Making an actual realitic weapon mod

Nolanoth · February 3, 2014

So far all of the weapon I have seen so far make every single very weapon in the game extremely unrealistic by boosting the recoil of the weapon and reducing controllability.

Please tell me. Where is all of the recoil? In real life?

Is it here:

Doesn't look like it.

Is it here:

Can't say I see it.

Why? That depends. On what you'd ask? Well...

1) The 5.45 and 5.56 rounds make the weapons extremely controllable.

2) When you are physically "fit" (and don't have some floppy arms) and you know how to grip the weapon:

http://www.usacarry.com/proper-grip-guidelines-techniques-recoil-control/

you'll know how to handle it without putting too much force in to pulling it down.

3) Recoil reducing mechanism like the the added muzzle brakes, compensator's and hybrids:

http://www.recoilweb.com/preview-flash-suppressors-muzzle-brakes-compensators-tip-barrel-5927.html

Those give around 45% reduction in recoil. Some of these mechanism became so good that even a 7.62 doesn't seem to be much of a problem these days:

So you could say I had enough of this surrealism nonsense where each gun must go "WAGAAAAAAAA LOOK AT ME I'M GOING OUT OF CONTROL JUST LIKE THE REAL THING! UP UP TO THE SKYYYYYY! YEAH REALISM!!!!!".

I don't know what's going on in the head of those people, but let's make one thing clear - it's not real. Especially when you replace a compensator with a silencer and expect the weapon to have "less damage". How is this magical damage drop happening? There is no damage drop with a suppressor. What is this BF3/4 crap? Whet a silencer does - is that it (usually) replaces the suppressor. The gun gets more accurate, has like 1% more damage due to the barrel extension, but the added added weight and lack of recoil reduction make the weapon roughly 50% less controllable.

No one even bothered to give all the weapons proper or more proper names. Like the AK47... that's not an AK47! That's a AK-74 which uses the 5.45 Soviet/Russian ammo. A really accurate rifle which is superior to the AR15.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZO11glbkr4

Similar accuracy, completely different reliability.

-------------------------------------------

Now I've already started editing the:

"oasisstrings" file.

It's the one holding all of the descriptions.

I'm also doing some work on the:

"entitylibrary" file.

My questions are:

1) Where are the stats responsible for weapon range/bullet range?

2) Where are the stats responsible for added weapon upgrades like suppressor, scopes and all sights upgrades?

3) How to properly adjust weapon controllability?

I have no idea what the hell is this:

fRecoilRecoveryTime

fRecoilAchieveTime

fRecoilAnimationWeight

fRecoilMaxPitch

fRecoilMaxYaw

And how the sway works or cover or fRange (I guess that's range right? But how much is it in game like if I gave it 450... 450 feet? meters?), vectorEffectiveRange, vectorEffectiveRangeIS. It's a mystery to me just like the adding of attachments and their effects on performance.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Nolanoth

SunnyDelight · February 3, 2014

I see what you mean but I suppose it all depends on how you are holding the gun. I always wanted a mod that adds REALISTIC gun sway to the game. Instead of having a ''static'' model that swoops across the screen something like battlefield 3 where it drags and drops when you move. (Makes the gun actually look as if it's real and weighs something) I don't know if you can do that just by editing the standard code or if you would have to put new script in but yeah that would be awesome.

Other than that with recoil I see what you mean as well.

Nolanoth · February 3, 2014

Great I messed up the title again huh? Any chance a moderator could fix that?

As far as the gun holding goes - leaning in and proper gripping.

I'm not sure what you mean with the weapon sway itself. Yes weight does affect weapon sway. By pressing the rifle's stock to your shoulder you essentially remove most of the sway from side to side (horizontal), but it's still tiering to hold the weapon up all the times (vertical).

Anyway I have no idea - since I just don't remember how weapons behaved in BF3 and I have no idea if/how that could be implemented. Most peaces of this code are simply hard to understand.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Nolanoth

SunnyDelight · February 3, 2014

Hmmm and you should be able to edit the post.

