Union Car or Socialist Car?

[dezdimona]

i buy taste wise of course. I have two vehicles and am in the market for a 64-65 GTO at the moment.My Dad's a gear head and has passed the love of American Muscle cars on to me amoung other things.

[RebelOConner]

Hey, ever since now the automotive industry is either Unionized, or under a Socialist government. Unions have car companies like GM and Chevrolet at thier throat. Socialist cars on the other hand (Cars from European Car companies, or Asian Car companies) are.. Socialist! Having no choice to get a Capitalist Car, which one is better?

 

No flaming, no complaining, and no anger directed towards me please. Sorry if I offend Socialists or Union Workers, we all have our opinions and I just wished there was a purely made Capitalist Car.

 

If you do not attempt any of the above actions in this thread you can say whatever you want.

 

:thanks:

 

well, you don't want flaming or anger directed toward you, but it's impossible. you offence me, effectivly, not because i am socialist ( i don't care about politic) but because i'm NOT socialiste.

i think someone must explain you how the world works.

( no, no, don't thank me, it's a pleasure)

 

I'm french, and i could explain you precisly what is the politic in europe.

EU is formed by 27 countries.

18 are democratic republics ( if you prefer, all of the citizens can vote to coose their government)

2 are federal republic ( like USA, but not totaly )

7 are democratic kingdoms ( with a king or a queen, but lead by an elected prime minster )

 

since the destruction of the USSR, and all of its satellite countries, in 1992, we can count: 5 socialism countries.

only.

 

incredible, no?

i hope i didn't break all of your convictions.

 

but the majority of all the counties in the world are with a capitalist government- i'm sure that you understand the actual economic crisis was caused by ultra-capitalsim.

 

so, you could prehaps understand that USA is not the only democratic country in the world. and that not because other countries are not USA that they are socialist one.

 

so, if you find i flamed you, i apologize, but i would know what is exactly your definition of "socialism" because i think it's wrong.

 

And to answer to your question: ALL of the cars solded in the world are "capitalist" car. socialist countries except china don't export cars.

[Rixirite]

I never said every european is socialist. I am merely stating that European countrys tend to be quite socialist in aspects like high payroll taxes, how involved the government is with the people. Look at UK for example with it's socialized medicine and heavy indiscriminant law enforcement surveillance along with its value added tax. While many european countries are not labelled socialist they act like socialist nations.

 

One might understand my frustration towards europe as being a natural american instinct, too bad many americans are losing sight of how this country was made.

[Nexus Set]

I don't know if anyone can pick his/her choice of vehicle just based solely on the criteria of political overtones. meh :rolleyes:

 

I don't think this thread has a bright future.

[RebelOConner]

I never said every european is socialist. I am merely stating that European countrys tend to be quite socialist in aspects like high payroll taxes, how involved the government is with the people. Look at UK for example with it's socialized medicine and heavy indiscriminant law enforcement surveillance along with its value added tax. While many european countries are not labelled socialist they act like socialist nations.

 

One might understand my frustration towards europe as being a natural american instinct, too bad many americans are losing sight of how this country was made.

 

so your conception of the socialist is effectively wrong.

as i understood, for you socialism = not american.

 

high payroll taxe, on the contrary, are involved by ultra-capitalist government. socialism tend to make a compulsory equality and forbid economic activity.

history show us that this mentality failed. but the crisis show us that capitalism failed too.

i read some times ago, a book wrote by michael moore (Dude, where's my country ?). i remember that he say he consider himself as a socialist, and that he thinks that the majority of the inhabitants if the USA are socialist.

perhaps it's the only thing i really read about the US society, but for me, and for a majority of the frenchs, your president is twenty time more socialist than ours.

 

Nexus Set is right, this topic has no futur, exept for useless debat.

i recommand you to close it.

[phoneyLogic]

Socialist cars on the other hand (Cars from European Car companies, or Asian Car companies) are.. Socialist!

