Union Car or Socialist Car?

[Rixirite]

The Honda plant in America is in Illinois which is a forced union state.

It's not a "forced union state" It is along with most of the midwest and California and New York one of the last strong Union states.But a forced Union State! Hardly.People recognize what equality and a fair paycheck is in these states and fight for it. Because japanese companies produce and flood the market doen't make their products better..check Toyotas latest recall stats and nissans...OOPs!

 

Fair wage for fair working hours is not a given,it has to be like freedom foughten for.Big money will always say unions are bad because unions want their employees given a fair shake.Read up on labor before the unions came into being. I think you'll find an eye opener into why Big business and some governments hate them..equallity over slavery...anyday my friend!

 

If you read one of my earlier posts I stated that Unions made sense in the 50's etc but not anymore. In a modern society food is cheap and requires little labor to get it. Toyota isn't the same thing as Honda. The whole idea in my paragraph about that was if you compare the Japanese facility with a American one that produces the same motorcycle, the one in a non-union factory is more productive and efficient compared to a union run factory. To me Unions are causing financial problems because like I stated before the companies cannot afford to make cars cause the union takes a hog amount of money and the car companies run to our government to get bailed out which means my money and your money (If you live in the US) goes straight to these companies. That isn't fair and I don't think unions deserve to make all kinds of money when some of that money is coming for me.

 

In my opinion Unions no longer serve thier place anymore in America, with labor protection laws in this country it boils down to the worker: Does the worker want to sign an application for a company that expects him to work 8 hours a day? If he doesn't want to work 8 hours a day and the company doesn't want him then he should leave and find another job instead of getting employed then once inside whine that he isn't paid enough or is overworked when he stated in his application that he would work 8 hour shifts. One of my relatives did this in his truck union up in canada..

[dezdimona]

It's opinions like yours that put this country in jeopardy! United we stand,divided we all applies to not only our country but our unions as well.Its nice to see you've never fought for anything in your life,its been a given.Why should you care? mommy and daddy provided you with everything.I come from two generations of union people,guess what we'll continue to fight to earn a good living and also pass on to the non-union people the benefits of unionism hard work,hard negotiations and intelligence for fair wages.You know nothing about unions yet claim they are no longer needed; that sir snacks of of plain ignorance.I would never claim to know about something I never lived nor grew up with.You on the other hand buy into and suck on the corporate teat and find it all the more willing to talk what they preach rather than learn the truth.You speak hollow words and as such your responses are empty as your mind and heart.So I'll continue this debate with those that at least have an understanding and knowledge about an issue rather than a Poleaxed corporate yes man ideology

[Rixirite]

There is no ignorance in observation into the work and philosophies behind unions when it comes to me, I have a open mind and explore different agendas and philosophies and by the nature of good and bad I also have the nature of what is wrong and what is right, many may not agree with my philosophies and that is fine.

 

Union workers make way more money than they need because union workers like my Relative from Canada has a nice house with lots of expensive appliances, he is spoiled and dipped into his own pride being that he is in a union and there are people that work way harder than him that don't even make the same pay or live in a nice house like he lives in. There is also a Union person I know at a barn down the street who sits on his bum all year long except for 2 months of actual labor and gets paid so fancy that he has his own house on a farm property. I just don't think it is right for Union workers to get paid that way and be able to work as little time as possible and take as much money as they can, in my opinion it is laziness, incompetence, and downright unfair for other people who work hard and make peanuts for money.

[Vagrant0]

There is no ignorance in observation into the work and philosophies behind unions when it comes to me, I have a open mind and explore different agendas and philosophies and by the nature of good and bad I also have the nature of what is wrong and what is right, many may not agree with my philosophies and that is fine.

When was this now? Might I request some proof of being open minded, or exploring different philosophies? Most everything you've presented so far has been kinda one sided, lacking any hint of an open mind, and littered with beliefs of outright misinformation. It's one thing to say that you are that kind of person, and another to give any hint that that might be the case. I don't know you personally, but everything so far seems to suggest something contrary to having an open mind.

