US flag 'offends' people inside the US.

[ripple]

I do know for a fact that what was done was a form of punishment. They were expelled from school. How is that not a form of punishment? It is not my "belief" that they were expelled because they displayed the same flag that is mounted on the flag pole outside of the school. It really did happen. No belief necessary.

 

I guess this is yet another example of your keen ability to read and absorb information. Where did you find the source that stated the students were "expelled from school"? They were sent home for the day. It wasn't even registered as a 'suspension', let alone 'expulsion.' They were not expelled from the school. In fact, some of them have since graduated from that school.

Edited February 7, 2014 by ripple

[kvnchrist]

 

sorry I misread the original topic. I was under the asumption that this was officials that simply didn't want to deal with the flag.

 

The only offense I take is with the cowardice of those who are put in places of responsibility who are more afraid of loosing that position than the people they serve. These are the people who make these ludicrous decisions.

I don't necessarily think it was a ludicrous decision, when it comes to protecting their students from "preventable" violence on school grounds.

 

If you think students in schools shouldn't have their constitutional rights restricted, maybe high school students across the nation should even be able to carry fire arms into school since the 2nd amendment protects them of this right... unless you begin to realize this would probably cause more violence in schools.....

 

The school did what was in their right to limit what people wear on Cinco de Mayo day, despite how one might think it being unpatriotic.

[TRoaches]

I guess this is yet another example of your keen ability to read and absorb information. Where did you find the source that stated the students were "expelled from school"? They were sent home for the day. It wasn't even registered as a 'suspension', let alone 'expulsion.' They were not expelled from the school. In fact, some of them have since graduated from that school.

Ugh, fine they were not expelled. They were, however, suspended. Being sent home from school against your will for disciplinary reasons is a suspension, regardless of what it was "registered" as (whatever that means).

 

I hope you feel better now, but my use of the wrong term (expelled vs suspended) really doesn't validate anything substantive that you have said, or invalidate anything substantive that I have said.

 

The school did what was in their right to limit what people wear on Cinco de Mayo day, despite how one might think it being unpatriotic.

If the school had a problem with a gang of gay bashers attacking students who display an LGBT rainbow flag, and the school's response was to ban any expression of support for LGBT rights such as rainbow flags, would you support that decision? If a student stood firm and refused to remove a rainbow flag from their apparel would you support their suspension? I can only guess that you would, based on your support of flag bans in general, but please correct me if I'm wrong and explain why they are different.

Edited February 7, 2014 by TRoaches

[ripple]

 

I guess this is yet another example of your keen ability to read and absorb information. Where did you find the source that stated the students were "expelled from school"? They were sent home for the day. It wasn't even registered as a 'suspension', let alone 'expulsion.' They were not expelled from the school. In fact, some of them have since graduated from that school.

Ugh, fine they were not expelled. They were, however, suspended. Being sent home from school against your will for disciplinary reasons is a suspension, regardless of what it was "registered" as (whatever that means).

 

I hope you feel better now, but my use of the wrong term (expelled vs suspended) really doesn't validate anything substantive that you have said, or invalidate anything substantive that I have said.

 

No, they were not suspended either. 'Suspensions' and 'expulsions' are both formal disciplinary actions, meaning they permanently mark a student's academic records, and will show up on their transcripts when they submit their transcripts as part of their applications to whatever. Suspension isn't getting 'sent home for the day', but more like 'you don't need to come to school for the next few days.' In their case, they apparently went home in order to avoid being suspended (thus, they were not suspended).

 

Source

 

Also, I don't feel 'better' or 'worse.' I mere correct misinformation and criticize fabrications based on a political agenda. I don't have some vested in interest in making anyone 'look bad' on the internet....

Edited February 7, 2014 by ripple

[TRoaches]

@ripple: So they weren't suspended.....they were "kicked off campus", according to your source. Yes, I can see now what a HUGE difference that is. That said, "kicked off campus" still sounds very punitive to me.