Maybe you have an strange idea of politics.

All European countries are Democracies.

And widely spoken, you could say: as long as a Party does not offend against the conditions on which our countries are based, they are allowed to exist.

 

I'm from Germany (which is somewhere in Europe^^) and lately we had elections.

Now, our government is coalition of the two parties CDU and FDP. Both are capitalistic and ultracapitalistic.

Basicly this happened because that the Socialists were in charge before and they destroyed our social systems by the Agenda 2010 (purely made by Gerhard "di Pasti" Schroeder)

So the Sozialists lost about 10% and they fell from 30% down to 20%.

They really lost maybe the half of all their voters and they deserved it.

(Many socialist voters just refused to elect, because they felt not represented.)

 

But anyway, it doesn't matter if an European country has an socialist or a capitalist government since we do have sth that is called constitution.

So our whole political system does not change every 4 years because of a "capitalist" (aka liberal conservative) or "socialist" (aka social democratic) government ...

Finally we managed to keep our private possessions and so on. :blush:

 

-> European countries are and remain capitalist, as well as their companies and all the cars they produce. ;)

[RebelOConner]

->psyclops

i agree. France is a capitalist country too. even the rare socialit governments we had were forced to follow capitalit movements.

[jaysus]

watch out with the word "federal"

it means two totally different things depending on where you are from... in germany its the principle of power being divided between regions of a nation where each territory can rule freely more or less (similiar to the US), in france for example on the other hand its the consolidation of power in one place aka centralization but the division of the ruled territory in regions for better handling...

 

there are no democratic monarchies, these are republican monarchies often falsely named representative monarchies aswell but the queen of the UK for example can still veto basicly any law and sometimes does so mainly in support of colonial occupation of certain regions of the world like the islands of chagos...

 

there is also no real democracy anywhere o this planet with the exception of swizerland maybe, maybe... you simply dont vote for your government at all, you vote for people who then vote for people who go to vote for people that will vote for those that claim to rule but are just doing what banking principles tell them apart from the fact that at least in the EU its members have given all of their government control to the eu council and commission, you as a citizen can only vote for the parliament which has as good as no say at all...

all important desicions like the atm famous "lissabon treaty" are decided not by you the citizen but by the council and noone can say for sure how the council is formed, its formed of "important figures", people of the banking system for example...

the LT is severly cutting our rights btw, a cop can now shoot you and will never face charges... great, so much to democracy... its rather a police state...

 

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there are as was said before no socialist cars nor capitalist ones and so on... the only car which could maybe fit the term "socalist car" was the famous "trabant" made in the former GDR... the first VW beetle or the model T might also fit in that role, both were cars thought to be mainstream cars for the whole of the population...

a real socalist car would however be owned by the whole population which in none of these cases was true

 

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basicly any car you can buy was created using capitalist ways, even unions are just puppets of capitalists...

there simply is no way out of capitalist creation as long as the world is ruled by those few that control the global banking system and use money as a tool of total control worse than religion...

volvo for example coming from sweden should be a union production but it is owned by ford who is obviously capitalist, a ford union wouldnt have bought a swedish company, it would have tended for its workers instead of firing them.

 

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also mind that working on an assembly line at mercedes or whatever doesnt mean you're simply a mashine screwing in bolts... maybe do a trip through one of these manufacturers factories and see for yourself... an IT education takes 4 years as does an education in assemblying a car... and the workload is equal thus its just fair that they get the same share apart from the fact that most workers nower days do similiar stuff to an IT technician, checking hydraulics with a computer for example or controlling those robots you mentioned.

 

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if you want a good car get an old '68 ford mustang and put in a good 3Liter (0.75gallons or so) motor to safe bucks on petrol (sounds ridiculous i know lol)... get a volvo if you intend to get a car that will survive an atomic blast... these are sturdy as *ban me* i tell you, did a 30feet screw lunge after i hit a metal rod that exploded a backwheeltire and the bloody motor was still running... had some fishmarinade on my head tho due to a broken can of that stuff...

