carts arriving at Helgen from the south road; not from the the east road, which does make one wonder how that came about.

 

I can't think of any reason why Tullius would have had any order for a trial or an execution of Ulfric in Cyrodiil as a show of the Empires power or authority. The rebellion isn't seen as anything other than a minor nuisance that Tullius has to deal with in order to get on with other more important issues. Tullius does refer to it as a "little rebellion" and there are strong indications in the game that he would much rather be focusing on dealing with the Thalmor problem than Ulfric. The only importance he assigns to the "little rebellion" is that it has taken critical resources away from the Empire and needs to be dealt with quickly.

 

If anything, I could believe that prisoners may have been taken to Fort Neugrad as a matter of routine, and that Tullius on learning Ulfric had been captured, went to Helgen arriving at about the same time the carts did. Guards at Helgen would have seen the carts pass and Tullius simply sent a soldier up the road to turn the carts back to Helgen in order to complete the execution of Ulfric right away and put an end to the rebellion. Having Ulfric in a cell or traveling to Cyrodiil is too risky as a rescue attempt could be made. Tullius just wants to get it over with as soon as possible.

 

As for the other prisoners, including Lokir and the PC, Tullius has no interest in justice or trials or sorting out who is who, his only focus is to just eliminate Ulfric and anyone with him so he (Tullius) can get on with more important issues.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Tidus44

[Nilanius]

 

My theory goes like this:

• PC Crossed a border, was caught with Lokir and the stormcloaks and knocked unconcious
• Standing orders for Tullius was that if he ever captured Ulfric alive, he's to take him to Cyrodiil for a trial
• They probably passed Helgen to head for the fort before proceeding to the border
• chances are, the thalmor met Tullius at the fort and gave him the idea of rather than a trial, which could potentially free Ulfric, why not frame the stormcloaks?
• So Tullius orders the wagons to not stop at the fort but to proceed a little further down the road then turn to head back to Helgen
• queue the opening sequence

So if the dragon had not shown up, Tullius could of quietly executed the stormcloaks and Ulfric, then so he could justify defying standing orders, orders his men to destroy the town so they can blame it on the stormcloaks. But dragon showed up, and we got the story we got.

 

The reason I suspect this conspiracy theory is what I have seen in regards to Tullius himself:

• First He is clearly chatting it up with the Thalmor when you enter Helgen
• The quest to rescue Thorald from Northwatch Keep, the missive to the Battle-born is by Tullius saying he knows the Thalmor have him, and it should just be quietly swept under the rug
• I entered Dour Castle and listened in on the entire back and forth between him and Rikke, and it is clear he has no respect for the Nords of Skyrim, and isn't above doing underhanded stuff to get what he wants done, to happen.

Hence how I pieced together why they were taken to Helgen, instead of being taken before the emperor. It also explains the captain's insistence that regardless of being on the list or not, the PC is to goto the block. If they weren't up to something fishy, then why send an innocence to the block? Also consider, every single stormcloak soldier was on their list, and the horse thief Lokir. The dragonborn is, as far as I could tell, the only one that has committed no crimes and is to be killed regardless. The only reason an innocence would be executed with war prisoners, is if the witnesses wont be alive after that to tell their tale.

 

After all, this is Skyrim. Where if you don't kill that bunny that witnessed you murdering that traveling mercenary, that bunny tells the hold you committed the murder in, and you get a bounty.

 

Not an entirely unbelievable theory; and while I don't specifically agree with the reasoning, there is the fact the opening sequence has the carts arriving at Helgen from the south road; not from the the east road, which does make one wonder how that came about.

 

I can't think of any reason why Tullius would have had any order for a trial or an execution of Ulfric in Cyrodiil as a show of the Empires power or authority. The rebellion isn't seen as anything other than a minor nuisance that Tullius has to deal with in order to get on with other more important issues. Tullius does refer to it as a "little rebellion" and there are strong indications in the game that he would much rather be focusing on dealing with the Thalmor problem than Ulfric. The only importance he assigns to the "little rebellion" is that it has taken critical resources away from the Empire and needs to be dealt with quickly.