Well i know there is mods which change the weapon holding effects in first and third person but it can be annoying. I wis I could help you more but I don't really know how to add loads of stuff like this.

FlankerDFR · February 3, 2014

I agree with you on the in game (both vanilla and "most" of the mods) recoil issue. Weapon recoil is a combination of weapon type, weight, design, cartridge/caliber, bullet weight, powder charge, shooter skill level, stance, physical and MENTAL condition ........................and some other stuff.

Someone like our character (Jason); mid twenties and in excellent physical condition would be more than physically able to handle the assault rifles (the MI16/M1A is NOT an assault rifle despite being put into that category). It's a battle rifle as it fires a full power 30 caliber round). Despite being physically ready to "rock the guns"; unless Jason had someone schooling him in proper shooting/movement/tactical technique....................it's hard saying how good he'd be at handling the recoil, let alone how accurate he'd be in combat.

You're correct about suppressors also. They decrease recoil (more weight out on the muzzle end, though they might add a little to muzzle sway for the same reason), and DO NOT reduce cartridge performance. The exception being the weapon operator using subsonic ammo.

I'm using one primary mod compendium from this site, with elements of two others; I've rolled into the primary. Based on 30 + years of security work and all the weapon stuff that went with it (that's me in my avatar, carrying one of the 249s I was issued on a project in Afghanistan), I've adjust the recoil on a number of the game weapons. In the end though; I've "guesstimated" recoil to reflect my own experience.

From your comments on editing game files, I assume you know how to, and are using one of the Dunia 2 gibbed tools editors? And, you've already unpacked the patch.dat and patch.fat files, created a patch file, and know about tweaking individual file entries and putting it all back together?

In any event...................I adjusted recoil by going to: C://Program Files x86/Ubisoft/FarCry3/data_win32/patch/worlds/fc3_main/generated/entitylibrary/weaponproperties/FC3/whatever weapon I want to edit with notepad.

I hit control F, and search for: recoil

Find the line: "fVerticalRecoilPerShot" then adjust the recoil number up or down (smaller number = less recoil).

You'll notice left and right recoil numerical values in the two lines immediately above the vertical recoil value............................I've left mine alone, but obviously they can be tweaked too.

Range values are in the same file.

Hit control F, and search for: CommonProperties

Then look for these two lines:

vectorEffectiveRange" type="Vector2">1,200</field>
vectorEffectiveRangeIS" type="Vector2">200,500</field>

These two lines are from my AK47 weapon property file. The number 1 is the beginning range in meters (100% power), the 200 in both lines is the range in meters I've "guessed" the bullet has dropped off to 50% power, and the 500 cut off range where I've "guessed" the bullet has dropped off to 10% power.

Then hit control F again, and search for: RangeMultipliers

There are four sets of parameters for these. Each set corresponds to one of the four game difficulty levels. As I only play on the hardest difficulty setting I modded the fourth set of RangeMultiplier parameters and left the first three set alone. The set I modded is: Range MultiplierInfamous

Which ever set/s you mod; look for these lines:

As you can see there are 3 sets of the same parameters, I've left the first set alone, and modded tht second two sets to conform to the range and bullet power factors I cited above for the two lines in CommonProperties. I'm not sure I've done this correctly as looking at the three sets of parameters right now; it seems it would have made more sense to have set range and power factor values for all three sets of parameters. I'm self taught and based my original two parameter set range/power mods on a post by Inarkin (or someone else who knew what they were doing) on page 162 in the FC3 Ubisoft forum. That info may have been bumped back to who knows what page by now....................think I'll look at it again tomorrow, then I may have to readjust all my range and power factor mods! &^(($$^!!!! LOL!

Hope this is what you were asking, and this helps as I'm not much of a modder. Good luck!

Oh yea..................you asked about scopes, sights, 'n *hit.

That's in: C://Program Files x86/Ubisoft/FarCry3/data_win32/patch/worlds/fc3_main/generated/entitylibrary/gadgets/FC3/whatever gadget/weapon category I want to edit.

