Is The Goverment Spying On Us ?

[Retribution]

Because the majority of people in this forum are Americans.

Perhaps in this forum although in my personal experience I've bumped into an equal amount of non-americans, it was however a comment on every damn forum I've been too.

While this is true, in this case, it's mostly because Americans are always paranoid about mysterious people sitting out in a truck across the street listening to them. So much so that it's a common trope. Blame this on all the conspiracy nuts out there, most of them being American, with their blogs. The people who have the least to be concerned about on this matter are often the first to assume it's being done to them, and that EVERYONE is in on it. It's just a natural connection between paranoid wack-jobs and Americans. Not quite sure why, maybe it's because our nuts are allowed to roam free and distribute their "revelations" to the masses, or maybe it's because people from other countries have more sense than to openly discuss their suspicions about being watched in fear that it might actually lead to them being watched.

Or maybe the ones doing it in other countries have already disappeared.

[phoneyLogic]

at least we don't have to suffer FBI as much as you do

Erm, who's suffering exactly? Only the paranoid ones seem to be inconvenienced by it, and that kinda goes along with them being paranoid. Most of us simply don't care, and have no specific reason to.

It's absolutely pointless to throw a word in like paranoia.

 

Why? Let me explain.

I lived in the GDR.

They actually realised a big brother scenario, this is fact. And in fact everyone has been spied. So ... did I feel spied? No, never, not one minute. Yes, I never felt spied and I never knew about it. I actually can vote for the subject like this then and today: I don't feel spied.

 

Well the MfS manageged to work in secret and I felt extremly comfortable.

So does that mean that everything they did was right? You seems to imply this.

 

You say: "I have no reason to care, because I feel comfortable". The same time other people get kidnaped and tortured by your Central Intelligence Agency (not the FBI) all over the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cia_torture .

 

This is a proofen fact and proofen facts do have nothing in common with paranoia. So to answer the question about who's suffering exactly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

 

Again, this are proofen facts and no conspiracy theories. Your CIA needs our attention, even if we feel save and comfortable.

[jaysus]

be careul with the guantanamo thing tho... its a more complicated matter than bbc or the red cross make us believe... just talked with a guzy from the QRTS or whatever they were called lol who was there and it really is not as easy as we seem to believe... many of those set free due to red cross interventions were captured a few days later again fighting the us forces, however as i said its not easy to say its good or bad in an objective way, one must probably go there themselves and see what up...

hoiwever im totally against unjust extraditions without any legal consent, however if youre nto allowed to kill those you capture trying to kill you you must put em somewhere safe and the afghan jails for example are a lil bit more notorious for being torture prisons than is quantanamo, hence its a double edged sword, either commit a warcrime and kill surrendering forces, put em in a torture jail, set em free or deport em... not many options here honestly...

no question however that there are probably some innocents in there likein every other prison in the world...

 

but ya the cia is a bunch of wackos indeed lol... was fun being assumed to be a terrorist out to kidnap my guestfamilies girls when i was in egypt by some cia contractors who drive through the streets with mp5s and poo doing whatever they do, like stopping taxis with tourists and putting fear in their hearts :D

well lets say i assume they were cia contractors as egypt basicly gives a damn about terrorists and likes em to get generated or my buddy from alexandria wouldnt be in jail due to his blog attacking a university notorious for creating them...

 

what i wanna say is that you may not feel the whole effects of government spying if you just stay in your shack somewhere in idaho and pay your taxes regulary without ever objecting to the government or its officials...

you could even live quite well in the GDR if you were in "the party" and did what they wanted you to do, but god beware you did object their ways...

[Balagor]

In Denmark we have this special kind of surveilance, called "reporting"

We have a problem with independent workers like, carpenters, plumbers, bricklayers, etc.

"forgetting" to write a bill, and thus "forgetting" VAT and TAX.

I am independent myself, and I can not agree with undeclared money.

The size of taxes is probably the most discussed subject around any dinner tables through out the world,

but yet, we can not build a society by cheating.

 

That is why our goverment has incouraged the population to "report" if they have knowledge

about such "no bill" working.

They would like neibours to look around and sneak, even listen in your family (if uncle Bob shows off with undeclared money)

and so on.

 

I find this kind of surveilance rather distastefull. It is a very delicate subject.

True I don´t like undeclared money, it can even outcompite my buisness.

But making the population working as spies, remind me of the STASI methods in GDR.

Problem is, people here like the idea. Many reports their own neibour, and as I see it

perhaps because they had some nebour struggle going on allready, and now the goverment

just provides another weapon.

[desperado2008]

CIA has no authority operating in US, those who are watching american citizens are definitely FBI.

[jaysus]

well but you think that they actually give a damn? the fbi is operating in japan for example or in euroopean harbours... its not hard to assume the CIA does the same and works wherever it wants...