 

If anything, I could believe that prisoners may have been taken to Fort Neugrad as a matter of routine, and that Tullius on learning Ulfric had been captured, went to Helgen arriving at about the same time the carts did. Guards at Helgen would have seen the carts pass and Tullius simply sent a soldier up the road to turn the carts back to Helgen in order to complete the execution of Ulfric right away and put an end to the rebellion. Having Ulfric in a cell or traveling to Cyrodiil is too risky as a rescue attempt could be made. Tullius just wants to get it over with as soon as possible.

 

As for the other prisoners, including Lokir and the PC, Tullius has no interest in justice or trials or sorting out who is who, his only focus is to just eliminate Ulfric and anyone with him so he (Tullius) can get on with more important issues.

 

 

Well thing is though, If Tullius really wanted to focus on other things then it was he, who actually started the civil war. Here's some info I gathered in game that pretty much proves Tullius is the problem:

• Ulfric showed up at Solitude. No one suspected he was going to make the challenge to the High King.
• Elisif's own Thanes even say, Skyrim law dictates if the challenge is made to the High King, the High King must accept it, or be branded a coward and a new moot called to replace them. If the challenge is made to a Jarl, and that Jarl declines, they'd be branded a coward and removed from being a Jarl, and replaced by someone chosen by the citizenry of the hold.
• The same Thanes, also said, if they had known Ulfric was going to make that challenge, they would of denied him entrance to make the challenge.
• When Ulfric made the challenge, the High King of course accepted. The challenge when made is always to the death, and use whatever weapons at your disposal, including shouts.
• Only the Empire is saying Ulfric shouted him apart. But people who actually witnessed the fight described it more like Unrelenting Force. He knocked the high king down and stabbed him with his sword.

So in this case, the challenge was lawful. But Tullius is the one who decided to brand Ulfric a murderer because the empire's puppet was killed in a lawful duel. So if Tullius was truly all "We need to focus on the Thalmor threat", then he should of let skyrim handle skyrim's business, then make his plea to the new high king to take the fight to the thalmor.

 

Also I got creative, and using the googlemap version of Skyrim I drew out the route that they would had to of taken to get to the intro cart ride:

 

http://i.imgur.com/5Tor94Q.png

 

So from that route, it would appear they were originally taking them to Cyrodiil, but then made a u-turn under Tullius' orders. That right there, is fishy, considering everyone involved, thought they were being taken to Cyrodiil for a trial. And notice also, they pass very close to an imperial camp on the way to Helgen just before the alchemist's hut. If they were going to forgo the trial, and go straight to the execution, then they could of took them there.

 

But they didn't, and instead u-turned to Helgen. It makes no sense making a big show out of executing men who were over halfway to Cyrodiil for a trial, unless there was something fishy going on.

[Elimc]

 

 

My theory goes like this:

• PC Crossed a border, was caught with Lokir and the stormcloaks and knocked unconcious
• Standing orders for Tullius was that if he ever captured Ulfric alive, he's to take him to Cyrodiil for a trial
• They probably passed Helgen to head for the fort before proceeding to the border
• chances are, the thalmor met Tullius at the fort and gave him the idea of rather than a trial, which could potentially free Ulfric, why not frame the stormcloaks?
• So Tullius orders the wagons to not stop at the fort but to proceed a little further down the road then turn to head back to Helgen
• queue the opening sequence

So if the dragon had not shown up, Tullius could of quietly executed the stormcloaks and Ulfric, then so he could justify defying standing orders, orders his men to destroy the town so they can blame it on the stormcloaks. But dragon showed up, and we got the story we got.

 

The reason I suspect this conspiracy theory is what I have seen in regards to Tullius himself:

• First He is clearly chatting it up with the Thalmor when you enter Helgen
• The quest to rescue Thorald from Northwatch Keep, the missive to the Battle-born is by Tullius saying he knows the Thalmor have him, and it should just be quietly swept under the rug
• I entered Dour Castle and listened in on the entire back and forth between him and Rikke, and it is clear he has no respect for the Nords of Skyrim, and isn't above doing underhanded stuff to get what he wants done, to happen.