Nolanoth · February 4, 2014

Personally I see Jason as this kind of warrior prodigy from a far away land. He quickly turns in to a war machine as if killing was as easy as breathing and since he is special in some kind of way he becomes a natural predator. Doesn't matter if he's using a gun or a knife, he will always master the art with little training. Like some of those artist who never went to school, but still managed to be some of the best the world has ever seen.

If it wouldn't be too much of a problem could I have your patch files? You seem to have a lot of combat experience. Although I'm not sure if you shot an AK-74 before. I remember some of the old ballistic tests I've seen. I even managed to dig up the vid on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWmwS29-tBc

The 5.45 is nasty! In terms of damage to the human body and penetration it's superior to a standard 5.56.

The biggest difference I've seen so far is that the AR-15 series have all kind of fancy stocks which help absorb a lot of recoil, but how much exactly?

The other would be the rate of fire. The AK round does more damage and deforms in such a way it could go threw your stomach and come out in the area of your upper spine, but the rate of fire is quite slower. Around 650 and you don't get a fancy stock to help you control the rifle.

As far as I can tell the AK416C

http://www.popularairsoft.com/files/images/hk416c.jpg

is an upgraded, much more reliable version of the AR-15. Yet the ingame version has a nice stock:

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130907102711/farcry/images/thumb/4/42/FC3_cutout_rifle_p416.png/250px-FC3_cutout_rifle_p416.png

Just like some of that custom stuff you can get:

http://www.themakogroup.com/product_p/gl-shock.htm

My problem - what is the average recoil reduction of that stock? And what would be the recoil reduction of the muzzle brake? Not just on that particular weapon, but on everything we have in the game.

As far as I know the Russian one - on the AK would give 45% - 47%. The German... eh... 50%? But the stocks confuse me. Some offer even up to 85% felt recoil reduction. Could be bs, but they do look like they could take about 70%.. maybe even 80% recoil off your hands.

I'm simply trying to be as accurate as I can for this and keep the info for future games. I'm also using a recoil energy calculator:

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

To help me do some quick math.

-------------------------------------------------

Anyway yes I'm using Dunia 2. I have everything extracted and I'm messing with all of the files.

Like I said earlier the AK-47 is actually the AK-74. Generally the Russians thought the M-16 was a good idea, but poorly executed. So they made a better, newer version of the AK. They tweaked the accuracy significantly as well as the stock and comfort of holding the weapon, then made a new round for it, which as you seen... it's pretty crazy. Then 5.45's range will be a little bit worse, but it got quite a devastating effect on any living thing that gets in it's way. It easily deforms while still having a lot of penetration. Plus the muzzle device is really good:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/chris-dumm/ak-muzzle-device-test-part-1-recoil-reduction/

Those are tests on the AK-47, but you can imagine just how comfortable would it feel if it shot a smaller round.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the rifles nowadays are virtually nearly recoilless.

Also another important thing - sway from side to side (horizontal) and how would you rate the up and down sway (vertical). Like let's say:

Vertical sway is 1.0 by default - then what kind of horizontal sway would you most likely experience (while standing)? Somewhere around 0.4?

-------------------------------------------------

I'm extremely tired at the moment so forgive me for any typo's or something I might have not answered. I'm not much of a modder either, but I have no idea what:

fMinRange is for... minimum range? How is that even supposed to work?

fMaxRange that's Max range including bullet drop or just a straight line bullet range? Because the maximum range of any bullet shot from a good assault rifle is impressive. A bullet can go as far as 700 meters or more. Yes. Somewhere around 200m you'll experience a significant drop, but up to 300m with good weather, no/almost no wind you can even shoot a guy in the head - as long as you have a good scope. And what is the measurement used for max range? Also meters?

vectorEffectiveRange" type="Vector2">1,200</field> This is... 1 power? 200 rage? I don't get it why is there a separate range stat then?

vectorEffectiveRangeIS" type="Vector2">200,500</field> Wouldn't this mean the bullet power went up from being 1.0 or 1 to 200x the damage amount at a range of 500 meters? I'm... confused to say the least.

fStartMultiplier Ehhhhhhhhh :S ?

fEndMultiplier ...? Maybe it's referring to speed? Actually where is the bullet speed?

