Full list of skills

[PurpleXVI]

Marxist: That's a point on the blade front, but how possible are stealth kills in Oblivion, anyway? I remember in Morrowind I never did any more damage when sneaking, so there wasn't any way to stealthily take out people with one blow or anything. I haven't completely read up on this subject, I'll admit, but unless they really change the stealth mechanics so you get a "backstab bonus" or something, then there's no reason at all to even be armed while sneaking. Or at least not with a small weapon, since if you're forced into battle, all of the alarms are likely to be sounded.

 

But really, I'll have to check up on how much they've changed the whole stealth bit since Morrowind. Or maybe you can tell me, since I'm a lazy male without a father.

 

On the stats, though, I still disagree. If you play any sort of rogue who uses his little dagger or whatever with frequency, you should still be able to become relatively skilled with your weapon. If the levelling up is anything at all like Morrowind, you can also still boost your strength, just not as rapidly.

 

What's so bad about having to join the warriors to learn how to fight, anyway? Besides, I'm pretty sure that's wrong. I'm 100% sure that both the Thieves and the Dark Brotherhood will train you in blades of some kind, while the Mages will probably have a blunt trainer somewhere.

 

And seriously, ARE we down to just Blunt, Blades and Marksmanship as our only weapons skills now? Or am I forgetting something?

 

Bates: I will agree with you on the issue that maybe some sort of weapon class is appropriate for such weapons, Blunt is a completely wrong designation. Even so, I'm pretty sure there's a huge difference between fighting with a mace and fighting with an axe. What sort of weak points you should be aiming for, how you counter armor, how you can best block and defend. There are some similarities, but just not enough, in my opinion.

 

A better designation would be: Slashing, Stabbing, Ranged and Breaking weapons. There'd be more similarities between each class of weapon than there is currently, of course, even so there'd still be troubles. I mean, some weapons would fit into more than one class. You can both stab and slash with a sword, for example. I really just think their old weapon classes were a better idea.

 

On staves, I think you could probably give a staff some sort of staff head or weight near the end to focus it's impact damage, that'd fit it into the class.

 

Agreed with you on the Imperial Legion. Maybe they could've asked you when you joined, "Want to join the scouts, the footsoldiers or the knights?" Or something, too lazy to make up better names for it, and depending on that you'd get a different "line" of either Light, Medium or Heavy armor.

 

But I argue that the Medium Armor makes sense. I mean, not everything is either Light or Heavy. You need a gray zone. Leather armor is clearly light, platemail is clearly heavy, but what about chainmail? I'd say that's a "gray zone" material. And each would be used in their own way. With light armor you'd still be mostly dodging and blocking, but using your armor to shield you from blows that still hit you. With heavy armor you're counting on the armor to keep you safe, possibly even using your bracers to shield yourself. With medium armor you've got some blows you can turn, some you have to dodge, others you can easily take, etc.

 

I say it's a valid class. I mean, you could even use it for composite armor sorts of things. Maybe you've got a plate chest, but chain pauldrons and greaves, so your torso is protected but your limbs still mobile. That could sort-of be a medium armor style of thing.

[Marxist ßastard]

I remember in Morrowind I never did any more damage when sneaking...

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Critical hits in Morrowind deal much more damage, and can only be achieved when you are undetected by an NPC.

 

...If you're forced into battle, all of the alarms are likely to be sounded.

 

The skill bonus for Sneak has been listed as "make successful attacks."

 

They've changed the whole stealth bit since Morrowind.

 

Now at least both armor and lit torches affect sneaking; it's highly likely that ambient light and what weapon is weilded matters.

 

...The Mages will probably have a blunt trainer somewhere.

 

What makes you think that? The ability to fight with staves has been cut from the game.

 

And seriously, ARE we down to just Blunt, Blades and Marksmanship as our only weapons skills now?

 

Yes.

[batesmotel34]

Bates: I will agree with you on the issue that maybe some sort of weapon class is appropriate for such weapons, Blunt is a completely wrong designation. Even so, I'm pretty sure there's a huge difference between fighting with a mace and fighting with an axe. What sort of weak points you should be aiming for, how you counter armor, how you can best block and defend. There are some similarities, but just not enough, in my opinion.

 

A better designation would be: Slashing, Stabbing, Ranged and Breaking weapons. There'd be more similarities between each class of weapon than there is currently, of course, even so there'd still be troubles. I mean, some weapons would fit into more than one class. You can both stab and slash with a sword, for example. I really just think their old weapon classes were a better idea.

 

On staves, I think you could probably give a staff some sort of staff head or weight near the end to focus it's impact damage, that'd fit it into the class.

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The old weapon classes worked ok but the comment that too many classes made it too much of a penalty to try to use different weapon types was valid in terms of game play. I know that most of my character have tended to specialize in long blade just because that is the class that has the most good weapons in the game and is most acceptable for different faction requirements for advancement. Short blade is almost as good. My characters have rarely specialized in axe or blunt weapon to any great degree because it both retards advancement in the more useful blade classes and there are not that many good weapons in the blunt or axe classes. In the old classes, you do have to admit that there really isn't much in common in how you would use a mace or club and how you would fight effectively with a staff or stave. So the old classes are far from perfect in how they group weapons.

