Legion NV

[devinpatterson]

Before I start putting out my research for the Legion endings. I think that we need two versions of a Legion mod where Caesar is alive and remains leader and the other where Lanius becomes the New Caesar.

Well I think we have to keep in mind the very real possibility that both may be dead at some point. It's not critical for this ending in the begining, but the lore and decisions we make regarding teh legion are also reflected immediately in the NCR (and possibly House/Ind to a lesser degree) ending (where we can assume that in many NCR faction games, both may have perished by the couriers hand). It's unlikely to be the case in the Legion mod initially, but because all mods have the potential to move into the same state as the Independent, we have to consider the possibility of Caeser and Lanius being killed, by the courier, to usurp the throne.

 

In regard to splitting them I think we could split the mods into 4 factions specific mods, but I dont' think it would make sense to split them further than that. There isn't much difference between making two separate mods with their own dialog quests or adding the dialog from both endings to one dialog quest in one mod. If that makes sense (hopefully I explained that in a semi cogent manner)?

 

I would also like to add in a link to the Lanius fan made movie which could give some insight into the Legion and is also worth the watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCrM1_7wnDU . I can already imagine Lanius strolling around with two blind slave girls in this mod.

Thank you, I'll check that out. My knowledge of the Legate is fairly shallow.

 

Since the Frumentari and Lanius have a mutual dislike and distrust I can imagine it would be possible to work with members of the Legion who are unhappy with Lanius and plot to overthrow him. Maybe even the chance for the player to become the new Caesar. This would require the player to gain support from high ranking members in the Legion beforehand. The general consensus about the Legion is that after Caesar's death they will most likely conspire against each other and Lanius isn't someone who can hold the Legion together for a long time.

Absolutely, political intrigue during times of succession were some of the most interesting parts of Rome in my opinion.

 

I like the tattoos that you've designed Devin but they kind of look too tribal to be lore friendly in a Legion mod.

 

That's a completely understandable reaction as I believe they are based on Celtic designs, which in my book are fairly tribal. I spent a few minutes googling and found a few interesting tidbits;

 

Legionary Tatoos;

 

 

'It's a little known fact, but it would appear that all of the legionaries and some of the auxiliaries on Hadrian's Wall would have had a tattoo', says Newcastle University's Museum of Antiquities Director of Archaeological Museums and Roman expert, Lindsay Allason-Jones.

 

The evidence comes from the Roman writer Vegetius, whose Epitome of Military Science, written around the 4th Century AD, is the only account of Roman military practice to have survived intact.

 

'Vegetius recorded that a recruit to the Roman army "should not be tattooed with the pin-pricks of the official mark as soon as he has been selected, but first be thoroughly tested in exercises so that it may be established whether he is truly fitted for so much effort",' says Lindsay. (Source: Flavius Vegetius Renatus, Epitome of Military Science, Chapter :cool:.

 

'We do not know what this official mark looked like. It was possibly an eagle or the symbol of the soldier's legion or unit', she said.

 

Lindsay has even unearthed evidence that the legionaries would have sported the tattoo on their hands. Aetius, the 6th century Roman doctor, recording that tattoos were found on the hands of soldiers, even documented the Roman technique for tattooing, which included first washing the area to be tattooed with leek juice, known for its antiseptic properties. Aetius even went so far as to document the formula for the tattooing ink, which combined Egyptian pine wood (especially the bark), corroded bronze, gall and vitriol with more leek juice. The design was pricked into the skin with pointed needles 'until blood is drawn', and then the ink was rubbed on. (see below)

 

 

 

So long story short; eagle tat on the hand of legionaries. But for our purposes a Bull, possibly on the bicep (obviously some, like Frumentarii would have it someplace they could conceal or none at all) for legionaries. But just an idea, not written in stone. I do however think tats would fit pretty well for the NCR's military branches, it seems to be a common association in our world/military branches.

 

When talking about the Legion with Chief Hanlon we know that the Legion burns and scrapes off tattoos from any tribals they assimilate into their army.

 

Yes they would remove any mark, item or style that signified the old tribe. It's part of the legions assimilation process.

 

Anyway here's what I got for the Legion endings. I've also decided to cover some companions here as well. What we know in the general victory endings for the Legion that as bad as Caesar is, he is regarded a peaceful overlord compared to Lanius who is regarded as a savage. This results in more people being killed when the Legion enslaves the Mojave under his rule.