Here's a Russian chart in meters that shows the drop for the 7.62x39 (red), 5.45 (blue) and 5.56 (yellow).

http://cdn.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachments/f19/46048d1337297647-time-blow-away-most-rampant-ak-myth-762x39vs545x39vs223.gif

Surprising trajectory...

Maybe we can work together on this and work out something truly accurate?

Edited February 4, 2014 by Nolanoth

FlankerDFR · February 5, 2014

Hey! One thing many do not know about military assault rifle caliber cartridges...............they all tumble and create really nasty wounds. It's basic bullet design; long cone shaped projectile that travels with the pointy end first..................most of the weight is in the base though. If you just threw the bullet (obviously no stabilizing spin imparted to it) it would travel heavy end first..............not the light/pointy end. Anyway, all FMJ rifle rounds tend to travel 12-14 inches in soft tissue; they destabilize, then key hole briefly, and travel base/heavy end forward. Assuming they haven't hit any gear, armor equipment, etc on the target, or hit a bone (very common!) traveling though the target. Some bullets are more unstable than others; depending on bullet weight, shape, bullet weight bias, rate of spin, and some other stuff................in the end; they all keyhole then flip. Hitting bones can cause fragmentation, bending, or other effects before, after, or during the tumble/flip. They'll do the same when fired from an MG too. Pistol bullets don't do it though; they're shorter, thicker, and aren't traveling fast enough'

I can't give you any of my files; I tried contacting my main mod compendium author to no avail......................and have no permission to mod their work and redistribute it. I won't risk getting in trouble here at the Nexus as it's a cool site and modding and redistributing without permission is a big no no, and I've seen someone get banned from the site (Fallout New Vegas) for doing it.

I've never shot an AK74 variant; I've shot dozens of AK47 variants and found all easy to shoot (mild recoil). The Afghani project I was on involved distributing AKs, PKMs, RPKs, RPGs, and S & W MP pistols to Afghan security forces. Got to shoot all of them at one time or another. I was issued PKMs at two different locations as our groups fire support weapon. Long, heavy, dead nuts reliable, fun to shoot (damn thing feeds from the right and ejects left--not very good for right eye dominant shooters like me!). Full auto in an assault rifle caliber was/is intended for multiple targets at close range (inside 25m); contrary to TV, movies, and games......aimed semi auto is the way to go, unless you've got multiple bad guys at close range. How much in game recoil for a given rifles is the correct amount............is hard to say, I based any adjustments on my recollection of my experiences (shooting at known distance at a range), and the only two rifles I adjusted recoil for were the AK and MI16/M1A (the game AK is an AK47 BTW-----magazine shape and color type it as a 47....the muzzle brake is patterned after the AK74 MB-----increasingly common on AK47 variants as it does work well). I wouldn't worry too much about how much an particular accessory reduces recoil...........if you think the weapon is kicking too much.....................dial that number down in the command line I showed you above.

I converted the AK and MP5 from full to semi auto. They worked perfect except for there was NO SOUND???? Couldn't ever figure that out, and converted them back to full auto.......................they work/sound fine now. (&%^*&^!!!!!

Here's how I modded weapon ballistics. I read a post by one of the real modders over at Ubisoft Forums on how to use the Dunia 2 tool. The post listed the vanilla damage value on the .45 auto pistol as 50.

