Why I Think The Empire Is Right

[ponyboy10]

Dang, I've avoided as much of the civil war storyline as possible so far, and just did the main quest. I didn't really love the Empire, and would have sided with the Stormcloaks if they didn't seem like such a big jumble of d-bags. Even still, I was starting to warm up to them, but after re-reading some of the points here, maybe I will join the Imperials after all. It still seems like the Thalmor's participation isn't highlighted enough though.

[Lachdonin]

 

5. A true warrior will fight and win regardless of what his opponent uses against him. A fair fight is something you do when you are at a play, not when the fate of an entire nation is in the balance.

 

 

 

Uuuh... Huh? That whole argument is based on the (totally false) assumption that Right makes Might. The idea that a 'true warrior' will win regardless is total rubbish, even in TES. Pelenial, Wulhearth, even Tiber Septim were all laid low by dirty tactics, and they were paragons of 'the warrior'. A Fair Fight is an honourable acceptance of limitations, and a respect for your opponent. Particularly for a people like the Nords, where honour is more important than any nation, Ulfric's lack of respect is a rather telling point in regards to his hypocrisy.

 

 

It still seems like the Thalmor's participation isn't highlighted enough though.

 

I think that's part of the point... What you find in the Embassy is supposed to be exceptionally rare insight into the Thalmor's agenda. Most of their own agents in Skyrim probably don't know WHY they are there. I tend to think it was made a little too obvious, actually... How the Thalmor won a covert war against the Blades boggles my mind when they leave important documents like that laying around.

[imperistan]

 

 

A Fair Fight is an honourable acceptance of limitations, and a respect for your opponent. Particularly for a people like the Nords, where honour is more important than any nation, Ulfric's lack of respect is a rather telling point in regards to his hypocrisy.

 

Duels of that nature aren't about being fair, as can be seen here:

 

Ulfric's ability with shouting isn't anything spectacular. If you're capable you can fight through it.

 

 

 

[Lachdonin]

Yes, you've used that as a source before. Too bad it's not TES, and too bad Nords aren't Vikings. And it also doesn't take into account that Ulfric's Thu'um WAS rather spectacular in the 4th Era, the art having almost completely died out, and that he had broken oaths to the Greybeards in order to use it in the manner he did.

 

The process of the honourable challenge, in Skyrim, dates back to at least King Harald, probably bad to Atmora, and is a tradition expressed during the Nordic assistance of the Alessian revolt. It was Morihaus' ability to keep to honour and not let his violence and need for victory consume him in madness which so endeared him to Pelenial

 

. Or how about Tsun's duel with the Dovahkiin? Tsun is a freaking Ada, and has the power to lay waste to entire contents. He bested Trinimac in single combat, and yet the Dragonborn can beat him? If an honourable duel was about using any means at your disposal, Tsun should have just swatted you like a fly.

 

No, the In-Universe information contradicts and real-world historical reference. It uses an exaggerated expression of honour and the 'warrior culture' and cannot be boiled down to such utilitarian real-world analogues.

[ponyboy10]

 

It still seems like the Thalmor's participation isn't highlighted enough though.

 

I think that's part of the point... What you find in the Embassy is supposed to be exceptionally rare insight into the Thalmor's agenda. Most of their own agents in Skyrim probably don't know WHY they are there. I tend to think it was made a little too obvious, actually... How the Thalmor won a covert war against the Blades boggles my mind when they leave important documents like that laying around.

 

Lol. Fair point.

I would have to agree with you too, but it can also be easy to miss, or not fully understand, the sinisterness (new word ftw) of the Thalmor. In general though, sometimes I wish they would delve into the lore more in-game, but then again that stuff can get boring if someone isn't really into it.... and there is A LOT of depth to Tamriel and the TES universe.

[imperistan]

Yes, you've used that as a source before. Too bad it's not TES, and too bad Nords aren't Vikings. And it also doesn't take into account that Ulfric's Thu'um WAS rather spectacular in the 4th Era, the art having almost completely died out, and that he had broken oaths to the Greybeards in order to use it in the manner he did.

 

The process of the honourable challenge, in Skyrim, dates back to at least King Harald, probably bad to Atmora, and is a tradition expressed during the Nordic assistance of the Alessian revolt. It was Morihaus' ability to keep to honour and not let his violence and need for victory consume him in madness which so endeared him to Pelenial

 

. Or how about Tsun's duel with the Dovahkiin? Tsun is a freaking Ada, and has the power to lay waste to entire contents. He bested Trinimac in single combat, and yet the Dragonborn can beat him? If an honourable duel was about using any means at your disposal, Tsun should have just swatted you like a fly.