[Rixirite]

basicly any car you can buy was created using capitalist ways, even unions are just puppets of capitalists...

 

I disagree, the union is the one deciding whether or not the company they work for (UAW working at Chevy) can make a plant down south to escape from forced-union states. Unions tend to control the car world, usually a world they didn't earn because they complain how much their job sucks and how they should make the equivalent wage as an IT developer. If American car companies were not unionized companies like saturn would not be depending on penske to keep them up and running. Car companies in the US are getting handouts because the amount of money it takes to feed the unions is way too much, doesn't this mean more taxpayer dollars go out to these companies? It is as if the car industry is on welfare so they can give money they don't have.

 

If car companies get handouts then obviously America is going to become socialist. I would rather support european car companies then support people who demolish the company they choosed to work for knowing what kind of money they make. My philosophy on that is simple: If you don't like your job then find another one.. The American car industry like other great American feats are fading off.

[Vagrant0]

Pretty much why I had said

I'm not even going to try and explain how there is no such thing as a union car or a socialist car or even a capitalist car. You clearly have your own ideas about that, and probably wouldn't listen to reality if it smacked you over the head with a baseball bat (made in USA (by union labor)).

 

The OP seems to have only a passing understanding of socialism (about as much as the average FOX News Viewer) and is grossly misinformed about how unions work and what their purpose is. Arguing, or even trying to explain these things is essentially a lost cause since there is no interest in the part of the OP in seeing how things are in the real world. All they know is that the car industry is in the crapper, and think it's the fault of people wanting to be able to live above the poverty line for making it that way. It's not the OP's fault that they're confusing the health insurance issue, as some call it socialist, and what real socialism is. It's not the fault of the OP that some news organizations seem to be rehashing 60 year old rhetoric to try and simplify (bias added) a system so that it can be understood by the masses. This is not a discussion about the health systems and practices of other countries (which up until about a year ago were heralded as being better than the US, and was often a better choice when it came to major surgeries, meanwhile many doctors in the US were having to move to rural areas or quit their practices due to high insurance costs (yes, doctors have to pay for insurance in order to work)), it is about a gross lack of understanding of an industry, the practices and history of that industry, and believing that based on these faulty views one can make a good choice of what they should be driving.

 

If you really cared about helping American labor, you would not be asking on a forum, instead you would be researching the individual makes and models from all auto companies, and seeing which of them even produce cars in the US. Or did you honestly think that all Japanese or European company cars were built in those countries, converted for US standards, shipped across the ocean, and trucked to a dealership in the middle of Nebraska?

 

*edit* forgot to add that the OP apparently doesn't seem to understand how taxes and the economy works either.

 

*edit2* For the record, the car industry has been in the crapper for the better part of the last decade. In the last 10 years or so they have repeatedly been making bad decisions. It started with throwing out the ideas of using alternative fuels, like hydrogen and electric in favor of gasoline, which turned out to be a fairly bad idea post 9/11 given that most of our oil comes from the middle east (can blame the environmentalists for part of this too). Followed shortly after with offering higher and higher "dealer incentives" and "you pay what we pay" campaigns which were designed to boost sales, but only ended up ruining profits which were, at the time, busy paying the large salaries of the company execs (they certainly weren't taking any pay cuts, it's tough having to work 8 hours a week and play golf every day). After which, they started with mass layoffs, closing down plants, causing many towns to go belly up, which increased the unemployment rate in those areas, which decreased the amount of money those areas could send back into the economy in other areas, which further depressed (high fuel prices means everything which is not made locally costs more) those other areas, which spreads unemployment even more... So, this whole mess is something that has been a long time coming, was made worse as companies were building vehicles which were not even remotely fuel efficient, and is essentially due entirely in part to capitalistic greed. They were getting money from the government because nobody else would give them any, and a bunch of highly paid execs can't exactly build their own cars.