 

A second problem with the existing classes were how damage for the different types of attacks was assigned for different weapons and in weapon weights. Weapons that are designed for a specific type of attack, e.g axes for chopping, spears for thrusting, should probably do significantly more damage for that type of attack than a general purpose weapon like a longsword or broadsword. This should be especially true for weapons like an axe or mace where most of the mass of the weapon is located at the end of a lever arm and hence should inflict damage more effectively, especially against heavy armor where the force must be concentrated to penetrate the armor. Think of the difference between clubbing someone with a baseball bat versus a broomstick or 2x4 of the same weight.

 

I also suspect that the difference in weight between axes and maces in the game versus a sword of a similar class and quality tends to be exagerated. A mace or axe might be slight heavier but the real difference between the different classes of weapons is where the mass is concentrated rather than the total mass of the weapon.

 

Agreed with you on the Imperial Legion. Maybe they could've asked you when you joined, "Want to join the scouts, the footsoldiers or the knights?" Or something, too lazy to make up better names for it, and depending on that you'd get a different "line" of either Light, Medium or Heavy armor.

 

But I argue that the Medium Armor makes sense. I mean, not everything is either Light or Heavy. You need a gray zone. Leather armor is clearly light, platemail is clearly heavy, but what about chainmail? I'd say that's a "gray zone" material. And each would be used in their own way. With light armor you'd still be mostly dodging and blocking, but using your armor to shield you from blows that still hit you. With heavy armor you're counting on the armor to keep you safe, possibly even using your bracers to shield yourself. With medium armor you've got some blows you can turn, some you have to dodge, others you can easily take, etc.

 

I say it's a valid class. I mean, you could even use it for composite armor sorts of things. Maybe you've got a plate chest, but chain pauldrons and greaves, so your torso is protected but your limbs still mobile. That could sort-of be a medium armor style of thing.

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In Medieval European history, mail was the default heavy armor until it was replaced by mixed plate and chain and finally by plate armor (with chain still retained for protection at joints and other locations where flexibility was needed.) From friends in the SCA who have worn both types of armor in recreation combat, I've been told that well designed plate armor is actually easier to move in and less tiring to wear. It actually doesn't need to be significantly heavier than chain providing a comparable degree of protection and the weight is much easier to carry since it is better distributed over the body rather than mostly hanging from your shoulders. Once the technology for well designed plate armor is available then it is the better armor than mail in virtually all circumstances.

 

Maybe a better model for armor skills would be to have just deflect and block skills to represent your ability to gain protection that way, and a separate armor wearing skill that would neutralize the negative effects of the weight of armor you are wearing wearing versus your overall strength. It could be simlar to the effects of different levels of encumbrance on movement rates in some D&D based games.

[PurpleXVI]

Marxist: I still never achieved one-shot kills except against weak animals, so basically the whole idea of stealth-killing is still pretty much, well, killed unless they change the mechanics at least some. And it wouldn't affect your sneaking much unless you kept bumping your weapon into various things, which might be a problem if you were dragging around a pole-arm or claymore, but for a longsword and down, there'd be no trouble. At least not if you remembered to blacken your blade so it wasn't reflective.

 

I forgot about the no staves for mages, in which case I expect there might at least be a low-level blade trainer. Or ranged. After all, mages still need some small weapons to defend themselves with. Daggers would make sense, as would bows that kept their frail bodies away from the fight.

 

All in all, I don't find it that unreasonable that they're forcing us to do a bit of work if we want to make a Battlemage or Spellblade. After all, it's sensible that it's tougher to know BOTH how to blast someone with a fireball AND how to swing a sword at the same person, than it is to know just one of those things. Forcing a bit of specialization isn't a bad idea at all. People can still make "jack of all trades," no doubt, but it's just tougher now, I bet.

 

Bates: I agree that yes, some change in the classes was warranted, but this change just isn't the best they could've made. Maybe they could have left the weapons themselves class-less, but given you skill in each kind of attack? I think that might make a bit more sense, at least to me. Chop, Ranged, Blunt, Slash. Does that idea sound completely insane? Or does it have a bit of merit? Possibly there'd also be a separate "Long Chop/Slash" for weapons that lacked a "centre of damage," like most staves and swords/katanas.

 

And I also agree that the weapons themselves, if not the classes, needed some tweaking. A Claymore was generally as good at stabbing as a Spear of the same class, if it didn't beat it, and generally the best at Slashing and Chopping.

 

I bow to your knowledge of armor, I've frankly never worn it. And again, yes, some sort of general effect based on the weight of the armor affecting your Dodge/Block rates, and your skill making this negative effect less. That seems like a pretty acceptable idea in general. Perhaps a small armor boost assigned to it, too, as you learn to redirect blows with your armor and avoiding blows to weak points.

[super squirrel]

a couple of things.

 

first, "stealth kills" namely sneaking up with a dagger, or a short bow from the shadows, WILL kill automaticly.

 

second, isn't hand to hand still a weapon class?

 

lastly, is there a bonus for punching someone in the nose whilst wearing iron gauntlets, as opposed to bare handed?

[VaanicOne]

first, "stealth kills" namely sneaking up with a dagger, or a short bow from the shadows, WILL kill automaticly.

 

Incorrect.

[super squirrel]

i have read somewhere that stealth-bow attacks, if you are undetected, kill automatically

[VaanicOne]

i have read somewhere that stealth-bow attacks, if you are undetected, kill automatically

I remember a Dev saying that they only gave you a massive boost to your attack, and thus if you are powerful enough, you can kill them in one blow, but only if you are really powerful, or the victim is especially weak.