If you don't already know it..........game weapon damages are listed as: BaseDamage in the: .............entitylibrary/WeaponProperties/FC3 file: line: <field name="fLevel" type="Float32">182</field>

Lest you think I'm beating up on poor helpless enemy NPCs........................I adjusted all NPC weapons to the same values as mine. I adjusted all the range properties for each weapon as noted above based on my knowledge/experience with of each weapon. I changed my R700 to 300 Winchester Magnum ballistics, the Z93 to .338 Lapua Magnum, and the Z93 AMR to the 50 BMG Raufauss APHEI ballistics. Take my word for it..........................I'm very wary of enemy DSHKA gun trucks now.........................LOL! Death incarnate!!!!

If you get bored playing around with the stock weapon calibers here are some more options:

FYI: The following weapons will convert in real life to the following calibers: MP5 to .40 S & W and .357 SIG

P416 to 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendal (don't forget to adjust mag capacities and recoil accordingly)

KSVs to 400 Cor Bon

Hunter revolvers to .454 Casull (adjust recoil UP! and capacity down to 5 rounds)

I looked up all the game weapon cartridges on Wikipedia. If the 230 grain 45 ACP ball round (standard US military 45 round) delivered 352 ft/lbs of muzzle energy and = a damage value of 50.........it was easy enough to convert all the other cartridges/weapons accordingly (sticking to mil standard loadings whenever possible, and being cognizant of Wikipedia test barrel lengths vs in game weapon barrel lengths as barrel length would affect muzzle energy/damage values) as percentages above or below the 352 ft/lb=50 damage figure. I also modded the piercing values of the enemy NPCs in the: entitylibrary/FC3_NPC/Merc file to correspond to the more powerful weapons. I made them less pierceable to bullets.......there are separate factors for heads, torsos, and limbs. I made my changes based on the apparent level of armor of enemy NPC types. The piercing values are in the: <object name="CFCXCountersComponentAI"> parameters in the lines:

After playing the game for quite a while....................it was apparent I was dropping enemies way too easily, even after increasing their piercing resistance (decreasing the numerical values). So, I stepped the .45 auto pistol back to a base damage of 40 (a 20% reduction from 50) and dropped all other BaseDamages by 20% except the Z93 and Z93 AMR.

I'll check back in in a day or so, in case you've got any other questions. This forum is pretty dead as of late; I've got several questions of my own I'd like to run by one of the real modders.

Good luck, hope some of this helped!

Nolanoth · February 6, 2014

Hey Flanker. Sorry I haven't had a chance to write you sooner, but I've done some calculations and adjustments to the guns.

Would you be able to tell me how they feel if I gave you the stats?

Just set the P416 to:

And tell me how it feels. I based it on the HK416 stats from http://world.guns.ru/ and included the mag weight which is around 1+ pound fully loaded.

I've also included recoil reducing mechanisms - the muzzle device - around 30% recoil reduction and the recoil absorbing stock - 65% less recoil.

Should make it as controllable as the real thing, if not then tell me what do I need to work on.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Nolanoth

FlankerDFR · February 6, 2014

I’ve professionally used M4s twice, both had iron sights and A2 style bird cage flash suppressors. One was a semi/3^rd burst config, and the other was semi/FA. Both were easy to shoot, and I qualified with them multiple times. I never shot either on burst/FA at more than 25m, and had no difficulty printing 3-5 rd bursts on a human silhouette target at 25m. Neither one recoiled in semi or FA as hard as any of the AK47 variants I’ve shot (never shot a qualification course with one though); all of which I thought were easily controlled in semi and FA when used as intended (no FA beyond 25m). I have not adjusted sway numbers for any of the weapons, and I’m sure (not certain) I didn’t adjust the recoil numbers for the 416/M4, so the numbers below should be what the main mod I’m using came with.

With the recoil numbers you’ve used for your 416/M4; mercs and pirates will flee screaming in terror from you! LOL! No wait………………………….they’ll be dead and unable to flee!

In the end, modeling in game weapon ballistics, handling, etc on their real world counterparts is subjective guesstimation by all of us. As long as you used the same information source (such as world.guns.ru---excellent site; I routinely refer to them), and modeling system to mod your weapons…………you’re on pretty firm ground in my book!