 

Student A: Hey Student B! Where have you been? Did you get suspended?

Student B: Don't be silly! I was simply kicked off campus against my will by the school administration. I was definitely NOT suspended, though......

 

What "political agenda" do you think I have regarding this topic?

 

Also, how do you feel about the idea that I proposed of banning symbols of LGBT rights in order to protect LGBT students from agitated bashers? Would that be appropriate, and would it send the right message to both the victims of the bashing and the bashers?

Edited February 7, 2014 by TRoaches

[colourwheel]

 

Also, how do you feel about the idea that I proposed of banning symbols of LGBT rights in order to protect LGBT students from agitated bashers?

 

You can "propose" anything all you want TRoaches but hardly see why one would actually propose something like this when you seem to be one who is so outraged by a school restricting what someone can wear just for one single day of the year.....

 

To be honest I think most LGBT t-shirts look dreadful but this doesn't mean I don't support LGBT rights... I for one wouldn't wear a cheap rainbow t-shirt normally day to day unless I was just sitting at home in my underwear doing laundry and it was the only thing clean I had left to wear... :laugh: Other than at some LGBT rights rally, most people I know who are gay or lesbian don't normally decide to wear a cheap t-shirt with a rainbow on it for the sole purpose to invoke violence when they go out in public.....

 

One thing I find ironic is this thread was originally started about how there was so many stories about the American flag being ban because of people being "offended" by it, when there is really only "one" story about banning U.S. flag T-shirts and only for Cinco de Mayo day at some high school in California. A story which a school decided to ban U.S. flag t-shirts for "only" one day and not "specifically" because people were actually being "offended" by the U.S. flag but because a few students decided to stir up trouble wearing flag T-shirts even after being warned before hand by the school administration in preventing the likelihood of invoking violence on school grounds on Cinco de Mayo day.

 

There is also no town or township that has proposed laws to ban the U.S. Flag "specifically" because it "offends" people. All laws in townships are not exclusive to just the American flag being flown and most of the ordinances in towns dealing with restricting flags in general being flown are due to safety reasons. Which no ordnance I have found that specifically bans the U.S. Flag because it "offends" people.

 

I guess a genuine question could be asked why the outrage about some high school that decided to ban U.S. flag t-shirts for one specific day? It is not as if this really personally effects anyone other than students that attend this school, which if I am not mistaken have limited rights to begin with the moment they set foot on school grounds. It would seem more like people are really just offended by a school deciding to ban American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo day and not really having anything to do with anyone "actually" being "offended" by the American Flag.

 

Are people really upset by just this one incident that was a pretty rational decision made by the school administration? I mean seems this high school has a bigger issue to worry about than just three students who consciously chose to try to invoke gang violence on Cinco de Mayo day at this high school. After reading this entire thread over again, maybe the real issue is about cultural intolerance in America.

Edited February 7, 2014 by colourwheel

[ripple]

@ripple: So they weren't suspended.....they were "kicked off campus", according to your source. Yes, I can see now what a HUGE difference that is. That said, "kicked off campus" still sounds very punitive to me.

 

Student A: Hey Student B! Where have you been? Did you get suspended?

Student B: Don't be silly! I was simply kicked off campus against my will by the school administration. I was definitely NOT suspended, though......

 

What "political agenda" do you think I have regarding this topic?

 

Also, how do you feel about the idea that I proposed of banning symbols of LGBT rights in order to protect LGBT students from agitated bashers? Would that be appropriate, and would it send the right message to both the victims of the bashing and the bashers?

1) Yes, there is a "HUGE difference." Suspensions and expulsions are permanently registered on the student's academic records. It shows up on the transcript--you know that thing which records the student's cumulative grades, that institutions of higher learning require as part of their admission process. 'Getting kicked off campus' could just be being told by the janitor to not to loiter on school grounds at the end of the day. It's even less of a 'punishment' than detention.

