A neutral perspective on the Empire vs the Rebels.

[DefiledNH]

Let me start this off by saying this is NOT a random, uneducated opinion. I am very much familiar with the lore of most Elder Scrolls game, particularly Skyrim, in which I have over 1100 hours logged. I have done the civil war countless times, I have done every single radiant/non-radiant quest related to it. Personally, I favor the Empire, not because omgjerkjerkjerkswagswag. I have valid reasons, but I will put aside my personal opinions for the purpose of neutrality.

 

 

Let's start off with the Rebels, or as they call themselves, the "Stormcloaks".

 

The Stormcloaks of Skyrim

 

They are racist, yes. They despise the Aldmeri Dominion, so they hate Altmer, much like Germany after the Treaty at Versailles (there is no better way to explain this, read up on it). They feel the Empire has become slave to the Aldmeri Dominion, due to the White-Gold Concordat. They hated that Talos worship was outlawed and giving up a huge chunk of Hammerfell. They feel that Skyrim is their's, because they are Nords, and Skyrim was first inhabited, and is, therefore for the Nords. They want independence from the Empire.

 

Pros

 

=> They want to worship whatever gods they want. There is absolutely nothing wrong in this.

 

Cons

 

=> They are racist. Not to a little degree. To the point Argonians are tortured in cages. They are the Nord equivalent of the KKK. Even those born and raised in Skyrim, the dunmer for example are treated like s***.

 

=> Because of this, there is no diversity in the demographic.

 

=> The literal argument "first come first serve" to Skyrim.

 

 

Main point of debate

 

=> This should be a con, really. Ulfric defeated the High King, Torryg, in "fair" combat. Accoutns differ, Ulfric said he used the voice to knock the High King to the ground and them finished him off, others say he "shouted the High King to pieces", but one thing is certain. Ulfric used the Voice. While it may seem fair, since it's his ability, it is not the "Old Nord Way". The Old Nord Way dictates one-on-one combat, strictly without "tricks". The Voice can be debated to be magic of a sort, or not, or you could say it's his skill just as Torygg was a fine swordsman. This is crucial, because the base of The Rebellion is that they want Skyrim to be "as it once was", of Nord culture. This is the changing point in the morally right or wrong. Also, there was no moot to make Ulfric High King, for what it's worth.

 

 

The Imperials of Cyrodiil

 

They want to expand the Empire, especially after The Oblivion Crisis and Red Mountain. They were, for lack of a better word, raped at the Battle of the Red Ring. They made peace, signing the White-Gold Concordat.

 

 

Pros

 

=> Signing the White-Gold concordat was a necessary evil. Skyrim would have been over-run by the Aldmeri Dominion had the Imperials not enough time to gather their forces anyways.

 

=> They allow diversity in Skyrim. This is HUGE. Even in the modern world, only when cultures mingle do we avoid conflict and better ourselves, economically as well as personally.

 

=> They are not sexist. I am tired of hearing this argument. Women are not allowed to patrol cities. That is all. They advance to even the upper echelon in the legion itself. Take Legate Rikke, for example. Outside the Legion, there's Jarl Elisif.

 

=> Organized rule. It's what's better for Skyrim as a whole. On it's own, without the support the entire Legion behind it, they are far more secure against the Aldmeri Dominion. They wouldn't stand a chance otherwise.

 

 

Cons

 

=> Again, the White-Gold concordat. You don't get in a position like that without f***ing up. They lost. They had to survive. Also, the conditions are unjust, especially in that of Talos worship.

 

=> While necessary, it does not mean we should be happy about the Thalmor Embassy enjoying special privelege and upholding the concordat's conditions in Skyrim.

 

 

Main point of debate

 

Whether they have any right to force upon Skyrim that which it does not seem to want. Just because it's a much better from an economical, political and cultural standpoint does not mean it's right. The people get what the people want. This can be debated as to whether the people include all those who are native to Skyrim, or only the Nords, and even then it is unclear for the Legion also has many Nords. It can also be debated that you cannot count only the Nords for that is racist (see the Stormcloaks argument). This is rather stupid, as we're basically arguing whether they can have better stuff or not. But, it is only just if they want the better stuff.

Edited May 10, 2014 by DefiledNH

[avallanche]

There is no right side and that's the whole point of the civil war. The two sides have fair reasons to be fighting and their own problems, their own weakness.

The empire, while loosing the war and facing extermination, chose to conveniently abandon their provinces. What choice do they had?

The stormcloaks, after fight in the empire ranks for years, saw their country be put aside for foreign interests. Why should they accept that?

Its all set up so you have to choose the lesser of two evils. Exemple of that is the Jarl's options. To side with the Stormcloaks you have to exile one of the few good jarls of Skyrim and give Markarth to the Silver-bloods. To side with the empire you have give riften to Maiven and keep siddgeir as jarls.

So that opens room for roleplaying, giving you the option to make that decision based on the character you are playing, the races, the diferent paths you take, the morale of your char. There is no right side. The right side is the side that best suits your char.

