Where did the Dragonborn cross the border into Skyrim?

[kimmera]

I didn't say he had a week, I said he might have had half an hour or so. There is no reason to believe that Ulfric challenged Torygg, shouted at him, and killed him all within a minute.

 

No reason to believe it? They say nothing about any preparation. Find anything that even hints at preparation. This particular tangent (which probably should be carried on in the more relevant thread rather than here) pointed out earlier that no one else in Skyrim seems to allow preparation for duels....

[Tidus44]

It is evident that Torygg did have time to prepare and wasn't just attacked by Ulfric. In speaking to various Jarls, mages and even Torygg himself, Torygg did "face" Ulfric, a word that suggests he was prepared on some level to fight a duel.

The legality of the challenge or how it was done does not appear to be in question, which further suggests Ulfric didn't just enter the court, issue a challenge and then shout the King down and stab him with his sword. The issues seem to be that Ulfric had not used sufficient diplomatic means to try and convince Torygg to leave the Empire, Torygg was young and inexperienced whereas Ulfric was a seasoned veteran so the duel was "unfair" and lastly that Ulfric used a shout.

While Ulfric is not the sharpest person in Skyrim, he is a traditionalist who would follow Nord customs to the letter. Obviously, such a challenge would be somewhat honorable in its process and not just a surprise attack.

[kimmera]

It is evident that Torygg did have time to prepare and wasn't just attacked by Ulfric. In speaking to various Jarls, mages and even Torygg himself, Torygg did "face" Ulfric, a word that suggests he was prepared on some level to fight a duel.

The legality of the challenge or how it was done does not appear to be in question, which further suggests Ulfric didn't just enter the court, issue a challenge and then shout the King down and stab him with his sword. The issues seem to be that Ulfric had not used sufficient diplomatic means to try and convince Torygg to leave the Empire, Torygg was young and inexperienced whereas Ulfric was a seasoned veteran so the duel was "unfair" and lastly that Ulfric used a shout.

While Ulfric is not the sharpest person in Skyrim, he is a traditionalist who would follow Nord customs to the letter. Obviously, such a challenge would be somewhat honorable in its process and not just a surprise attack.

 

Following to the letter and following to the spirit are not the same thing. "Face" only means he wasn't stabbed in the back. That isn't the same thing as having a chance to consider strategy, or even to grab a better weapon than whatever he was carrying at the time.

 

It wasn't just a surprise attack but that doesn't mean it was a formal duel either. There is a lot of room in between those two.

[Tidus44]

 

It is evident that Torygg did have time to prepare and wasn't just attacked by Ulfric. In speaking to various Jarls, mages and even Torygg himself, Torygg did "face" Ulfric, a word that suggests he was prepared on some level to fight a duel.

The legality of the challenge or how it was done does not appear to be in question, which further suggests Ulfric didn't just enter the court, issue a challenge and then shout the King down and stab him with his sword. The issues seem to be that Ulfric had not used sufficient diplomatic means to try and convince Torygg to leave the Empire, Torygg was young and inexperienced whereas Ulfric was a seasoned veteran so the duel was "unfair" and lastly that Ulfric used a shout.

While Ulfric is not the sharpest person in Skyrim, he is a traditionalist who would follow Nord customs to the letter. Obviously, such a challenge would be somewhat honorable in its process and not just a surprise attack.

 

Following to the letter and following to the spirit are not the same thing. "Face" only means he wasn't stabbed in the back. That isn't the same thing as having a chance to consider strategy, or even to grab a better weapon than whatever he was carrying at the time.

 

It wasn't just a surprise attack but that doesn't mean it was a formal duel either. There is a lot of room in between those two.

 

 

So you're saying Ulfric ambushed Torygg and murdered him. Just walked up and made his challenge and then immediately shouted to knock him down and stabbed him. If you say so, it must be true.

[kimmera]

 

 

It is evident that Torygg did have time to prepare and wasn't just attacked by Ulfric. In speaking to various Jarls, mages and even Torygg himself, Torygg did "face" Ulfric, a word that suggests he was prepared on some level to fight a duel.

The legality of the challenge or how it was done does not appear to be in question, which further suggests Ulfric didn't just enter the court, issue a challenge and then shout the King down and stab him with his sword. The issues seem to be that Ulfric had not used sufficient diplomatic means to try and convince Torygg to leave the Empire, Torygg was young and inexperienced whereas Ulfric was a seasoned veteran so the duel was "unfair" and lastly that Ulfric used a shout.