 

In this case, they apparently voluntarily choose to leave the school, rather than face suspension, and rather than turn over their shirts or hand over their bandanas. They had choices, and they made them. The smartest choice would have been to not deliberately attempt to troll for reactions and force the school administrators to act to begin with, given what happened the previous year.

 

2) I already told you, I am not interested in indulging in your off-topic imaginary scenarios since I am not interested in derailing this thread.

 

3) You keep thinking this is about the US national flag--it's not really about the US national flag. It's about some stupid kids doing things with malicious intent that could have serious ramifications. If instead of wearing those flag shirts, they had ran down the school hallway yelling racist remarks about Mexicans in order to agitate some of their fellow students, they would have been 'punished' for that as well, and (not) strangely enough, the grounds for an attempt to legitimate such actions would be exactly the one they used in this 'case.'

 

They are not 'courageous', they did something stupid, and hid behind a flag when they did it. There is nothing 'patriotic' about what they did. 'Rah rah patriotism' are meaningless gestures.

Edited February 7, 2014 by ripple

[TRoaches]

You can "propose" anything all you want TRoaches but hardly see why one would actually propose something like this when you seem to be one who is so outraged by a school restricting what someone can wear just for one single day of the year.....

I wasn't advocating that such a thing happen. I was presenting it as an analogous situation, but one in which the censorship and capitulation to violence would not be tolerated due to political correctness. The point being that we have reached a point of such absurd adherence to political correctness that censorship is a fine thing, so long as it is not being applied to a "protected" group, such as LGBTs. If anyone were to suggest that a victim of gay bashing "should have known what was going to happen if they dressed/behaved that way", and that they should have "avoided antagonizing" their attackers then they would be labeled an intolerant bigot, and an apologist for the bashers.

 

 

I guess a genuine question could be asked why the outrage about some high school that decided to ban U.S. flag t-shirts for one specific day? It is not as if this really personally effects anyone other than students that attend this school, which if I am not mistaken have limited rights to begin with the moment they set foot on school grounds. It would seem more like people are really just offended by a school deciding to ban American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo day and not really having anything to do with anyone "actually" being "offended" by the American Flag.

 

The more relevant question: Why was the US flag censored at a US school? Why is it considered antagonistic to wear a US flag in the US? This is the aspect of this that nobody has given any explanation for. I have only heard justifications of the school's right to censor an image, but have heard NO justification for why that image would need to be censored. The closest that anyone has come is to simply say that it was "antagonistic" to wear that flag on that day. Why would the US flag ever be antagonistic to Americans?

 

The answer is that the people who were antagonized likely do not consider themselves to be Americans. They consider themselves to be Mexicans who are living in a region of North America that was, according to Mexican Nationalist ideology, is illegitimately claimed by the US but legitimately should be controlled by Mexico.

 

Cinco de Mayo is NOT a Mexican national holiday. The event is largely ignored in Mexico, with the exception of Puebla simply because the battle that the holiday celebrates took place there. It is a celebration of Mexican nationalism, practiced primarily by Mexican Americans. Mexican Nationalism is no different from any other nationalist movement: It is rooted in bigotry and beliefs of racial superiority. It is no different from the brand of nationalism that is practiced by white supremacists, but it is tolerated in our society because Hispanics are considered to be one of the aforementioned groups that is protected by political correctness. It is a backwards, tribal philosophy and it hinders human progress by emphasizing our cultural differences as a justification for ethnic isolation. As long as people view themselves primarily as Mexicans, or Americans, or whatever, there will be no further progress towards universal human rights. There will only be advancement of Hispanic rights, gay rights, and so on. The problem with compartmentalizing humans into groups, then granting them rights based on their inclusion in that group should be apparent when compared to the much more idealistic concept of universal human rights.

 

 

3) You keep thinking this is about the US national flag--it's not really about the US national flag. It's about some stupid kids doing things with malicious intent that could have serious ramifications. If instead of wearing those flag shirts, they had ran down the school hallway yelling racist remarks about Mexicans in order to agitate some of their fellow students, they would have been 'punished' for that as well, and (not) strangely enough, the grounds for an attempt to legitimate such actions would be exactly the one they used in this 'case.'

