Mmorpgs And Why They Suck...

[Peregrine]

After getting into EVE-Online, I've had to change my opinion of MMORPGs. I'm finally forced to concede that the concept of MMORPGs is fine, it's just the execution of that concept that needs work. The problem is lazy developers copying the same flawed formula over and over again, instead of trying for real innovation. The mistakes they keep repeating:

 

1) A completely static world: In WoW, for example, your clan might make a 40-person raid on a high-leve dungeon, and kill an epic boss. But what happens, after you pick up the loot? Everything resets to exactly the way it was before, and you do it all over again the next night. And the next, and the next... there's no sense of accomplishment. You can never actually change the world, no matter how important the game tells you a quest is. The entire concept of the persistent world is defeated, because nothing ever matters. You wouldn't notice any difference if you just played a game like Diablo II with random map generation and a new world every time you connect.

 

Compare this to a 40-person fleet raid in EVE. That large raid might cripple your enemy's (and that enemy is a player-run alliance, not some NPC) cruiser production station, giving your side an advantage in battles for the near future while they try to set up a replacement. And your side would gain control of the system, to do whatever you want with it. Now there's a real sense of accomplishment, you've actually done something to change the game world.

 

2) PvP is just deathmatch: Similar to point #1, in a typical MMORPG, what purpose does PvP serve? What point is there, besides having +1 to your personal score? If you kill an enemy, what happens... do you get their territory? Do you inconvenience them at all? Or do you just force them to respawn and lose a few minutes of time running back to their corpse?

 

3) There is too heavy a focus on endgame content: One of my friends tried to justify WoW by saying it gets fun when you hit level 60. Yes, after spending countless hours power-leveling through boring gameplay, you finally get to do something fun. This is completely absurd. The idea of developing a character over time should have more of a point than "rush to level 60 as fast as possible."

 

Especially when even slightly lower-level characters aren't anywhere near good enough to be useful. You have to make it all the way to the top to join the fun. A level 50 isn't almost as good as a level 60, it would be suicide for them to join the high-end content and no party would let them anyway!

 

Again, compare this to EVE. Obviously, you need to take some time with NPC missions and build up your character, but you get into things much faster. All ship classes are useful, not just the skill-demanding battleships. A relative newbie can still contribute to endgame PvP fighting, or in any other aspect of the game. Sure, their frigate might not have much damage to hurt an enemy battleship, but its speed and small size lets it dodge the battleship's fire, meanwhile its electronic warfare systems open the target to destruction by its companions in the fleet.

 

The clear proof of this is that veteran players, with the skills and money to fly any ship in the game, STILL use the "low-level" ships. Not just to show off, but because those ships fill the role they wish to use.

4) The experience point system is completely absurd: In most MMORPGs, you're forced into mindless and repetitive experience runs to advance your character. You're stuck killing the one appropriate monster that gives you the best experience per second, over and over again. Is this really fun?

 

And just to make it worse, it forces you to devote massive amounts of time to those mindless runs to avoid falling behind. Do you want to go on a date with your girlfriend? Or have a social life/school/etc in general? Too bad for you, your WoW character won't be getting anywhere. The system punishes casual gamers who don't have the time or desire to devote countless hours to boring power-leveling.

 

How does EVE fix it? By simply scrapping the entire concept completely. Skills advance automatically, with a set amount of real-world time required to train them. It doesn't matter how you spend your time in the game, or if you even log in at all. Your skills will still advance at the same rate. For example, right now I'm training my Caldari Frigate skill to level 5, to allow my character to fly the elite advanced-tech frigates. It's about a two-week training time. I could go hunt NPC pirates, fight a PvP war, afk-mine, or even just keep writing this post and it will still be done at the exact same time.

 

See the benefit? Now not only can I focus on what areas of the game are the most fun instead of which ones give the best experience, but I'm not forced into a choice between the game and every other part of my life.

 

5) Random item drops are completely absurd: You know the story, that powerful rare item you want has a .000001% chance to drop from a specific boss, so you farm that boss endlessly until you get it. Or just an item you can trade for it. See a problem with this? Like power-leveling, you're forced into specific (and almost always boring and repetitive) areas of the game to get your wealth.

