dubbad29 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 THERE IS PROOF THAT ULFRIC MURDERED THE HIGH KING. Just head up to Sovngarde and have a chat with Torygg in the flesh soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Regardless of the nature of the duel, it's clear that Ulfric and Torygg are enemies. Now, why wouldn't you lie to make your enemy look bad even if you're already dead? Is there a rule that ghosts can't lie? Edited July 1, 2014 by MidbossVyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doeetfgt Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 About the Empire being allied to the Thalmor, that's entirely false. Even Rikke, though she will not outright say it, is clearly disugsted and frustrated by the Thalmor's actions. The Empire is under the Thalmor's joug, yes, but it is clearly against their will and liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintii Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 @ MidbossVyers has anyone gone back to Sovngarde to see if Ulfric is there after you kill him ... just wondering howhe and Torygg get along in the afterlife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVampireDante Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 If you deal with the civil war before going to Sovngarde and you have "dealt" with Ulfric - then yes, he is in Sovngarde, wandering in the mists like the rest. You can talk with him like you can with the others, and it's worth a listen. He and Torygg don't actually talk to each other though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Regardless of the nature of the duel, it's clear that Ulfric and Torygg are enemies. Now, why wouldn't you lie to make your enemy look bad even if you're already dead? Is there a rule that ghosts can't lie?There is no rule that I am aware of, though to be honest I can't think of a single ghost which has lied I'm the entire universe, came, book or obscure texts. Still, particularly in this case, what would be gained? And deception would prevent Torygg's passage into Sovengarde anyway. But that's all largely irrelevant, because Torygg doesn't call it murder, or a violation, he mostly just laments that it came to a duel. The evidence that Ulfric cheated comes from other sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonflower995 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I also support the Empire because of these reasons, but I always hope that the Empire will strike back at those Thalmor asshole. Long live Empire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcat221 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 the reason I joined the stormcloaks(yesterday) is that I hate the Thalmor, I really hate them. But you have a good point there with the note, I didn't realize it. Anyway if I can kill Thalmor I am happy ;P Well, the Empire hates the Thalmor as well. Right now, I'm playing an Imperial female character and she kills the Thalmor whenever she can. She waits for them to accuse her of heresy, then it is so on! lol. :smile:The Thalmor currently have a death warrant out for her too. Hmm... I wonder why? lol Well, I did help Saadia with her ruse against the Redguards. The Thalmor didn't like that. Hehe. Psst. Saadia lied to you. The Dominion was kicked out of Hammerfell. If anything, she'd be exonerated. So why is she running? And the Thalmor hit squad has no trigger other than passing a level threshold. A ball-drop by the devs if you ask me... As for the "honor duel"... If Ulfric had cut down Torygg with steel, the claim that it's an "honor duel" would remain dubious. If Ulfric resorted to the Thu'um in the event that Torygg got the upper hand, then again, there could be question. But he didn't. He blasted Torygg right out, and then ran him through. He violated the highest tenet of the Way of The Voice: "Speak Only In True Need". The claim that it was an honor duel became patently false the moment Ulfric started bellowing the Shout. And then that's not all, Ulfric has the gall to claim that Torygg being unable to resist the Thu'um is proof that Torygg didn't have the strength to rule. Who in Oblivion can resist a face-full of Unrelenting Force? No, it proves that Ulfric is willing to profane and abuse power to get what he wants. Ulfric follows the tradition of naked nords... in that his ambition is naked. Even Tullius knows a profaning of the Thu'um when he sees one, as his declaration of Ulfric's crimes during the Helgen scene shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) No, Ulfric didn't use the Voice to win the duel. He could have done so without it. The use of the Voice was a message to the other Jarls. Also, Ulfric didn't expect Torygg to "resist" the Voice. Ulfric said that any Nord with dedication and ambition can master the Voice. For example, in a fight, you wouldn't complain if you lost because the enemy's fist was stronger, right? Then what about his vocal chords? Also, define "True Needs". The stone tablets at the Throat of the World said that dragons only Speak for True Needs. Only. In other words, when a dragon is incinerating or freezing a village, he is doing so for True Needs because dragons only Speak for True Needs, or are you saying that dragons have better justification for killing innocent civilians than Ulfric has for killing political enemies? Not to mention the fact that a dragon's Shout is usually lethal, while Ulfric only knows Unrelenting Force, which is usually nonlethal. Also, nationalism and rebellion are bad things? The Restless League would disagree: Edited February 20, 2016 by MidbossVyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcat221 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 No, Ulfric didn't use the Voice to win the duel. He could have done so without it. The use of the Voice was a message to the other Jarls. Also, Ulfric didn't expect Torygg to "resist" the Voice. Ulfric said that any Nord with dedication and ambition can master the Voice. For example, in a fight, you wouldn't complain if you lost because the enemy's fist was stronger, right? Then what about his vocal chords? Also, define "True Needs". The stone tablets at the Throat of the World said that dragons only Speak for True Needs. Only. In other words, when a dragon is incinerating or freezing a village, he is doing so for True Needs because dragons only Speak for True Needs, or are you saying that dragons have better justification for killing innocent civilians than Ulfric has for killing political enemies? Not to mention the fact that a dragon's Shout is usually lethal, while Ulfric only knows Unrelenting Force, which is usually nonlethal. Also, nationalism and rebellion are bad things? The Restless League would disagree: Did you even read the stone tablets or listen to the Graybeards? Dragons speak the Thu'um naturally; it is as natural to them as breathing. Mortals do not; only after long years of introspection can a mortal use the Thu'um proficiently. Jurgen Windcaller established the Way of The Voice after he attributed the nords' profanities with the Thu'um to their catastrophic defeat at the Battle of Red Mountain, and then won in a Thu'um fight with all the other Tongues with silence. Ulfric Stormcloak is not a Dragon or even a Dragonborn. He learned the Thu'um from the Graybeards, who undoubtedly (tried to) teach him the tenets of the Way of The Voice. The Graybeards have no expectation for a dragon to adhere to the Way of The Voice, including dragons bound to mortal coils. Ulfric does not fit in any such category. If Torygg was as weak as Ulfric claims, he would not truly need to kill Torygg outright using the Thu'um. Murders the king with the Thu'um and then immediately lays claim to the throne. Sounds like he is abusing the thu'um for his own glory instead of in worship of the gods. Even Tullius knows a profaner of the Thu'um when he sees one. And Rebellion at a time when there's a looming threat against all races that aren't golden-skintoned and really tall that was instigated by said looming threat is a bad thing, yes. The Empire may have to deal with playing nice with the Thalmor, but the Stormcloaks are the Thalmor's marionettes, and they don't even realize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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