 

They are not 'courageous', they did something stupid, and hid behind a flag when they did it. There is nothing 'patriotic' about what they did. 'Rah rah patriotism' are meaningless gestures.

 

1. Why is display of the US flag "malicious"? The school no doubt had a flag pole flying the US flag, like every other school in the entire nation. Was the school being malicious? If not, what is the difference between the school displaying the flag a student displaying the flag? Why is one "malicious" and the other acceptable?

 

2. What is the connection between wearing a US flag and yelling racist remarks? Is the school itself being racist by displaying a US flag?

 

3. Nobody said they were courageous, or praised them in any way. Advocating for someone's right to do something is not the same as supporting what they are doing.

Edited February 7, 2014 by TRoaches

[Nintii]

How being a proud American in America is considered a crime is something beyond me.

 

I think that perhaps a more debatable issue concerning "Flag Banning" amongst Americans

would be the banning of the Confederate Flag ... currently part of the Mississippi State flag.

While some declare this to be a symbol of freedom from governmental oppression others

might have a more valid claim to it being racist.

Can you imagine if one of the Federal German States decided to include the swastika ?

Same thing.

[colourwheel]

 

 

 

Also, how do you feel about the idea that I proposed of banning symbols of LGBT rights in order to protect LGBT students from agitated bashers?

 

You can "propose" anything all you want TRoaches but hardly see why one would actually propose something like this when you seem to be one who is so outraged by a school restricting what someone can wear just for one single day of the year.....

 

I wasn't advocating that such a thing happen.

 

Seems like you were trying to offer a definitive proposal to me. Regardless if you were "trying" to present it as an analogous situation.

 

 

 

 

I guess a genuine question could be asked why the outrage about some high school that decided to ban U.S. flag t-shirts for one specific day? It is not as if this really personally effects anyone other than students that attend this school, which if I am not mistaken have limited rights to begin with the moment they set foot on school grounds. It would seem more like people are really just offended by a school deciding to ban American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo day and not really having anything to do with anyone "actually" being "offended" by the American Flag.

 

The more relevant question: Why was the US flag censored at a US school? Why is it considered antagonistic to wear a US flag in the US? This is the aspect of this that nobody has given any explanation for. I have only heard justifications of the school's right to censor an image, but have heard NO justification for why that image would need to be censored. The closest that anyone has come is to simply say that it was "antagonistic" to wear that flag on that day. Why would the US flag ever be antagonistic to Americans?

 

The answer is that the people who were antagonized likely do not consider themselves to be Americans. They consider themselves to be Mexicans who are living in a region of North America that was, according to Mexican Nationalist ideology, is illegitimately claimed by the US but legitimately should be controlled by Mexico.

 

No one knows all the facts about this case but the actual people involved. No one on this forum can give a full explanation about what really went on. You are throwing accusations about "why" and injecting them into this story as some sort of concluding "fact" when the only knowledge the reader has is that of what one can find from web searching and reading articles. Despite the reason why one thinks something was done and for what reason, their constitution grants public school children only limited First Amendment rights when they enter the schoolhouse gates. The school may restrict a student's speech, to prevent unruly disruptions. So the school was within its right to ban the shirts for just that single day.

 

Furthermore, the lower court tossed out the students' lawsuit in December 2011, ruling that school administrators have wide legal latitude to ensure the safety and effective operation of their campuses and a "perceived threat" of violence vindicated the principal's decision.

 

 

The school no doubt had a flag pole flying the US flag, like every other school in the entire nation.

 

If there was a U.S. National flag being flown on school grounds during Cinco de Mayo day, you have already totally debunked this "theory" that anyone was actually being specifically "offended" by the U.S. National Flag.

Edited February 7, 2014 by colourwheel