 

No, the In-Universe information contradicts and real-world historical reference. It uses an exaggerated expression of honour and the 'warrior culture' and cannot be boiled down to such utilitarian real-world analogues.

 

Nords are directly based on Norsemen, and short of the religion differences it may as well be copy and paste. Right down to the distrust of magic. Ignoring what the Norse believed is ignoring what inspired the entire race.

 

Spectacular for the fact that he could use it yes. Spectacular for the power he could actually muster in battle? Nope. A common mage can do much worse.

 

I don't see Ulfric as someone who lost his mind

 

Just because you choose not to use your full power doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't. Torygg could have had his guards slay Ulfric where he stood, and no one would be the wiser.

The duel with Tsun was to test the Dragonborn's mettle in combat to prove his worth as a warrior (and thus be granted entrance into Sovngaard). He didn't utterly destroy you because that wasn't the point. Meanwhile with the duel between Ulfric and Torygg, that was precisely the point. Ulfric wanted to show that Torygg didn't deserve his position according to the traditions of the Nords (and mind you, thats why I use that video. That duel had the exact same point Ulfric's did) and he did that. That Torygg died in the process is irrelevant, because he was still defeated by a man of lesser stature and position than him. His death just proved that all the more.

 

The Norsemen were not known for subtlety and neither are the Nords.

[Lachdonin]

 

Nords are directly based on Norsemen, and short of the religion differences it may as well be copy and paste. Right down to the distrust of magic. Ignoring what the Norse believed is ignoring what inspired the entire race.

 

I don't see Ulfric as someone who lost his mind

 

 

So... When presented with in-universe information disputing your claims, you resort to "Nords are based on the Norse, so the same rules have to apply". And the evidence you present is from a movie which also does not adequately represent Norse customs. The conclusion of that Shield-Duel would have been dubbed in violation of the duel, and the patron of the vanquished would have been well within his rights to demand compensation for the loss of his minion. Because the little blond guy cheated. Failure to pay the demanded price typically caused inter-clan warfare, which is largely why killing your opponent in Norse duels was rare.

 

Claiming that you can take the beliefs of a real-world analogue and apply it carte-blanch to a fictional race INSPIRED by them is also inherently flawed. The Dunmer were inspired by the Chinese, and the Redguard the Arabs. These races have taken a few key thinking points and run with them, and are NOT their real-world inspirations. Ignoring what we are told about them In-Universe in favour of a (rather poorly depicted) cultural practice of their real-world inspiration is nonsense.

 

I am also not saying Ulfric has 'lost his mind'. I don't have a clue where you got that. Ulfric is very sane. He is also a power hungry hypocrite who is willing to twist and bend the traditions he claims to uphold in order to get his way.

 

 

 

Spectacular for the fact that he could use it yes. Spectacular for the power he could actually muster in battle? Nope. A common mage can do much worse.

 

No, spectacular for the fact that no one outside of the Greybeards knows how to do it. There is no one else, in all of Skyrim, who knows how to harness the Thu'um. In the years since the Pocket Guide to the Empire was published (early in the 3rd Era, so about 700 years) the Way of the Voice has totally subsumed the old traditions. The Grey Beards are the ONLY practitioners of the Thu'um left. Ulfric himself admits he learned from them. It's practically Dawn-Magic now, and what;s worse, the Greybeards aren't willing to just teach anyone. It's made very clear that the only reason you don't have to take the oaths to not use the Voice to meddle in mortal affairs is because you're Dragon-Jesus. By using it in a duel, Ulfric is breaking his oath to the closest thing the Nords have to saints. Oath Breaking is a big no-no in Nordic culture.

 

 

 

Just because you choose not to use your full power doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't. Torygg could have had his guards slay Ulfric where he stood, and no one would be the wiser.

 

And this... Are you even reading what you write? Torygg could have had his guards execute the Jarl of Windhelm, in full view of the Solitude Court, rather than accept a challenge? And no one would have noticed? You can't even get away with that shenanigans in Game of Thrones, and those people are all murderous bastards anyway. Torygg himself says that Honour demanded he accept. There was no other way out of it.

 

 

 

The duel with Tsun was to test the Dragonborn's mettle in combat to prove his worth as a warrior (and thus be granted entrance into Sovngaard). He didn't utterly destroy you because that wasn't the point.

 

And no, again, he is an Ada. He cannot die, least of all in the domain which fuels him (Sovengarde). You must prove yourself by beating him in battle, NOT by proving your mettle. You are also a mortal, trespassing where mortals do not belong. There is no reason for him to hold back, save for the terms of an honourable duel.