[Lachdonin]

I gave up long ago the idea that there was a right and wrong side of the Civil War. There is only YOUR side. It's up to the player to decide whose arguments ring true with their own ethical standing. Both sides are just as right as they are wrong, so each individual has to decide what they believe in before they pick a side (or what their character believes in).

 

I think this was the genius of the concept, even if, like so many things in Skyrim, it's execution was lacklustre. This type of situation stirs emotions, and forces people to examine their own morals and priorities.

 

Yes, the Stormcloaks are introverts (i wouldn't call them racist as a body, though it does seem most of it's named members are) fanatics and rather short thinkers. But they are honest, proud and fighting to preserve what they believe to be their way of life.

 

Yes, the Imperials are totalitarian, manipulative bureaucrats who capitulated to a beaten foe. But at the same time, they're prone to playing the long game, have kept the peace for almost a thousand years and offer a far more progressive approach than practically anyone in Tamriel.

 

I know where i stand. But that doesn't matter to anyone else, unless they ask. I won't tell anyone that their stance on the Civil War is wrong. I only argue against poor reasoning, bad facts and the notion that there is a right answer.

[notmyhome]

Came to think, is the Empire valid anymore?

While I still think a supranational political and military organization is the only way that peache can be kept throughout Tamriel, I somehow came to doubt the capability of the new government to guarantee this.

While even under a Dragonborn ruler there's always been corruption, this has gotten out of hand under Mede. How else could you possibly explain Maven as a Jarl?

As for the Peace part, I stopped believing that when I realised the scope of the Argonian invasion of Morrowind, or the new sacking of Orsinium, or...

An organization that only works when preceded by a strong leader, and otherwise fails to keep its parts from fighting each other is not worthy of power.

The Third Empire of Men existed for 600 years and still never managed to bring the races together. As the Holy Roman Empire was only waiting for Napoleon to undo it, the Talos Empire will most likely be replaced soon enough.

[BrettM]

Came to think, is the Empire valid anymore?

I think this is the key question.

 

It appears that the Empire began crumbling with the end of the Septim dynasty. At that point the struggle for the throne, which took years to resolve, caused the Imperials to turn inwards and become consumed with the internal problems of Cyrodiil.

 

The provinces were left to fend for themselves, which is what allowed the Thalmor to take Elseweyr and Valenwood long before the Great War. Morrowind was also virtually abandoned during this time, as the Dunmer had no support from the Empire during their crises with the eruption and conflicts with the Argonians, and Solstheim was abandoned as well.

 

I have to question whether the Mede dynasty is really a continuation of the third empire or could actually be considered the fourth, following an interregnum shorter than usual. Either way, I don't see how the Empire can last much longer, particularly with the loss of Hammerfell. It would take a miracle (maybe a Dragon Break) to reverse the trend.

 

I believe the provinces had internal self rule under the Empire, so the Empire had no say in picking the jarls of Skyrim and probably no official say in the choice of the High King. Further, the jarl of a hold was answerable to the nobility of that hold, and the jarls of other holds had no say in the matter. The thrones of the holds only became a general political football because of the Civil War, and the only issue for either side was in choosing someone of trusted loyalty with sufficient rank. The integrity, the intelligence, or even the sanity of a candidate was not of concern to either Ulfric or Tullius. So Maven wasn't chosen because the Empire was corrupt but because she pledged her support.

[Kraeten]

Cons

 

=> They are racist. Not to a little degree. To the point Argonians are tortured in cages. They are the Nord equivalent of the KKK. Even those born and raised in Skyrim, the dunmer for example are treated like s***.

 

=> Because of this, there is no diversity in the demographic.

 

=> The literal argument "first come first serve" to Skyrim.

 

Argonians tortured in cages? Where are you getting this idea? The only ones doing the torturing are the Imperials and the Thalmor. Argonians WERE tortured and killed by the Count and Countess of Bravil in TES Oblivion though, so maybe you're misremembering?

 

As for diversity you'll find plenty of dunmer, altmer and argonians in Stormcloak controlled cities. In Windhelm alone, there is an Altmer general goods merchant and an Altmer owns the stables. An Argonian owns the Riften Inn as well. The argument that Stormcloaks are racist doesn't really hold water. At worst, the Stormcloaks might refuse to protect Khajiit caravans from bandits. That does deserves condemnation mind you, but it's hardly as bad as the Dunmer enslaving the Argonians, among others, for ages.

[Lachdonin]

 

It appears that the Empire began crumbling with the end of the Septim dynasty. At that point the struggle for the throne, which took years to resolve, caused the Imperials to turn inwards and become consumed with the internal problems of Cyrodiil.

 

 

The Empire has actually been 'falling' since it began. Numerous inter-provincial wars, revolts and horrible rulers marked most of the Septim dynasty. Uriel VII's reign in particular was one disaster after another.

 

In fact, by and large the Mede dynasty has been more stable, for a longer period than the Septims ever managed.