I’ve never seen a published M4 cyclic rate that was not between 700-900 RPM. The FA M4 I carried certainly buzzed them off! I’ve got my in game 416 and Bushman set at 840----if I could make my real world weapons cycle like I want……………………they’d all be around 600 RPM as it’s a heck of a lot easier to tap off singles and doubles on FA at that rate.

Nolanoth · February 8, 2014

And I'm back!

There's a few more things I had to consider.

1) This is not your standard M4/AR-15 platform. The design suggests it's more like the HK416.

Real HK416 - http://www.diamanco.gr/Upload/2.5643x_web1.gif

AR-15 - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/AR15_A3_Tactical_Carbine_pic1.jpg

Game - http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130907102711/farcry/images/4/42/FC3_cutout_rifle_p416.png

Since it bears more similarities to the HK416 it would have different performance.

2) Muzzle device.

While the AR series uses the A2 flash suppressor/hybrid - it will have a lot less recoil reduction then an actual compensator or muzzle brake.

The ingame muzzle device suggest it's more of a muzzle brake/hybrid.

A standard A2 will provide around 26-31% recoil reduction... or at least that's what I see from this vid:

A better hybrid which is meant to be more of a muzzle brake will have up to 42-46% recoil reduction.

A top of the line muzzle brake will have up to even 54% recoil reduction.

3) Stock.

So far the AR series stocks didn't have a good recoil reduction, but the HK's do. They make expensive and effective toys.

A good stock can even reduce recoil up by 65-85%. Although I'd say 70% is the most you can get out of them thus far.

Of course this means mercenaries and pirates will have similar performance, but I'm thinking about giving them a 20% penalty to both recoil and sway.

There will also be damage differences like the AK-74 is going to deal more damage per shot (5.45 does more damage then a 5.56), but more recoil and less RPM's due to the design.

I was also thinking of adding 45 round magazine upgrades for some of the rifles, but as far as I can tell only the AK's have no problems with them. The AR's have some issues with those, so 40 would seem like the best choice.

Have you by any chance found some part of the code that could increase recoil and decrease spread once a shot is fired?

Any weapon has less recoil when it is fully loaded.

Heavy weapon = less recoil - but more sway

Light weapon = more recoil - but less sway

If I can get the weapon to behave differently once it starts running out of ammo the more realism you will get.

Otherwise I will have to subtract the weight of 15 rounds from the mag. Approximately 0.2126 lbs since that will be as close to realism as the game can get.

Would you also happen to know if it is possible to have an upgrade like an expanded mag decrease recoil and increase sway? I've seen something like this in Ziggy's mod, but it was for the silencer. It was terrible though, since it was unrealistic and decreased the damage instead of controllability.

Also the M4 doesn't have that much RPM, the HK does:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/de/hk-416-e.html

I think I posted this before along with 5.45 ballistic testing. I would also prefer a 600 RPM weapon myself, but that would leave no 5.56 caliber competition for the FAMAS. The AK (650 RPM) is better with damage delivered per shot, the SIG (700 RPM) is a combination of decent firepower and excellent controllability, the HK (900 RPM) is a devastating weapon which is still controllable, FAMAS (even up to 1100 RPM) is insane, but it will burn threw ammo really quickly and finally the ACE (650 RPM)... it's a battle rifle - completely different beast. I think that the M14 should be moved to the sniper category and given proper upgrades, but I don't know how to do it.

I've also made a small discovery.

The fRecoilRecoveryTime tells the gun how fast will it come back down after shooting a few rounds. Like - how fast will it recover from muzzle climb.

And fRecoilAchieveTime tells the weapon how fast does it climb up once a round is fired.

A question still remains how ever. Is:

representing time in minutes/seconds? Where 0.xxx <- xxx would be the fraction of a minute? Like 0.90 would be the 90% of a minute?

So if an AK shot at 650 RPM I'd have to calculate the muzzle climb time like this:

100 : 650 = 0.1538.....

Correct or am I wrong?

Edited February 8, 2014 by Nolanoth

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Making an actual realitic weapon mod

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