While Ulfric is not the sharpest person in Skyrim, he is a traditionalist who would follow Nord customs to the letter. Obviously, such a challenge would be somewhat honorable in its process and not just a surprise attack.

 

Following to the letter and following to the spirit are not the same thing. "Face" only means he wasn't stabbed in the back. That isn't the same thing as having a chance to consider strategy, or even to grab a better weapon than whatever he was carrying at the time.

 

It wasn't just a surprise attack but that doesn't mean it was a formal duel either. There is a lot of room in between those two.

 

 

So you're saying Ulfric ambushed Torygg and murdered him. Just walked up and made his challenge and then immediately shouted to knock him down and stabbed him. If you say so, it must be true.

 

 

And if you say otherwise, I must be false? I am saying Ulfric gave Torygg just enough time to say "I accept" and to (maybe) draw whatever weapon he had with him. Torygg did accept, we know that. As I said there is a lot of room between a surprise attack and a formal duel.

[Tidus44]

 

 

 

It is evident that Torygg did have time to prepare and wasn't just attacked by Ulfric. In speaking to various Jarls, mages and even Torygg himself, Torygg did "face" Ulfric, a word that suggests he was prepared on some level to fight a duel.

The legality of the challenge or how it was done does not appear to be in question, which further suggests Ulfric didn't just enter the court, issue a challenge and then shout the King down and stab him with his sword. The issues seem to be that Ulfric had not used sufficient diplomatic means to try and convince Torygg to leave the Empire, Torygg was young and inexperienced whereas Ulfric was a seasoned veteran so the duel was "unfair" and lastly that Ulfric used a shout.

While Ulfric is not the sharpest person in Skyrim, he is a traditionalist who would follow Nord customs to the letter. Obviously, such a challenge would be somewhat honorable in its process and not just a surprise attack.

 

Following to the letter and following to the spirit are not the same thing. "Face" only means he wasn't stabbed in the back. That isn't the same thing as having a chance to consider strategy, or even to grab a better weapon than whatever he was carrying at the time.

 

It wasn't just a surprise attack but that doesn't mean it was a formal duel either. There is a lot of room in between those two.

 

 

So you're saying Ulfric ambushed Torygg and murdered him. Just walked up and made his challenge and then immediately shouted to knock him down and stabbed him. If you say so, it must be true.

 

 

And if you say otherwise, I must be false? I am saying Ulfric gave Torygg just enough time to say "I accept" and to (maybe) draw whatever weapon he had with him. Torygg did accept, we know that. As I said there is a lot of room between a surprise attack and a formal duel.

 

 

So what you're saying now is Ulfric gave Torygg time to face him with a weapon in his hand and Ulfric didn't ambush him and didn't murder him?

 

This is rather confusing as I am not sure what it is you are saying happened. Either Ulfric ambushed and murdered the King or he didn't. You can't have it both ways.

 

Since there is absolutely no information on what constitutes a challenge in Skyrim, suggesting that a "formal duel" (whatever that is in your imagination) was required is simply unsubstantiated speculation. Its meaningless. What, if anything, in the game suggests a "formal duel" was required? What are the rules? How is it conducted? Where is the information in the game that states a formal duel was required?

It obviously wasn't a surprise attack as everyone who talks of it knows it was a challenge and Torygg himself says he "faced" Ulfric but was beaten without any suggestion Ulfric did anything wrong.

 

Its a simple question, did Ulfric simply walk up and murder the King with no warning or did he issue a challenge, allow the King to face him armed and then kill him by using his ability to shout and superior fighting skills?

[kimmera]

 

 

 

So what you're saying now is Ulfric gave Torygg time to face him with a weapon in his hand and Ulfric didn't ambush him and didn't murder him?

 

This is rather confusing as I am not sure what it is you are saying happened. Either Ulfric ambushed and murdered the King or he didn't. You can't have it both ways.

 

Since there is absolutely no information on what constitutes a challenge in Skyrim, suggesting that a "formal duel" (whatever that is in your imagination) was required is simply unsubstantiated speculation. Its meaningless. What, if anything, in the game suggests a "formal duel" was required? What are the rules? How is it conducted? Where is the information in the game that states a formal duel was required?

It obviously wasn't a surprise attack as everyone who talks of it knows it was a challenge and Torygg himself says he "faced" Ulfric but was beaten without any suggestion Ulfric did anything wrong.

 

Its a simple question, did Ulfric simply walk up and murder the King with no warning or did he issue a challenge, allow the King to face him armed and then kill him by using his ability to shout and superior fighting skills?