 

Union workers make way more money than they need because union workers like my Relative from Canada has a nice house with lots of expensive appliances, he is spoiled and dipped into his own pride being that he is in a union and there are people that work way harder than him that don't even make the same pay or live in a nice house like he lives in. There is also a Union person I know at a barn down the street who sits on his bum all year long except for 2 months of actual labor and gets paid so fancy that he has his own house on a farm property. I just don't think it is right for Union workers to get paid that way and be able to work as little time as possible and take as much money as they can, in my opinion it is laziness, incompetence, and downright unfair for other people who work hard and make peanuts for money.

Right... so how exactly is your relative typical of a union worker? How is that so called "union person" down at a "barn" a typical union worker either? Do you even know what these people do, or are we just working off some sort of major generalization which was created from only fragmented knowledge of those you were basing that generalization off of? I can't imagine how someone, who has so many connections to "union" labor can have such a narrow and misinformed view of how unions handle employees and claims, or what work in any industry really even is.

 

I can only guess, but I would assume that that "guy that works at a barn" that you speak of is involved in agriculture... In which case, to the uninformed observer, it might look like they are only working 2 months out of the year. This is because when you are dealing with a crop, most of the time all you are doing is waiting for it to grow. The only obvious things which might be seen by the uninformed spectator as being "work" would be when it comes to planting or harvesting that crop. What you don't see is all the other stuff that has to be done in between planting and harvesting, such as watering, checking for pests, checking soil pH, checking crop yield, and maintaining equipment. Most of the "work" is likely done in the early hours, when the sun is low so that the worker isn't baking in their skin, and so that when watering/spraying plants, the plants have a chance to dry before the sun can cook them. If he owns his own farm, and is earning money selling something produced on that land, he is probably doing this himself on his own land. If this "barn" you speak of is also owned by him, and is on his land, he isn't union... He's the owner, and the owner can never be part of the union. I also highly doubt that the farm where all this "bum sitting" is union, or keeps everyone employed when it is not one of the planting/harvesting seasons.

 

As for the whole "demanding 8 hour days" thing... I honestly don't know what you're smoking. If someone refuses to work their shift, they will be in breach of contract and probably fired... This goes for both union and non-union labor. If someone works more than 8 hours a day, or 40 hours a week, they get paid overtime. Generally, atleast among those who actually NEED to work, overtime pay is a very welcome thing, and will take any hours they can get. I really cannot imagine anyone being hired for a job, being allowed to complain about it being too hard or dangerous, being allowed to demand anything without proof, and remaining in that job for very long. People who complain alot, or aren't suited for a job usually get told to stop coming in if it continues. If you cannot perform the job you are hired for, that is breach of contract, and that is entirely between the employee and the employer. Unions have no say over the terms or content of an employee-employer contract unless that contract is somehow unfair to one or both parties. Very rarely do unions need to step in on things like this since any union shop usually has other employees under the same contract, and who can meet the terms of said contract. The situation you are talking about, simply, does not exist in reality unless there are some truly unusual circumstances involved. Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if you've even had a job that isn't staffed primarily by high school aged kids.

[dezdimona]

Labor Day 2001 12:00 PM ET

Editorial: Do We Need Labor Unions in America?

 

by J. Lowery, RLUO News Writer

 

 

DETROIT, MICHIGAN (RLUO) - I can only answer this question from my own perspective and my own experience as an American worker. With our economy reaching enormous levels of prosperity why would anyone want or need a labor union? Simply, because as long as power, greed, and tyranny dwell in the hearts of humankind, there will always be a need to protect the many from just such a few.

 

Labor Deserves Respect

 

Do American business people have a right to run their own companies as they see fit? Absolutely. But when employers begin to circumvent the laws of this country, when they take upon themselves the license to abuse American workers out of arrogance and power induced self-centered behavior then democracy mandates, no, it screams out it's canon that humanity alone deserves respect. The human at the end of that mop or broom or bedpan celebrates his or her dignity by being there. By sharing in the work. By helping American businesses to flourish. By being willing partners in this wonderful grand experiment we Americans call capitalism. And wonderful it is!