 

@balagor

mmh, that really sounds nasty... indeed like good ol GDR... but then doesnt every country have such laws? over here for example i become guilty if i see someone smoke a joint and dont report them, accessory to a crime its called and most countries have it anyway... do they give you an incent to "spy" xcept you not becoming a criminal?

 

taxes are a whole topic on itself anyway lol, i for one dont see the government spending them on ANYTHING useful at all xcept maybe the social services maybe which they slim each year... no clue where all that money goes actually, i assume to support banks and such... like the glorious 500million we just gave em as a bday present or to build a 6 track trainstation for 300million for a private company... well dunno, id rather have liked to see have that money go somewhere where it makes sense... i dont know why we for example our govs put 100s of millions into a bank which basicly enslaves all of us but on the other hand we struggle to agree to send 300k to a nation which just got hit by an earthquake or similiar disaster...

furthermore do i not know how it is in denmark or the us but over here in germany the tax system is so utterly screwed that you need to spend about 60% of your work time just writing bills and filling out forms for the financial ministry,

another thing are "retroactive advance payments" (lol dont ask me... kinda paradox aint it?) where you have to pay the tax for the next year dependant on what you earned 2yrs back, the funny thing is that often you had a good year where you made tons of cash and suddenly two years later you make less but you have to pay as much as you made 2yrs ago, this nice system has yet destroyed quite some companies which would otherwise have flourished,

of course its not utterly insane to have such a system but why make it so complicated at all? heck even the officials supposed to enforce the taxes most of the time have no clue what is actually going on or what you have to do... one of the best money making businesses in germany is that of the tax/financial advisor afterall... crazy system lol...

[Balagor]

@jaysus

Yes, I am aware that if I see a crime I have to report it.

If I witness a robbery in a bank, or someting like it,

there shall be no doubt that I will report/ help with testamony etc.

Even if it was a friend or family member.

 

However the reason why I say this is a delicate subject, is that

the goverment wants the population to be active, and do some dirty work.

Also there is (in my opinion) difference in the crime committed.

I will report, even help against robbers, violaters, but do I

see someone driving too fast, I don´t care, unless it´s on a small

suburb street with children playing.

 

@desperado2008

Both CIA and FBI were caught with their finger in the "cookiecan" on Greeland, DK territory,

and also landed for fuel tanking on Iceland with a plane containing captives.

They have a "wide jurisdiction"

[desperado2008]

@Balagor

then what about "national sovereighty"? I mean, does it violate sovereighty of Denmark?

I read a book named "postmodern war" which talks about such things.

[Balagor]

@desperado2008

Yes, it started a lot of quarrel between US and DK diplomates,

and minestry of foreign affairs.

But the hole affair was kept away from public, so we only know

very little. Only what leaks to certain journalists.

Even my goverment gave the issue a stamp of "classified",

wich they said was best for "national security", wich

again could mean that they knew, and that they approved.

[Vagrant0]

And my response was directed specifically toward this comment:

so you say, I don't even give a damn

I am happy i'm not an american citizen so that i don't have to obey american laws.

campared to US, my country is simply a paradise and I love her, at least we don't have to suffer FBI as much as you do

I don't know anything about the GDR, and given that it acted while the country was under communist/totalitarian rule, I don't doubt that much of what you say actually went on. For other countries, particularly those who have a democratic government and freedoms granted by their constitutions however, it should only be a concern if the person is doing something specifically against their own government. Irregardless, if a government is spending the resources spying on all their citizens, it is just a sheer waste of resources. Sure, it can still be done, but it always ends up causing more harm than good. Furthermore, if you are being watched by your government, there really isn't a whole hell of alot you can do about it other than deciding that maybe it's not a good idea to stage an act of destructive defiance.

 

As far as those sitting in Gitmo, it's not my problem (cue the Anti-American hate). While I don't doubt that there are some who were taken without true cause, it was all done under the watch of the last administration who, to put it simply, screwed up at about every turn. I am not personally empowered to do anything about this, and most of the records relating to why people were captured as enemy combatants are not open to the public, so even if it was my problem, there's not a damn thing I, or any American citizen can do about it. You seem to think that we all happen to have the president's number on our cellphone, or atleast know our member of congress/parliament personally. That just isn't the case, and even if we did, the only response we would get is some bureaucratic nonesense and claims of re-assurance. The only consolation is that many of those who were captured will be tried in civilian courts.

 

As for the CIA, you seem to misunderstand how limited they are when acting on anything. They cannot do anything within a country without permission from that country's government. Although this restriction isn't as much an issue when the country is in the middle of turmoil, or without any official government, they are still always acting in cooperation with local authorities. Although they might employ torture techniques, the problem is that all torture techniques fail horribly when trying to gather reliable information. A person will say just about anything to make the pain stop. But yes, we're in agreement, it's something that should be stopped, but the reality is that it probably won't, anywhere. It is extremely ignorant to suggest that the CIA is the only agency who does these things. The only difference is that in the US, information about the act gets leaked and there are a dozen lawyers and activist groups jumping to bring the case to light.