 

 

Ulfric wanted to show that Torygg didn't deserve his position according to the traditions of the Nords (and mind you, thats why I use that video. That duel had the exact same point Ulfric's did) and he did that. That Torygg died in the process is irrelevant, because he was still defeated by a man of lesser stature and position than him. His death just proved that all the more.

 

 

And finally, despite this being pointed out many, many times to you... The point of the duel was NOT to prove Torygg was unworthy of his station. It was to make a political statement by striking down the ruler of the seat of Imperial power in Skyrim. He made no call for a new Moot, he made no official challenge to Torygg's position as per the process laid down by King Harald.

 

His entire claim to be acting in accordance with 'Tradition' is false, because his actions violate at least 3 other traditions. He broke his oaths to the Greybeards, he violated the honourable duel which had existed since at least King Harald and may in fact date back to the Ehlnofex War, AND he totally ignored the rules of succession by not officially contesting Torygg's right to rule.

 

 

 

Frankly, i don't give a rats ass how much you want the Nords to follow Norse rules (which you seem to misunderstand anyway) when the in-universe information contradicts any historical comparison, the in-universe always wins.

[imperistan]

 

 

So... When presented with in-universe information disputing your claims, you resort to "Nords are based on the Norse, so the same rules have to apply". And the evidence you present is from a movie which also does not adequately represent Norse customs. The conclusion of that Shield-Duel would have been dubbed in violation of the duel, and the patron of the vanquished would have been well within his rights to demand compensation for the loss of his minion. Because the little blond guy cheated. Failure to pay the demanded price typically caused inter-clan warfare, which is largely why killing your opponent in Norse duels was rare.

 

Of all the inaccuracies of that movie, that duel is actually quite dead on. If you ever find the time to read some of the Norse Saga's, you'll find that duels (which happened a lot mind you. Simply insulting someone was just cause for one) had a lot of people using whatever they could to win, regardless of whether its some ancient power granted by the gods or a nice big rock you found on the road.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmgang

 

Only those in Iceland ever really practiced a form of dueling that didn't end in someone's death.

 

We can also look here: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/the_shape_of_viking_combat.htm

 

While that kind of combat is different from dueling, it does give you insight into the kind of mindset the Norse, and thus the Nords, would have, particularly when things like this common place. You have to remember that while Skyrim takes place in the home of the Nord's, we don't know <i>that</i> much about their culture, and especially not the culture of the Ancient Nords, which is what Ulfric was channeling in his challenge.

 

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The difference is that the Nords don't just take a little inspiration and then go and do their own thing. The Nords literally copy almost all of the hallmarks of the Norse people, just as the Imperials do with the Romans (to a lesser degree).

 

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You implied it with your relation of the story of Morihaus. If that wasn't the intent then fine, but even so. While I am no fan of Ulfric, I don't believe he was dishonorable in using the thuum against Torygg. Let's remember that most sources for what happened during the duel <i>greatly</i> exaggerate the power of his voice. Yes it might terrify those who have never seen it, but if we're trying to be objective about this situation, then we can't let that influence our opinions on it.

 

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Yes, but we also have to remember where he's coming from. He's calling for a return to ancient tradition. Ancient Nord's had no qualms using the voice in battle. It was only Windcaller that changed that idea (and that was thousands of years later) and even then. That was only because of his personal hubris. It isn't hard to make people follow your ways when your powerful enough to withstand the power of nearly all of your contemporaries at once.

 

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He's the High-King, surrounded by loyal subjects. He could have had Ulfric slain and then spread the story that he won the duel. Simple as that. It is impressive that he chose not to, but fact of the matter was that he had a lot of power over that situation.

 

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1. That's the same exact thing.

 

2. The entire point of the duel is to be a test. If the point of the duel was for someone to die, Tsun would not have stopped fighting.

[madcow12]

But after challenging Torygg, why flee? He had Roggvir open the gates for him and fled the city while the people were shocked he had Thuumed Torygg to pieces

[Kraeten]

But after challenging Torygg, why flee? He had Roggvir open the gates for him and fled the city while the people were shocked he had Thuumed Torygg to pieces

 

Why flee? Because he just defeated the city's ruler, and it would be incredibly reckless to expect Torygg's widow to respect Nord traditions under the rather tense circumstances. As for the killing itself, if you speak with Torygg in Sovengarde it's glaringly obvious he wasn't abruptly murdered as the poncy nobility of Solitude's Blue Palace would have you believe.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Kraeten