Is The Goverment Spying On Us ?

[desperado2008]

@Vagrant0

you are an american patriot, i can see that, don't be upset.

anyhow people elsewhere have no obligations to make judgement as you wish, they are loyal to their own country and view things with their own mind.

that's it.

[rebalious]

Patriotic, but not paranoid. He also puts up better arguments than me, also why should he be upset about liking his bit of land?

 

It is extremely ignorant to suggest that the CIA is the only agency who does these things

MI5 and 6 springs to mind, not the torture itself, but subterfuge. Not big on torture over here, just letting other countries do it to "preserve special relations".

 

Also if teens can hack into your military websites to look for UFO data, I don't think its likely they could keep tabs on everyone and not have it known about. Unless of course they have an army of Altairs' and Ezios'.

 

_{Vagrant0 they must know think we're government talent agents, whats our exit plan?} 8)

[jaysus]

@vagrant

 

regarding the GDR's MfS or STASI as its known, google a bit... what has been said so far is nothing but the truth, i wish it wasnt

you probably have no clue what the (damn i wanna say the f word goddamnit!) went on in the ruskie occupied zones and you should be thankful i guess...

 

however saying that is was a totaliterian regime is not quite right, as i said before we had elections and all that stuff... GDR stands for german democratic republic afterall... but then again, there was more or less only one party lol... well you guys have 2... WOOT! what a choice ;) (ok maybe more but the others are basicly non existant and actually it doesnt matter who you vote for as all of them are puppets of the FED shareholders anyway... gah hefferson would go wild i guess... but well that the same doh over here...)

 

and yes its true that other secret services do the same crap as the cia (mossad comes to mind here and its killing sprees) but then no other secret service is that big and acts in so many places, hence its of course more likely that their deeds will eventuall surface, not because you have such an open and well informed population necessarily

 

if spying on all citozens is bad depends on your state of mind, if you are paranoid you better do so, if you need the info to filter for commies for example its also useful (carter and hoover anyone?)

sally the guys who employ that usually are wickedly mad and really have other things on their mind that the good of all

 

also constitutions...

you can be lucky that yours still stands and the gov simply gives a damn about the lil commentary snippets at the side (my jefferson remarks), however in germany for example our so called constitution (which actually is none as it never was legitimatized and the article about "the german people shall agree upon a common constituion once theyre ready" was simply capped by now without a public agreement) was heavily modified after Mrs "Piggy" Merkel came to power, modified in a way that every damn article becomes obsolete meaning every word can be countered and becomes void, other articles were completely scrapped like our equivalent of the 4th amendment, all that happened without anyone noticing, i just rescently found out when i wanted to look somin up and went on the official government homepage, to my shock its was a totally different text than the one i got a few years back when i finished school which was still the one the allies "gave" us after the war...

 

i also agree that torture does not work, however quite a lot of rulers employ it, including cia buddies like egypt, turkey and others, probably out of sheer frustration since their spying techniques dont work

 

its also true that the cia has to request permission to work on foreign soil however they definately wont do so all the time, or at least not show their true intentions or what they really do or the whole concept of a secret service would be void, you cant really spy on a foreign government if you have to ask em if youre allowed to, now can you?

 

as for QTMAO, well i honestly think that it is YOUR duty to make things right if your government fails to do so, i dont wanna say that you need to free all prisoners but if there is info which makes you believe that your government acts illegaly and against the best interests of your nation shouldnt you according to the 4th do somin about it? (jefferson again :P... love that guy...) at least as a patriot or someone who worships the constitution that would be your duty in my eyes...

[Vagrant0]

@Vagrant0

you are an american patriot, i can see that, don't be upset.

Wouldn't go that far seeing as how my main supporting reasoning behind this sort of thing not happening is due to how I feel my own government is too incompetent, corrupt, and infested with lawyers and special interest groups to have any chance of being anything more than a vast waste of time and resources. For a country that takes 9 months to argue about an issue, eventually deciding that they need to scrap it and start over using the same exact approach that led them to that 9 month standoff, I'm frankly surprised that they even know how to, and accomplish changing the lightbulbs in the capital building (maybe they outsource that too).

 

@jaysus Cuba and North Korea, and many parts of Africa are "democracies" too, that doesn't necessarily mean that the people of that country have any particular amount of freedom, or aren't ruled over by a military that makes their own rules. I would however suspect that the vast majority of people using this site don't live in a society where they can be shot/beaten/jailed for speaking out of turn, or simply at the whim of whatever authority happens to be around. And that's kinda the difference. I'm sure that some governments still spy on their people, but if anyone here was living in one of those countries, they probably wouldn't be posting here.

 

As for the topic, what it really boils down to is a simple question... Are you REALLY important enough for your government to even care about your day to day activities? Are you really sure that you want to make the argument that you are important enough, or that you are on to them? If the answer is yes for either one then I think you have a problem larger than trying to win a debate on a gaming forum, and have every reason to be concerned. If the answer is no, then chances are that you are simply being paranoid or are looking for problems.