Hence how I pieced together why they were taken to Helgen, instead of being taken before the emperor. It also explains the captain's insistence that regardless of being on the list or not, the PC is to goto the block. If they weren't up to something fishy, then why send an innocence to the block? Also consider, every single stormcloak soldier was on their list, and the horse thief Lokir. The dragonborn is, as far as I could tell, the only one that has committed no crimes and is to be killed regardless. The only reason an innocence would be executed with war prisoners, is if the witnesses wont be alive after that to tell their tale.

 

After all, this is Skyrim. Where if you don't kill that bunny that witnessed you murdering that traveling mercenary, that bunny tells the hold you committed the murder in, and you get a bounty.

 

Not an entirely unbelievable theory; and while I don't specifically agree with the reasoning, there is the fact the opening sequence has the carts arriving at Helgen from the south road; not from the the east road, which does make one wonder how that came about.

 

I can't think of any reason why Tullius would have had any order for a trial or an execution of Ulfric in Cyrodiil as a show of the Empires power or authority. The rebellion isn't seen as anything other than a minor nuisance that Tullius has to deal with in order to get on with other more important issues. Tullius does refer to it as a "little rebellion" and there are strong indications in the game that he would much rather be focusing on dealing with the Thalmor problem than Ulfric. The only importance he assigns to the "little rebellion" is that it has taken critical resources away from the Empire and needs to be dealt with quickly.

 

If anything, I could believe that prisoners may have been taken to Fort Neugrad as a matter of routine, and that Tullius on learning Ulfric had been captured, went to Helgen arriving at about the same time the carts did. Guards at Helgen would have seen the carts pass and Tullius simply sent a soldier up the road to turn the carts back to Helgen in order to complete the execution of Ulfric right away and put an end to the rebellion. Having Ulfric in a cell or traveling to Cyrodiil is too risky as a rescue attempt could be made. Tullius just wants to get it over with as soon as possible.

 

As for the other prisoners, including Lokir and the PC, Tullius has no interest in justice or trials or sorting out who is who, his only focus is to just eliminate Ulfric and anyone with him so he (Tullius) can get on with more important issues.

 

 

Well thing is though, If Tullius really wanted to focus on other things then it was he, who actually started the civil war. Here's some info I gathered in game that pretty much proves Tullius is the problem:

• Ulfric showed up at Solitude. No one suspected he was going to make the challenge to the High King.
• Elisif's own Thanes even say, Skyrim law dictates if the challenge is made to the High King, the High King must accept it, or be branded a coward and a new moot called to replace them. If the challenge is made to a Jarl, and that Jarl declines, they'd be branded a coward and removed from being a Jarl, and replaced by someone chosen by the citizenry of the hold.
• The same Thanes, also said, if they had known Ulfric was going to make that challenge, they would have denied him entrance to make the challenge.
• When Ulfric made the challenge, the High King of course accepted. The challenge when made is always to the death, and use whatever weapons at your disposal, including shouts.
• Only the Empire is saying Ulfric shouted him apart. But people who actually witnessed the fight described it more like Unrelenting Force. He knocked the high king down and stabbed him with his sword.

So in this case, the challenge was lawful. But Tullius is the one who decided to brand Ulfric a murderer because the empire's puppet was killed in a lawful duel. So if Tullius was truly all "We need to focus on the Thalmor threat", then he should of let skyrim handle skyrim's business, then make his plea to the new high king to take the fight to the thalmor.

 

 

Yes, Tullius may or may not be more focused on the Thalmor than on Ulfric, but the Thalmor do not want Ulfric killed.

Tullius probably just decided to not risk letting any prisoners escape and ordered his men to execute them at the next town. But the Thalmor would have been against him doing this, although they wouldn't want to give away their motives by asking Tullius to release Ulfric, they would have tried to stop the execution. Also, Tullius had no reason to keep the execution secret. Sure, he was disobeying orders by not letting Ulfric have a trial, but he had a valid concern about Ulfric escaping. In fact, he probably had Ulfric executed in Helgen just to make sure people saw him die.

