Do schools focus too much on Literature?

[Herculine]

I like to have less emphasis on grammer in dialogue but more in other aspects of writing such as narrative or description. Less face it, most people do not speak with correct grammer especially if in a hurry, under stress, poorly educated etc.......

 

I have been told off by Grammer Nazis for making an ignorant peasant speak with out proper grammer.

 

Creative writing is not just about grammer, it is about good story telling, good communications and strong believability (the ability to suspend disbelief).

 

Those Grammar Nazis obviously don't know anything about creative writing as it relates to narratives or about how to create a believable fictional character.

 

Perhaps the solution to this debate would be for all schools to practice what some already do (colleges, for example): the study of Literature is kept in its own course while grammar and other writing skills are taught in a separate course.

 

There, problem solved. What's the next debate?

[jaosals42]

I like to have less emphasis on grammer in dialogue but more in other aspects of writing such as narrative or description. Less face it, most people do not speak with correct grammer especially if in a hurry, under stress, poorly educated etc.......

 

I have been told off by Grammer Nazis for making an ignorant peasant speak with out proper grammer.

 

Creative writing is not just about grammer, it is about good story telling, good communications and strong believability (the ability to suspend disbelief).

 

Those Grammar Nazis obviously don't know anything about creative writing as it relates to narratives or about how to create a believable fictional character.

 

Perhaps the solution to this debate would be for all schools to practice what some already do (colleges, for example): the study of Literature is kept in its own course while grammar and other writing skills are taught in a separate course.

 

There, problem solved. What's the next debate?

 

The problem there may be "Well, how many courses does a student need to take of grammar and how many of literature?" Of course, my opinion would probably say that one year of grammar and the rest in literature.

 

Now when a student has to take one course or the other, that may either have to be up to their discretion or left to the teachers to decide the layout of the courses.

[Vagrant0]

Creative writing is not just about grammer, it is about good story telling, good communications and strong believability (the ability to suspend disbelief).

Actually, no it isn't, quite the contrary. One of the hardest parts of writing a story can be in explaining/presenting ideas in a way that people can understand it, and maintaining a certain voice or format thoughout. If supporting concepts aren't clear, or don't use good grammar, often the concept gets misunderstood, and can end up making the story alot more difficult to read/tolerate. Even in dialogues, while some poorer grammar might fit for some characters, it won't fit for all of them, so being able to phrase things in both ways, at differing degrees, is quite paramount. You need to know how language is structured in order to know how to break apart that structure in a way that is believable. Forcing bad grammar never works out well, and having an ignorance of grammar only tarnishes any work you put that effort in. There is so much importance of grammar in creative writing that there are people paid specifically to go through and find those faults... They're called editors, little gets published and printed without their stamp of approval, and they have the paychecks to prove it.

 

You should read some fan fiction some time, some of it is bad enough to make your eyes bleed. And that's stuff that people thought was good enough to have readable online.

[evilneko]

Given the level of grammar that I see not only in high school-age kids, but also in college students*, I'd say there is definitely a shortage of grammar instruction in school. You might rebut that with, "but kids aren't paying attention," but even then, some blame rests on the school for passing such kids on.

 

*- I was able to look over a few papers written for a college sophomore-level composition course recently, and a disturbing number of them were quite shameful.

[Herculine]

Given the level of grammar that I see not only in high school-age kids, but also in college students*, I'd say there is definitely a shortage of grammar instruction in school. You might rebut that with, "but kids aren't paying attention," but even then, some blame rests on the school for passing such kids on.

 

*- I was able to look over a few papers written for a college sophomore-level composition course recently, and a disturbing number of them were quite shameful.

 

I strongly agree. When I was a sophomore in high school I found it extremely difficult to understand how one of my classmates had made it to the same grade level without being able to read. Things like that should never happen in our schools.

[jaosals42]

Given the level of grammar that I see not only in high school-age kids, but also in college students*, I'd say there is definitely a shortage of grammar instruction in school. You might rebut that with, "but kids aren't paying attention," but even then, some blame rests on the school for passing such kids on.

 

*- I was able to look over a few papers written for a college sophomore-level composition course recently, and a disturbing number of them were quite shameful.

 

That's exactly how I feel. It doesn't help to know that the Tennessee English Gateway Test is offered to highschool sophomores, but said test is written at an 8th grade or lower level. It doesn't get accurate results of where we really are for our age.

[Keanumoreira]

What do you think?

 

I personally, as a high-school junior (living in the US at least) do believe that the focus on literature in the U.S English classes is far too heavy. Whereas, the grammar emphasis is not nearly enough.

 

Last year, as a sophomore in English, I had to read 9 books in class, 4 books out of class and lots of crap related to them, but only for two weeks (and only the first two weeks of the school year btw) did we focus on anything that was actually related to grammar.