 

Eve's solution: random item drops are still there to salvage, but they're only half of the market. Every item in the game can be (and is) manufactured by player-run corporations. So no more boss runs for items, you just get your money (through whatever methods) and buy it.

6) Balance is often horrible: It pretty much explains itself, balance issues are common. And it's made even worse by the focus on power-leveling and boss runs. Since you're forced into specific areas of the game, you're also forced into specific character builds optimized for them. So character and gameplay variety are severly cut, and you have hordes of people playing exactly identical characters.

 

 

 

So seeing how EVE fixes a lot of these issues, it's clear that it's possible to make an MMORPG that avoids them. But developers are lazy, and it's easy for Blizzard to stick the Warcraft name on yet another generic MMORPG and collect the profits than to spend lots of effort making a better game.

[hybrid_snyper]

I couldnt agree more. Ive been playing EVE on and off for a while, well its been a few months since ive managed to give it some quality time. I love how its so different, for example, I tried playing Star Wars and I got so bored with it straight away. Being sent on a mission to kill some NPC fighting all the way to this NPC only to find a queue of people wanting to fight the same NPC. Whats the point in same enemy reappearing after hes dead, nothing realistic about that.

 

However it is the opposite on EVE, I decided to go on my own to some 0.4 system and try my luck mining some rare ores, only to be chased by some player controlled pirate, getting straight on to my corp and telling them of my plight, and after some you stupid idiot, my corp arrived and that pirate was chased off to fight another day. If we had destroyed his ship that would have been it and the balance within a system would be changed instantly. His death would have allowed others to grow with known that there was one less pirate about.

 

This is how all MMORPG should be, this reappearing boss thing is rubbish and makes these games kind of feel like a single player game, where everyone shares the same experiences. I dont want to know that everyone killed the same beast i want to know i killed him and no one else can therefore it was me that saved a system (i know thats a bit extreme saving a system but you know what i mean)

 

Hybrid_Snyper

[loveme4whoiam]

Agree with you on every single issue Peregrine. I was an avid player of EVE for about 7 months, even co-started my own corporation, but then I quit my job and had no money to fuel my addiction. I've upheld it as the best example of how MMORPGs should be donefor ages, and completely agree that it is developer laziness that more games are not like this.

 

The persistent and ever-changing world of EVE is by far its greatest achievement - you are both right about the impact a single encounter a battle can have for so many players. My own anecdote of this was when I discovered a safe route through to a 0.2 asteroid belt with some damn rare minerals (apologies, can't remember the system :)). After about a week of getting rich off this system, some pirate corp began building a POS in-system and the caught me at the gate and pummelled me silly. So after I died I dialled up my corp and went after their POS. We ended up in a war for 6 weeks, with a total of six corps fighting on the two sides. Hundreds of players were involved, and in the end (we won :B) the balance of power in the area shifted to us. Stuff like that just doesn't happen in any other game.

 

I have slight hopes for Stargate Worlds - if they copy the EVE model it'll be a fantastic game.

[hybrid_snyper]

So after I died I dialled up my corp and went after their POS. We ended up in a war for 6 weeks, with a total of six corps fighting on the two sides. Hundreds of players were involved, and in the end (we won :B) the balance of power in the area shifted to us. Stuff like that just doesn't happen in any other game.

 

I have slight hopes for Stargate Worlds - if they copy the EVE model it'll be a fantastic game.

 

I know this is what makes a game exciting know that I/we did that and because of that, the game will never be the same. would have like to of been there it would have been a nice sight to watch.

 

Totaly off topic but do many folk use teamspeak or anything like that on EVE, couldnt think of any other way to coordinate large scale assaults

[loveme4whoiam]

We ended up getting a small TS server, but only for the duration of a couple of wars since we didn't use it all that much the rest of the time.

 

And yeah, it was something pretty cool to see. I wish I still had some of the FRAPS videos I had but I lost it all when I changed PCs.

[Ramengelion]

I know what you are saying, and it is the reason I usually do not play MMORPGs. A AMAZING game to play if you like the EVE style of MMO is Face of Mankind. There are NO NPCs and it makes a real society. People turn out like people, and it is extremely balanced. I'd give it a shot if you have the cash.

[suzerain]

I told you all this 2 years ago. :D

 

Eve is spectacular design, because, above all else, it breaks all the "rules" of MMO gaming.