 

 

I never said a formal duel was required under Skyrim law. What is honourable and what follows the letter of the law are often not the same thing. However, Ulfric felt the need to flee the city for some reason. If his actions were obviously legal, shouldn't he have been able to defend himself?

 

Also reports of the duel vary from "He shouted Torygg to death" to "He shouted at Torygg knocking him off balance, then one shotted Torygg with his sword." Based on game mechanics, either Torygg had to be *really* low hit points, or Torygg had to be not just off balance, but hit with a sneak attack while off balance . If that is what happened, that also could have been considered dishonourable in a duel. Come to think of it, if Ulfric was hidden from bystanders at the time of such an attack too, it might have seemed to them as if Torygg had simply been shouted to death.

[Tidus44]

I still don't see what "honourable" or what the "letter of the law" has to do with anything when there is no information about what the law is or what is considered honourable in challenging a King. Your stating, "What is honourable and what follows the letter of the law are often not the same thing." is meaningless unless you can state for a fact what is considered "honourable" and the "letter of the law" in Skyrim regarding a challenge to the King. For all anyone knows the challenge was perfectly honourable and to the letter of the law. The only controversy seems to be individual opinion about what Ulfric should have done.

 

Obviously, something was going on as Ulfric found it necessary to escape from Solitude.

However, suggesting it had to do solely with his challenge is unsubstantiated and imaginative speculation. Ulfric is the leader of a rebellion in the capital city full of Imperial troops and where a General who was sent to Skyrim to put down and execute the leader of the rebellion is located; could this not also be a situation that may possibly have had something to do with Ulfric finding it necessary to escape from the city? Additionally, there are those who do state that something was not entirely proper in what Ulfric did in the challenge, but do not specifically state what it was. The only indications are that Ulfric should have used diplomatic means rather than a challenge to convince the King to separate from the Empire and that Ulfric was a seasoned veteran and the King was not, but no one says the challenge was unlawful or that Ulfric did something wrong during the challenge. At best one can say people are upset because Ulfric killed the King who had no hope of besting him.

I have said previously that there are no facts to support any reasoning and thus any conclusion is simply opinion based on an individual's prejudices.

 

The game mechanics have nothing to do with the storyline. Torygg could have had the highest stats in the universe and Ulfric would still have beaten him because the storyline requires it. As for speculating what Ulfric did or did not do during the challenge is meaningless and only opinion because there is no means to determine the facts.

 

Which brings me to the point that the discussion is not about honour or law, game mechanics or whatever red herring one wants to pull out of their imagination, it is whether or not Ulfric assassinated (ie: murdered) the King or did Torygg accept the challenge, face Ulfric with a weapon and get defeated. Pretty simple question.

[Nilanius]

There was no ambush. And as another person said, Ulfric is a traditionalist. He follows tradition and law to the letter. So Torygg did have time to prepare, and obviously, it didn't happen right there in the throne room. It is most likely they went out to the courtyard, one opponent on one end, the other on the other. And as they converged to meet blades, Ulfric shouted him down, then stabbed him, to win the duel.

 

Either way, it was a lawful challenge, the nord rules of challenge were followed to the letter. It was the non-nords who started proclaiming murder. Non-nords being the imperials. And when he won the challenge, he didn't run for the gate. From what I gathered, he walked to the gate, the guard on duty opened it and he "Walked" out, as one npc described it. Because Roggvir was executed because the "Wrong man walked out that gate".

 

So I still maintain, that Tullius was breaking all kinds of laws, just to try to keep Skyrim in the fold. He needed Torygg or his wife on the high king throne. And there were 2 contenders for it. Her, or Ulfric, who was disgusted with the Empire as are most nords. So what better way to ensure Ulfric didn't become high king, than to proclaim him a murderer and start a bloody civil war. Tullius's priorities, isn't to build up to fight the dominion. He's too in bed with them. His only objective, was to ensure the Empire stayed intact.

[kimmera]

You seem to be forgetting Torygg, who claims Ulfric acted dishonourably.

 

As for Roggvir, how would he know if Ulfric beat Torygg in fair combat or not? Did he teleport from the throne room to the city gate? Was he following Ulfric the whole time and for some reason the gate was completely unguarded so there was no one else there when he let Ulfric out of the city? Even if Ulfric did walk (I can't seem to find that reference you are talking about. Who said it exactly?), it still begs the question why Ulfric felt the need to leave the city at all. He had just deprived Skyrim of its king, legally or not. Shouldn't he stick around to make sure there is a smooth transition and that all is well in the wake of the death?