[kimmera]

 

 

Well thing is though, If Tullius really wanted to focus on other things then it was he, who actually started the civil war. Here's some info I gathered in game that pretty much proves Tullius is the problem:

• Ulfric showed up at Solitude. No one suspected he was going to make the challenge to the High King.
• Elisif's own Thanes even say, Skyrim law dictates if the challenge is made to the High King, the High King must accept it, or be branded a coward and a new moot called to replace them. If the challenge is made to a Jarl, and that Jarl declines, they'd be branded a coward and removed from being a Jarl, and replaced by someone chosen by the citizenry of the hold.
• The same Thanes, also said, if they had known Ulfric was going to make that challenge, they would have denied him entrance to make the challenge.
• When Ulfric made the challenge, the High King of course accepted. The challenge when made is always to the death, and use whatever weapons at your disposal, including shouts.
• Only the Empire is saying Ulfric shouted him apart. But people who actually witnessed the fight described it more like Unrelenting Force. He knocked the high king down and stabbed him with his sword.

So in this case, the challenge was lawful. But Tullius is the one who decided to brand Ulfric a murderer because the empire's puppet was killed in a lawful duel. So if Tullius was truly all "We need to focus on the Thalmor threat", then he should of let skyrim handle skyrim's business, then make his plea to the new high king to take the fight to the thalmor.

 

Also I got creative, and using the googlemap version of Skyrim I drew out the route that they would had to of taken to get to the intro cart ride:

 

 

 

So from that route, it would appear they were originally taking them to Cyrodiil, but then made a u-turn under Tullius' orders. That right there, is fishy, considering everyone involved, thought they were being taken to Cyrodiil for a trial. And notice also, they pass very close to an imperial camp on the way to Helgen just before the alchemist's hut. If they were going to forgo the trial, and go straight to the execution, then they could of took them there.

 

But they didn't, and instead u-turned to Helgen. It makes no sense making a big show out of executing men who were over halfway to Cyrodiil for a trial, unless there was something fishy going on.

 

 

The question is whether all proper protocols for a duel were actually followed. A duel is not normally 'I challenge you! *stab stab stabbity stab* Yay! I win, I am a great duelist!. Normally, the two have a chance to arm, and start at a pre-determined distance. If it was just "I challenge you..... (attacks)" then it arguably was an assassination hiding behind dueling rules.

 

Besides, as I recall, the winner isn't automatically made high king. All that happens is a new moot in which a new high king is chosen. The winner often is named but there is no actual law saying they become the new High King. If it was that easy, the Dragonborn could resolve it by challenging Ulfric, even if they had to challenge their way into the leadership of one of the holds first.

 

Taking Ulfric to Cyrodiil for execution would have been idiotic and more likely would have just martyred him. They needed to execute him in Skyrim, with local witnesses. Otherwise there would be people assuming he wasn't really dead and others angry that he wasn't dealt with locally.

[Tidus44]

 

Well thing is though, If Tullius really wanted to focus on other things then it was he, who actually started the civil war. Here's some info I gathered in game that pretty much proves Tullius is the problem:

• Ulfric showed up at Solitude. No one suspected he was going to make the challenge to the High King.
• Elisif's own Thanes even say, Skyrim law dictates if the challenge is made to the High King, the High King must accept it, or be branded a coward and a new moot called to replace them. If the challenge is made to a Jarl, and that Jarl declines, they'd be branded a coward and removed from being a Jarl, and replaced by someone chosen by the citizenry of the hold.
• The same Thanes, also said, if they had known Ulfric was going to make that challenge, they would have denied him entrance to make the challenge.
• When Ulfric made the challenge, the High King of course accepted. The challenge when made is always to the death, and use whatever weapons at your disposal, including shouts.
• Only the Empire is saying Ulfric shouted him apart. But people who actually witnessed the fight described it more like Unrelenting Force. He knocked the high king down and stabbed him with his sword.

So in this case, the challenge was lawful. But Tullius is the one who decided to brand Ulfric a murderer because the empire's puppet was killed in a lawful duel. So if Tullius was truly all "We need to focus on the Thalmor threat", then he should of let skyrim handle skyrim's business, then make his plea to the new high king to take the fight to the thalmor.