 

So here I was supposed to be, the last three years of English classes to take almost no grammar whatsoever and have to read more than two dozen novels throughout the course of that time and write many vast research papers on them without any emphasis on grammar? Really?

 

And (no offense to anyone in particular) I have seen many fellow highschoolers with horrible grammar issues, (namely a school friend of mine who has syntax and spelling issues), horrible grades on essays due to having forgotten grammar, and yet, the schools continued to put countless focus on solely literature and not grammar.

 

I understand literature can help people understand the times of which said books were written, but do we really have to spend the whole year doing nothing but? How about dedicating one semester to literary analysis and one to grammar? That would probably fix a lot of issues that we students face in terms of grammar.

 

Is the problem worldwide or what?

/quote Hmmmm, intresting topic. Well I see how pieved you would be, however school is a necessity and we all need it.

Now I'm not a nerd, or a school fan, but face it you need it, its just one of those things you'll have to indure. But I agree thats outragous, such work would melt my brain.

[Vagrant0]

 

Once again, reading IS grammar study. You read the book, you see how sentences are supposed to look. Maybe the problem is that teachers are forgetting to connect the two together. In Highschool I had 3 semesters of mixed English class, 1 semester of speed reading, 1 semester of creative writing (only remember 2 of those 3 years ever happening though for some reason (most of Sophmore year is kinda a blank really (then again I think I had to take it in summer school one year for some reason (so 4 years worth technically))). From what I remember, the only specific grammar work was freshman year. After that it was reading and writing papers. Again, writing papers are a way of testing someones grammar abilities. So it's not that you aren't getting the content, it's that you aren't really acknowledging it, or are spending too much time using cliffnotes and word processors to act as a shortcut around thinking and doing.

 

Anyway, Highschool is the 4 most important years of your life which are only important until you get into college. If you don't personally try to learn those skills in highschool, you will either not get into a good college, or will be spending quite a bit of time and money learning those skills.

 

As history has shown, trying to hold back the whole class and force them through formalized grammar studies because a few people don't care, aren't paying attention, or simply don't get it, will only end up hurting everyone else. If you honestly feel that your grammar is lacking, you can always spend a few moments of your time to work on it... Often, learning how to do things on your own is the only way you'll ever learn.

 

The reality is that those people without grammar skills are either lazy, don't care, or can't be bothered to learn. Sure, they may still graduate highschool, but they probably won't amount to much after that unless they actually try to improve on their own at some point.

 

Do you really want to sit through several 1 hour classes learning about grammar just because one person in the class doesn't get it, or doesn't care to? Atleast reading is somewhat entertaining.

[Marxist ßastard]

You read the book, you see how sentences are supposed to look.

Okay, you've earned a reply. Why? Because you've made me laugh. How? Well, I just couldn't help but picture a horde of middle-school teachers cracking open some Faulkner and announcing to their poor students that this is how sentences are supposed to look.

 

Once again, reading IS grammar study... Maybe the problem is that teachers are forgetting to connect the two together.

They absolutely shouldn't. Creative writing (which literature relates to) and technical writing (where grammar is important) have completely different goals and rules. Teaching students proper grammar through literature makes as much sense as grading bar graphs based on artistic flair.

 

Hell, technical writing ought to be split off as a separate course in eighth grade. Have the little monsters read Tufte and do drills reorganizing paragraphs. By tenth grade, they should be discussing interesting articles they spotted in Science that week. For kicks, relate stuff back to French and Latin, or touch on the cultural factors in organization. Throw some speech in there too, even, and call it "communications."

 

...Formalized grammar studies because a few people don't care, aren't paying attention, or simply don't get it, will only end up hurting everyone else... Do you really want to sit through several 1 hour classes learning about grammar just because one person in the class doesn't get it, or doesn't care to?

Everyone could learn to communicate more effectively, especially at high-school level. And even just a refresher on basic grammar would be worthy material for a high-school level class (this is how you form a plural; here are the rules on capitalization in running text and title text; prepositions are appropriate to end sentences with; you absolutely can start a sentence with "and," "since," or "but"; and Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo).

 

The reality is that those people without grammar skills are either lazy, don't care, or can't be bothered to learn.

You're talking about the majority of the US population here. We all have horrible grammar and communicate ineffectively.

 

Often, learning how to do things on your own is the only way you'll ever learn.

Things like enjoying to read literature, you mean?

[myrmaad]

By the time you get to high school you should be very proficient with grammar, and ready for literature.

 

I remember learning the bulk of my grammar lessons in 6th grade: dissecting a sentence, identifying its parts: conjunctions, adjectives, adverbs, nouns, verbs, the subject and the predicate, dangling participles, never end a sentence with a preposition, or a prepositional phrase. What the hell are you doing screwing around with those in high school?

 

Marxist male without a father, how dare you end your sentence with a preposition? Where is your brain at? And who told you that's okay?

 

 

 

And that is most definitely not what I said!