 

Peregrine has covered most of the points very well, but I'd just like to throw in a few points from my own experiences, as the co-director of a corporation, having worked accross the board from high sec to low sec.

 

 

 

Eve's world is a truly dynamic enviroment. the players have been set loose in what is effectively a sandpit, to do whatever they like. you can go dig over in the corner, and mine away and get stuff to make things for players. you can go and build your own sandcastle in the corner. You can go knock someone else's sandcastle down....

 

 

Every other mmo is the player being a hero... except that so is the identical hero behind you... and the one behind him, and so on... lined up to complete the quest of Phnarg and rescue the maiden of Voluptua from the dragon af Sproing.

In eve, you can be the hero. or the villain. or... you can be no-body - another cog in the machine for a corporation working together to produce goods for sale, another miner, another mission runner... another pirate.

 

I'll tell a little story that shows the scope of what the real heroes and villains of eve can pull off , however.

 

a few years back, there was a small but feared group called The Guiding Hand Social Corp, and the leader, Istavaan Shogettsu (sp?). Istavaan moved to the Ubiquita Seraph corporation, and slowly rose through their ranks to become a director with immense responsibilities. he persuaded the CEO to perform a show of force through a system, in aimmensely valuable Navy Issue Apocalypse battleship, the sort of ship most pilots could only dream of, while he flew alongside, in an even more powerful, almost unique Imperial Apocalypse - an almost unique ship.

the show of force was a trap. unbenownst to the CEO of Ubiquita Seraph, GHSC had a mercenary commission to destroy the corporation, and this they had spent almost a year building toward. At one word from Istvaan, a trap was sprung, Istavaan locking, scrambling, and opening fire on the CEO as a select kill team warped to his aid. Meanwhile, at a single word, a dozen covert operatives emptied the corporation's assets - billions of ISK of assets, from unique blueprints, to ships and modules. months, years of effort, sabotaged in one fell swoop. The Navy Apocalypse collapsed under the weight of fire, and the CEO's escape pod destroyed.

 

The incident caused ripples through EVE - GHSC was villified and lauded in equal measure, the truth of the mercenary contract was discovered, wars were declades, and alliances rose and fell in the wake of the massive betrayal.

 

from the major players, to the smallest minions. All driven by players, economical and military warfare that shaped the face of the galaxy. and all in a day's gameplay in Eve.

 

Compare the scale, the audacity of such an event, with being one in the line of "heroes" to defeat a computer-created monster, to get the praise of a single NPC.

 

 

 

 

PVP in eve is merciless. you work to build your ships. when I first joined eve, battleships were incredibly rare, to gain one, the result of months of work - and we slowly built up our fleets - cruisers, and finally battleships, and each BS could take a month to mine for, for 2 players working as a team. it's a *lot* easier nowadays but back then, it was a hard work. and when you entered into a battle, you were risking all the effort, for if you died... you lose everything .

 

In no other game, have I ever shaken with adrenaline as much as when I've been in a corp fleet, warping enmasse to a contact in a HAC, launchers alreay primed to fire on the enemy the second lock is acheived, knowing he or she is in exactly the same position, and perhaps, has a better, tougher armour tank, or a better damage setup, and 1/4 of a billion ISK of elite assault ship could conceivably be called on primary target and ripped apart in seconds.

 

I can honestly say that there's only two things that've given me a bigger rush. one of those is racing a mountain bike and descending a firetrail at 70mph. the other tends to involve pretty girls, rubber, fishnets and beds, if you get my meaning. When you get the same buzz off a computer game, you know they've got it right.

 

 

Eve is'nt perfect. it's slow, harsh and demands patience - it's not a game that let's you go up levels by grinding, or feeds you information... but it is, possibly, one of the best designed games on the planet.

 

I've been following Eve as a player, and on their forums since late 2000, since it was first announced. The Kali upgrade has announced a new graphics engine that will give it another six years of life. I can see myself still flying my beloved interceptors or HACs in 2010 - perhaps even my own titan in 0.0, for all I know, with 80million skill points to my name. and I can't say that for any other computergame.

[Peregrine]

Thanks for posting the story... I'd heard about him, but never seen the details of it. And for you non-players, this guy is STILL a legend for what he's done. Lets see that kind of epic accomplisment in WoW...