 

American Labor's Rich Spirit

 

We live not simply in a rich society, but a society full of riches. Riches like the American spirit, a spirit that has always been about more than just money. It's about caring enough to do our best even when no one's looking. A spirit that courageously empowers the American single Mom to grab a picket sign and say to her employer, "No, you are not going to do this to me anymore." How wonderful this American labor spirit is that it will never allow itself to be slapped with the abuses of a dysfunctional, abusive work environment. Joined together, these American workers stand tall, stand powerful, stand together with grace and the dignity that self-worth brings. Only through the commonality of such injurious experiences can the mustard seed of faith sprout so tremendously.

 

 

Labor Unions Bring Dignity and Respect

 

American labor unions are the breakers by which we steadfastly hold back the tide of the frailty of humankind. Some business people are twisted by power, by arrogance, by greed that distorts their view. Character defects that cause individuals to lose sight of that precious gift we call humanity. To be. To exist. To cherish existence in ourselves but maybe even more importantly, respecting it in others.

 

In a Florida warehouse where the temperatures reached over 100 degrees, we asked our employer for a water fountain. We received an igloo container filled with warm, tepid water that neither cooled nor refreshed from the heat. I would not treat someone that way, would you? This same employer arrogantly bragged that he was having our work done in Malaysia and paying those workers $5.00...a day. Was this showing humanity respect?

 

In Virginia, where a courageous Nurse Practitioner of 25 years became so incensed at the disrespect and lack of dignity by administrators towards Professional Registered Nurses, that she decided to devote her remaining years to guiding Nurses into the safe harbor of Unions. And yet these administrators continue to fight against the right of Nurses to join unions. Is this democracy in America?

 

In a Michigan Nursing Home where Nursing Assistants and Resident Care Aids care so much about their patients, yet their employer disrespects that care and dedication with excessive work loads, decreased staffing, less pay and decreased benefits. Can we honestly as a nation condone such abusive treatment of health care workers and patients?

 

In a Midwest office building where a widow with a young son, another a mother of eight children, dust and mop and clean, earning barely livable wages with no employer provided health insurance, paid holidays, or other benefits. And when that employer is asked about a raise, these extraordinary, gifted, precious souls are simply laughed at in their faces. Is this respect of the American worker? This same employer takes the position that if these workers don't like it, they can get out. But why should labor leave? It is management that's failing.

 

Yes, we need unions. As long as there are employers who maybe are just born that way: unable to perceive or understand this extraordinary gift we call humanity.

 

Labor Unions Embrace Democracy

 

Until then, in this wonderful America which nourishes and embraces democracy, the American worker must join with each other to herald that freedom from the bondage of tyranny in any form: whether from distant shores, from home-grown exploiters of the poor, from dysfunctional management personalities who gain workplace power.

 

Yes. For these Moms'. For their children. For the generations that come after them. Labor unions must be.

 

 

Internet resources:

 

Contact Author: Comments

 

Organize a Union: Organize

read this and say unions are bad..or perhaps you'll find a one sided opinionated attemp on your part to say nothing while trying to prove you know so much about so little as a union

[Rixirite]

I just plain don't like unions. They are radical about thier agenda and make all kinds of wealth without doing hard work. I have a job working at a local grocery store and it has no union and I don't need to make 12 dollars an hour because the kind of work I am doing is nothing special. Sorry if I offend anyone who is in the union of has a strong philosophy or agenda that supports unionism but to me unions are just a waste of money and time.

[phoneyLogic]

@psyclops

plz resize your pictures, it takes ages to load this very page ;)

oh and btw, modern solar plants dont heat the water with sunlight directly (this is nower days mostly used in single applications for 3rd world developement like water cleaning), modern ones create electricty by using the photoelectric effect (actually they do since the 60ties)

I see ^^, resized :P

 

But the solarthermie is a newer and the more efficient technologie for these areas. Just because of the higher Efficiency of a turbine compared to a solar cell plant (Photovoltaik).