 

Also I got creative, and using the googlemap version of Skyrim I drew out the route that they would had to of taken to get to the intro cart ride:

 

So from that route, it would appear they were originally taking them to Cyrodiil, but then made a u-turn under Tullius' orders. That right there, is fishy, considering everyone involved, thought they were being taken to Cyrodiil for a trial. And notice also, they pass very close to an imperial camp on the way to Helgen just before the alchemist's hut. If they were going to forgo the trial, and go straight to the execution, then they could of took them there.

 

But they didn't, and instead u-turned to Helgen. It makes no sense making a big show out of executing men who were over halfway to Cyrodiil for a trial, unless there was something fishy going on.

 

There is no evidence that Tullius started the civil war; and much that says it was started by Ulfric.

It is known that Ulfric captured Markarth in putting down the Forsworn that led to the Markarth Incident. The Empire promised Ulfric free worship of Talos in exchange for him releasing Markarth to the Empire. The Thalmor then pressured the Empire to crack down on Talos worship (which the Empire did) and this betrayal was key to Ulfric beginning his rebellion.

 

There is no means to determine if the Ulfric/Torygg incident was fair/unfair or lawful/unlawful under accepted Nord traditions. Either side of this can be argued because there is no information on what the rules are other than the High King can be challenged and he must accept or be replaced.

However, Ulfric fled the city after killing the High King – he was aided by the gate keeper who was executed for allowing Ulfric to get away. There is something obviously amiss because there would be no question of the fairness/lawfulness of the challenge by anyone and no need to “escape” from Solitude if everything had been as per the rules of Nordic tradition. It is obvious the challenge has been questionable and there is controversy attached to it. What it is specifically can only be conjectured based upon one’s opinions as there are no facts to support any of it.

 

Tullius has no interest and doesn’t care about Nord traditions. He is there only to put down Ulfric and his rebellion. Tullius even says that Ulfric is a distraction from more important things (like the Thalmor). During Diplomatic Immunity he says, "Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true." and “Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks." If you are a Stormcloak, on executing Tullius he says, "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

As for the killing of Torygg, sure Tullius is somewhat upset, but not because of Nordic tradition, but because it caused him problems. Tullius says at Helgen: "You (Ulfric) started this war, plunged Skyrim into chaos, and now the Empire is going to put you down, and restore the peace.".

 

Transporting Ulfric and all the prisoners to Cyrodiil for trial and execution makes no sense. Ulfric is the leader and if Tullius was to send anyone to Cyrodiil for the Empire to execute and send a message, it would have been Ulfric and only Ulfric; not a horse thief and a bunch of meaningless soldiers and some guy who wandered into the ambush. Fort Neugrad is also on that same road and is also an Empire prison so it is just as easy to suggest that the Fort was the destination or that the opening sequence has the prisoners coming from the Fort. The initial view in the game is after Fort Neugrad but before Helgen.

 

No one in any cart suggests they are going to Cyrodiil so I have no idea where that comes from.

Lokir asks, “Where are they taking us?” on finding out Ulfric is in the cart. Rolaf then says, “I don’t know where we are going, but Sovngarde awaits.”. Tullius is also leading the carts as when the gate to Helgen is approached, the guard says, “General Tullius, sir. The headsman is waiting.”. Tullius then says, “Good, let’s get this over with.”

Obviously, Tullius is with the carts because Ulfric is there and as military governor Tullius wants to see him executed but doesn’t place much gravity to the situation when saying “Let’s get this over with” as if it were just another interruption to an otherwise busy man with better things to do.

 

I don't see any conspiracy or evil from the Empire in executing Ulfric as soon as they can after capturing him. He's just a pain and one they need to get rid of so they can move on to more important things.

[Relativelybest]

 

The question is whether all proper protocols for a duel were actually followed. A duel is not normally 'I challenge you! *stab stab stabbity stab* Yay! I win, I am a great duelist!. Normally, the two have a chance to arm, and start at a pre-determined distance. If it was just "I challenge you..... (attacks)" then it arguably was an assassination hiding behind dueling rules.

 

 

To be absolutely fair, this is pretty much exactly how duels are carried out in the game.

 

Mage: I challenge you to a wizard duel!

Dragonborn: Um, I'm not really a...

Mage: FIREBALL!