 

Definitely, I believe there is also good evidence (from the wiki on salt lake city, and from caravan owners that pass through legion held territory) that cities under Caesar are very safe, and well run etc. The idea of ruthless but civilized under Caesar. With Lanius being a disaster for all involved.

 

Gotta run, check in soon.

 

EDIT woah, the board just added 6 close qoute tags, that's crazy, I'm not even gonna deal with it.

Edited March 22, 2014 by devinpatterson

[devinpatterson]

I could see that being used for the White Legs but they're the only tribe to have want to join the Legion, all others were forced.

No I think that would be too great of an assumption to make. We have direct evidence of it through the DLC, but that does not correlate that they are the only ones. Men are drawn to power, it is obvious the Legion is powerful. Men may capitulate to a greater power and some tribals may see allying with the legion as the only way to survive.

 

The Legion was committing majority of its military to Hoover Dam, after their first loss (And second, GO NCR!) they committed solely on recruiting and training. Again, I'm sure they have some troops stationed else where for defense but I can't see any major push into new lands while they're busy with the NCR.

Yes they would commit military resources dependent on resistance, as I stated above. Part of the legion recruitment process is conquering new tribes. So you can see where I'm going with this?

 

Also how do you break up quotes like that?

Its a quote tag (just like HTML in structure (and opening and closing tag). I can't type it (or the board's software will see it as an actual open ended quote) but if you select the javascript icon (looks like a little light switch) you'll see them.

[devinpatterson]

Ok one other quick point before I jet, to pain the picture. There is a symmetry here between the Legion and NCR in that they are somewhat matched (at least in teh same ballpark, militarily speaking). If the rangers and troopers at Hoover were killed in a legion victory (complete NCR route/overridden) it wouldn't mean that the Core region was undefended an consequently immediately the Legions. A lot of NCR resources are being used in the Mojave, but the core regions aren't unprotected.

 

The same is reflected in the Legion. They have resources and troops within their lands that they can bring to bear against the NCR even if Hoover is a complete defeat for them. The key here is that these two powers are as close to super powers as the post apocalyptic world would allow and although the Mojave is pivotal in both's military strategy it's not the end game (complete victory or complete defeat) for either side. Both factions have a lot more going on than *just* the Mojave.

 

It's also necessary from our POV to have additional content, troops etc for continuing story lines. Ie. there's still plenty of work to be done even with a Legion victory at hoover....the core region and NCR in general doesn't disappear regardless of what happens at Hoover, it just rearranges some of the battle lines and gives one side or the other a strategic advantage.

[sgtKraigO]

 

I could see that being used for the White Legs but they're the only tribe to have want to join the Legion, all others were forced.

No I think that would be too great of an assumption to make. We have direct evidence of it through the DLC, but that does not correlate that they are the only ones. Men are drawn to power, it is obvious the Legion is powerful. Men may capitulate to a greater power and some tribals may see allying with the legion as the only way to survive.

 

 

 

There may be other tribes that are petitioning too join the Legion but we have no evidence of that. We know that all 87 tribes that have joined the legion were forced into it.

 

 

 

The Legion was committing majority of its military to Hoover Dam, after their first loss (And second, GO NCR!) they committed solely on recruiting and training. Again, I'm sure they have some troops stationed else where for defense but I can't see any major push into new lands while they're busy with the NCR.

Yes they would commit military resources dependent on resistance, as I stated above. Part of the legion recruitment process is conquering new tribes. So you can see where I'm going with this?

 

I see your point, but they also had other resources to relies on like towns and cities, reservists, males who would have been considered too young to fight in war were also probably rushed into service too fill in the ranks.

[sgtKraigO]

The same is reflected in the Legion. They have resources and troops within their lands that they can bring to bear against the NCR even if Hoover is a complete defeat for them. The key here is that these two powers are as close to super powers as the post apocalyptic world would allow and although the Mojave is pivotal in both's military strategy it's not the end game (complete victory or complete defeat) for either side. Both factions have a lot more going on than *just* the Mojave.

 

It's also necessary from our POV to have additional content, troops etc for continuing story lines. Ie. there's still plenty of work to be done even with a Legion victory at hoover....the core region and NCR in general doesn't disappear regardless of what happens at Hoover, it just rearranges some of the battle lines and gives one side or the other a strategic advantage.