- Sounds strange, but even Nuclear Reactors are boiling water to power steam turbines. -

 

So the best might be a mix of Solar Thermal Energy in desert areas, Geothermal power, Hydropower, Wind Power and solar cells on roofs.

 

 

@Rixirite

I don't see how Unions have such a bad influence to the american economics. It started way back in the middle of the 19th century and therefore they are a part of the American rise since WWI. And as you can see, most of other car producing countries have a much higher organization of trade union members than America. When you say that the American car industry is less competitive than others, then it is probably not the Unions fault.

[dezdimona]

I just plain don't like unions.

bravo!!! the truth wins out.You don't care how much money you make,good for you.Many people like to give their families the things they themselves never had! You don't understand a union yet you said you did,now it all boils down to just your own dislike of a way of people living a life thast better than their parents or at least an equal too.The rich and the poor in america are so far apart that the statistics of today are greater than in 1928. Who's reaping the benefit sir? the little guy or the corporate agenda person?

Take a look at the Federal reserve,nothing federal about it yet they have pumped trillions of dollars into our economy and no gold to back it up.They bailed out bank after bank and industry after industry.What pray tell did you reap from this other than your great grandchildren will inherit a debt load unlike any in history.

Hate the unions go ahead,I hate injustice and ignorance at the expense of every working person to provide for their families while bankers and corporations hand out millions in benefits to their CEO's. The sheep always follow the Judas goat to the slaughter.I prefer to live free and fight for everyones right to a decent wage and health care.Turn a blind eye if you must for in doing so you sow the ideal that its ok to live below the poverty level and care not.How much more shall the government or corporate america do for you before you succumb to worshiping at their feet?

 

I don't care..,I don't like..what a poor outlook on something that affects an entire nation, nay a world as a whole.

[Rixirite]

I just plain don't like unions.

bravo!!! the truth wins out.You don't care how much money you make,good for you.Many people like to give their families the things they themselves never had! You don't understand a union yet you said you did,now it all boils down to just your own dislike of a way of people living a life thast better than their parents or at least an equal too.How much more shall the government or corporate america do for you before you succumb to worshiping at their feet?

 

 

If I had a family with children I would greatly understand getting wealthy to be able to give and provide for my family for the things they want. The only issue is: How do you make that money? Think about America back then in the 50's how we had a living industry making cars and other things that America seems to make less of today. Look at the mnumber of factories in the US go down and watch those towns that were stimulated by the factory become impoverished. Then if you analyze how that happened you will learn that when the taxes went up and up over the years for companies they could no longer afford to pay for labor union/non-union at these factories thus having to move the factories to China where labor is dirt cheap at the expense of american jobs and industry. Some of these taxes were enviromental ones, some were simple corporate tax increases. So here you have GM and Ford along with all the smaller branches of car companies they own, and they are mostly comprised of union workers, add the amount of money the company has to give to the unions along with the money that has to go to government taxes makes it much harder for them to pay for other things. Then the companies go to the government for our taxpayer dollars which I work hard to make and it goes to these godforsaken people who don't realize they are part of the reason the company is going bankrupt!

 

Doesn't any of this make sense to you? There would be more labor in America if our government did not make it so difficult and expensive to have factories operating nation wide, there would be less unemployed people too.

[Vagrant0]

Doesn't any of this make sense to you? There would be more labor in America if our government did not make it so difficult and expensive to have factories operating nation wide, there would be less unemployed people too.