[rebalious]

Wouldn't go that far seeing as how my main supporting reasoning behind this sort of thing not happening is due to how I feel my own government is too incompetent, corrupt, and infested with lawyers and special interest groups to have any chance of being anything more than a vast waste of time and resources. For a country that takes 9 months to argue about an issue, eventually deciding that they need to scrap it and start over using the same exact approach that led them to that 9 month standoff, I'm frankly surprised that they even know how to, and accomplish changing the lightbulbs in the capital building (maybe they outsource that too).

 

@jaysus Cuba and North Korea, and many parts of Africa are "democracies" too, that doesn't necessarily mean that the people of that country have any particular amount of freedom, or aren't ruled over by a military that makes their own rules. I would however suspect that the vast majority of people using this site don't live in a society where they can be shot/beaten/jailed for speaking out of turn, or simply at the whim of whatever authority happens to be around. And that's kinda the difference. I'm sure that some governments still spy on their people, but if anyone here was living in one of those countries, they probably wouldn't be posting here.

 

As for the topic, what it really boils down to is a simple question... Are you REALLY important enough for your government to even care about your day to day activities? Are you really sure that you want to make the argument that you are important enough, or that you are on to them? If the answer is yes for either one then I think you have a problem larger than trying to win a debate on a gaming forum, and have every reason to be concerned. If the answer is no, then chances are that you are simply being paranoid or are looking for problems.

 

I agree with pretty much everything stated here, couldn't really put it better myself. Also British goverment is equally inept although perhaps not quite as corrupt.

 

Cuba and North Korea, and many parts of Africa are "democracies" too, that doesn't necessarily mean that the people of that country have any particular amount of freedom, or aren't ruled over by a military that makes their own rules.

Hmm anyone go to TVtropes? People's Republic Of Tyranny

Sir Humphrey: East Yemen, isn't that a democracy?

Permanent Secretary of the Foreign Office: Its full name is the Peoples' Democratic Republic of East Yemen.

Sir Humphrey: Ah I see, so it's a communist dictatorship.

[phoneyLogic]

[...] so even if it was my problem, there's not a damn thing I, or any American citizen can do about it. You seem to think that we all happen to have the president's number on our cellphone, or atleast know our member of congress/parliament personally. That just isn't the case, and even if we did, the only response we would get is some bureaucratic nonesense and claims of re-assurance.

I see, I thought you had some kind of voice or sth... But if you say that your goverment is ignoring you completely. And if you'd try to talk to somebody, they only would fool you, than you seems to have a weak and helples position at all. :unsure:

I don't know much about the laws in the USA. So maybe it is a dump question...

Is torturing people legal in the USA?

[Vagrant0]

I don't know much about the laws in the USA. So maybe it is a dump question...

Is torturing people legal in the USA?

It's about the same as most anywhere... Not legal if you get caught or the person complains.

[rebalious]

I see, I thought you had some kind of voice or sth... But if you say that your goverment is ignoring you completely.

Thats western democracy for you, elected by the people to ignore the people, in exchange for cheques.

 

@Vagrant. Can't that be said of all crime? Talk about dodging a question. Did Obama close Guantanamo Bay? I know he sent an order in december about releasing/moving prisoners.

[jaysus]

well for me its simply a general question, i dont like to be spied upon, maybe due to my and my families history with that issue and government arbitrariness dealing with the gathered information

 

(btw i dont think i can fight anything in here, i more or less post cause im bored right now lol, but well maybe someone will read it and even without noticing will become a better person or more understanding, changing the world in a small way at least hehe :P.... well i can hope now can i?)

 

as for not getting jailed in the "more real" democracies (more real since they aint true democracies in any way either but as you said a lil bit better than some others) it really depends, in germany we dont have a jury for example in law suits, the judge decides your fate and i experienced it myself that saying the right words wether honest or full of lies to save your own skin can either send you to jail for minor offences like smoking a bliff or punching some sucker in the face in self defence or set you free,

the sentences widely varies, i know people who spent two weeks in jail for having one joint on them and others who walked free with 4kg weed and a shopping bag full of pills (some thousand fit in there) just because they either were well connected or knew the right words.

sure this is not directly conncted to spying on ones citizens but spying only brings more people in contact and under the will/power/control of a system that is terribly flawed in how justice is dealt and i doubt germany is the only country with a screwed justice system...

if we would live in an ideal world where everyone can do what he wants as long as he doesnt screw with someone else's life i wouldnt have to worry about such an issue but since even those that should be objective are only humans with a subjective point of view on events and circumstances this will probably never be the case... you simply can not trust in mankind's will to do good and live faithfully (not in a religious sense necessarily)

 

yes, it makes me sad to say so as i sincerely would wish it would be otherwise but until now i did not find a solution to that fundamental problem or human intolerance and disrespect towards other lifestyles and behaviors

[phoneyLogic]

[...]I know people who spent two weeks in jail for having one joint on them and others who walked free with 4kg weed and a shopping bag full of pills (some thousand fit in there) just because they either were well connected or knew the right words

I seriously doupt that.

Here in Germany only a judge is able to set one in jail. ( OK, this only applies for German Citicens people who came illegal, will be arrestet instantly ). But you only get arrested if there is a serious reason for.

So the judge has to decide if you get jailed or not (it's a must). And only because of a joint, you'll never get arrested. You wont even see a judge. Whatever these guys told you, it cant be the whole story ;).