 

True, it has been stated that a large reason as too why the NCR is doing so poorly is due to Kimballs desire to send a large chunk of experienced troops too Baja. If the NCR lost at Hoover Dam they would still have a decent sized army but they would lack leadership, the states would be arguing with each other, troop morale would be way down, and civilians would most likely start too riot do to poor economy and a failing government.

[devinpatterson]

There may be other tribes that are petitioning too join the Legion but we have no evidence of that. We know that all 87 tribes that have joined the legion were forced into it.

Strange that you would argue this point so reverently when we have an obvious example, and it's name sake Rome (upon which the legion is based and follows a similar example of conquest) sets a historical precendent, and it may be that part of the way the other tribes were forced into the legion very well could be abduction of tribal leadership. But you must feel very strongly against the concept of Caesar taking hostages.....although I have no idea why. Do you think it's against his nature? I suspect he woudln't have any qualms against it.

 

But regardless, I have to move on.

 

EDIT dang quote tags, they'r just messing with me today

Edited March 22, 2014 by devinpatterson

[sgtKraigO]

 

There may be other tribes that are petitioning too join the Legion but we have no evidence of that. We know that all 87 tribes that have joined the legion were forced into it.

Strange that you would argue this point so reverently when we have an obvious example, and it's name sake Rome (upon which the legion is based and follows a similar example of conquest) sets a historical precendent, and it may be that part of the way the other tribes were forced into the legion very well could be abduction of tribal leadership. But you must feel very strongly against the concept of Caesar taking hostages.....although I have no idea why. Do you think it's against his nature? I suspect he woudln't have any qualms against it.

 

But regardless, I have to move on.

 

EDIT dang quote tags, they'r just messing with me today

 

 

I just have a difficult time seeing the need for hostages when the Legion could just move in and wipe them out. Unless the tribe wants too join and Caesar sent them on an errand there could be need, but if you have a few thousand well trained troops with more in reserve against a few hundred who have no concept of open war then I just don't see a need for it. I also don't see it in Caesars nature too hold hostages for that reason.

[devinpatterson]

I also don't see it in Caesars nature too hold hostages for that reason.

I don't think they have any problem using hostages for their purposes. In fact the "Back in Your Own Backyard" quest if focused solely on the Legion use of NCR hostages. But I guess agree to disagree.

 

Anyway have a good one, I'll check in later. P.S. also making some good progress with teh convo editor, soooooooo much easier than editing the dialog quests directly.

[sgtKraigO]

One thing I just remembered is mentioning that the mines around the Mojave could be occupied by workers from the NCR and a few soldiers (for protection) in order to give the feeling that they're still operational and the resources are being extracted. This could work with the Legion as well, except with slaves and a few soldiers (For protection and to ensure the slaves are working).

 

I think if there was a quest behind it it would go something like: Talk to (Insert name) from the Legion/OSI. Locate X amount of mines around the mojave. Clear out any baddies from the mines. Report back to (insert name) and tell them mining operations can begin. If the player finds any more mines then them clear them out and contact (insert name) so they can expand their operations.

 

P.S. you should make an NCR thread as I have a lot of ideas for them XP

Edited March 23, 2014 by sgtKraigO

[Devilman1975]

Here's an interesting quote from the White Legs wiki page.

 

"Though the White Legs want to be assimilated by Caesar's Legion, many of White Leg warriors are women. This indicates that they don't know what they're signing up for, similar to the Great Khans. Caesar was also known to betray his allies: the Twisted Hairs formed an alliance with Caesar to serve as his army's scouts in Arizona. Once the Arizona wastes were pacified, the Legion stripped their tribal identity and forced them into slavery. Those who resisted were crucified along the remains of I-40."

 

I'm have to admit that I'm curious about what makes a tribe useful or expendable to the Legion. In my post about Honest Hearts sometime ago I predicated that even if the White Legs had killed the New Caanites then the Legion would have turned against them anyway. The males would be killed and the women kept alive only to make babies for the Legion. I assume that tribes like the White Legs that have forgotten how to speak in English and developed their own dialect would be considered useless to the Legion. Tribes like the Twisted Hairs may be considered as a more developed type of tribe if Ulysess's ability to hack into Eyebots and operate pre war military bases in Lonesome Road is any indication. I doubt that he learned those types of skills in the Legion. These tribes who can still speak proper English and operate pre war technology would be considered more useful to the Legion and assimilated into it's army.