The exodus of industry from the US and unions have very little in common. Industry in the US has been failing simply because of corporate greed and cheap energy. Union or non-union shop, why would a company WANT to pay some US employee $8-14 an hour, for an 8 hour shift to construct a product when they can pay someone in China, Mexico, Africa, or South America less than $2.00 a day for the same product, ship hundreds of that product overseas for only a few cents for every unit, and still charge the same price for that product that they would charge if it was made by a US worker? Companies outsource labor to other countries because they can, and because it is often cheaper to do so. Once you realize that nobody in the US, union or non-union would be willing to work a 12 hour shift for $2.00 a day, it's fairly clear that union labor does not matter in this case. As already mentioned, the failure of the auto industry is because of poor business choices, not because of their employment structure. The failure of US industry in general is because of corporate greed, or atleast wanting to make cheaper products, not union or non-union labor. The salary between union and non-union employees in any field within the same country and economic area is relatively the same. The ONLY difference between union and non-union labor is that it is harder for a company to simply start cutting the salary of employees, or firing senior employees without requiring a reason and renegotiation. So far as I know, the UAW has actually been trying to work with car companies in order to prevent those companies from going under since neither they, nor the companies would benefit from the company collapse. No organization would willingly shoot itself in the foot if it could help it. Despite the rampant layoffs and decrease of hours, the UAW has not done anything so silly as strike... have they?

 

The bottom line is this:

You hate unions but you don't understand what they are, how they work, or what their purpose is, and don't seem interested in trying to learn how things really are.

 

You somehow get this impression that you are giving money to these unions. This is also not entirely true. You work in a grocery store for 12.00 an hour. Even if you are working 40-60 hour weeks, your yearly income is still low enough to where you get back any money you had withheld for income taxes. Meaning that your total contribution to taxes from your income is $0.00 annually. Meaning that the only money you actually pay into taxes is from sales taxes. For sales tax, there is a federal, a state, and in some cases a local sales tax. Meaning that only a very small amount of money even goes to the US government. Of that money, most goes to things like medicare, national parks, scholarships, grants, providing loans, highway maintenance, the military. Essentially, unless you are earning more than $60,000, you are probably losing more money from the hole in your pocket, or that vending machine that keeps eating your quarters than you are providing toward any of these bailouts.

 

Most of the money for the bailouts and the stimulus came from China. China loaned us money because, as you are probably somewhat aware, we import quite alot of goods from China. If the US economy died, so would the Chinese economy since they would have nobody else to sell their exports to. If the US economy died, the US would have to be charging more for its exports, such as food, lumber, and steel, which China is dependent on. And as you have stated, you refuse to buy anything from China, that means that even on that end of the cycle of money, your contribution to any sort of bailout is exceptionally small.

 

You are upset that a failing company got a bailout, but don't understand why they got that bailout, and assume that somehow it's the fault of the workers. That is like blaming a class of students for when their teacher goes out drinking and drives into a ditch. The students have no direct control for the actions of their teacher, and the class cannot exist without students. The employees of any company usually have no say in any of the decisions of that company, but are a necessary part of that company's operation.

 

You think you are earning more than you need because you don't have any bills, don't have any major expenses, and don't seem to know much about how the real world works. Be thankful you have a job first of all. Be thankful that you are earning more than your current expenses call for, meaning that you can probably start working on a savings account, and putting money away for college. Someone living on their own, earning the same amount, however, would be in an entirely different situation. When I was living in an apartment with a friend, my share of the rent was about $600 a month. To that I was spending about $200 a month on food, $60-120 on gasoline to get me around, $200 on insurance, $60 for a cell phone, and was going to school. And I was living in a fairly cheap area. My employment at the time was full time in a factory, 36-40 hours a week, $11 an hour. Meaning that after taxes withholding, 2 weeks worth went to rent, 2 weeks went to everything else, leaving me about $40-80 left over for "fun". My tax returns were spent on school. If I was on my own, or had a child to take care of, I simply would not have been able to survive on $11 or even $18 an hour. You don't understand how expensive living is yet, nor do you seem to understand that the cost of living can change greatly from one area to another, or based on who else you are needing to support, so are in no position to make statements as to what is fair for other people to earn. Be glad that you have more money than you know what to do with, enjoy it while it lasts, one of these days you will probably end up wishing you were earning the same thing for the same amount of work.