 

 

 

By the way Suzerain, looking for a new corp member? I'm finally getting to the point where I can fly some decent stuff, and learning the game fairly well, so it's about time to start hunting for a corporation to join. And considering my intent to focus on cover ops ships and command battlecruisers, having a good group to play with is pretty essential.

[suzerain]

Thanks for posting the story... I'd heard about him, but never seen the details of it. And for you non-players, this guy is STILL a legend for what he's done. Lets see that kind of epic accomplisment in WoW...

 

 

 

By the way Suzerain, looking for a new corp member? I'm finally getting to the point where I can fly some decent stuff, and learning the game fairly well, so it's about time to start hunting for a corporation to join. And considering my intent to focus on cover ops ships and command battlecruisers, having a good group to play with is pretty essential.

 

 

mmm. Nighthawk and Rook. Nice machines. I use 'em both regularly.

 

there's a lot of other stories I could tell. Masters of Ownage (MoO) and when they camped secure space in Misha, and the devs had to add sentries in..., Drunkenmaster, TankCEO, Istavaan, Omber Zombie and the Eve-University. Goonwaffe's first frigate fleet going battleship hunting, Size from Tribal Souls taking on a pair of Red Alliance dreadnaughts in a Crow, and living to tell the tale, the Serpentis Titan theft (I was there, in a buzzard, giving intel against 5ive) Eve-radio's old racing events - I won over half a billion isk in my early career as a racer, even defeated some of the Caldari Colossus champions... Taking out a Apoc solo in a taranis, being one of the first pilots to break the 8km/s barrier in the single mwd era... being the Solaris VII champion for twho months of duelling in 0.0, in t1 frigs...

so many stories of what makes eve great

 

with GHSC, the most impressive bit is that istavaan is still active, and does'nt use alt characters at all. I may not agree with the corp theft on Ubiquita Seraph, in my positions in corp security, but I certainly respect his integrity for not recyling alts. I'll try to find the full account of the US heist, and transcribe it later, too. suffice it to say, anyone who takes out a Navy Apoc in one of the two Impocs in existence needs balls of steel.

 

 

 

I'm afraid Suze' is in Kith, an invitational only corp - membership is very particular and conditional. People don;t join Kith, they get contacted with an offer...

but I can point you toward "the galatic federation" (yes, it's missing a C. No, we don't stop taking the piss out of the CEO for the typo) who are empire and 0.0 based. I'm one of their directors and corp quartermaster, with my #2 character, and they're actively looking for members, and also have more US members who'll be on at the same time as yourself. check out channel TGFE, talk to Drabzz and Cougaro, in particular, and tell 'em that you've known Suzerain and might be looking for a corp.

 

they're mostly industrialists, but I trained 'em up, and a few wars have hardened them into a good force.

[Peregrine]

mmm. Nighthawk and Rook. Nice machines. I use 'em both regularly.

 

Yeah, so many toys, so little time/ISK... my wishlist is Vulture, Rook (yay for near-HAC firepower and terrifying jammers), Falcon (sneak-sneak-sneak-JAMKILLDEATHMAIM), Buzzard, Manticore. And maybe a Cerberus if not for the insane price tag... every missile lover has to want a ship the game itself calls a "missile-spewing monstrosity"!

 

There's just something appealing about sneaking around with a cloaking device in a tissue-paper ship with either battleship-scale missiles, or the ability to call down the wrath of god on anything that offends me. My tiny little Buzzard might not be too frightening, but the battleship horde I'm about to drop into precise optimal range sure is...

there's a lot of other stories I could tell. Masters of Ownage (MoO) and when they camped secure space in Misha, and the devs had to add sentries in..., Drunkenmaster, TankCEO, Istavaan, Omber Zombie and the Eve-University. Goonwaffe's first frigate fleet going battleship hunting, Size from Tribal Souls taking on a pair of Red Alliance dreadnaughts in a Crow, and living to tell the tale, the Serpentis Titan theft (I was there, in a buzzard, giving intel against 5ive) Eve-radio's old racing events - I won over half a billion isk in my early career as a racer, even defeated some of the Caldari Colossus champions... Taking out a Apoc solo in a taranis, being one of the first pilots to break the 8km/s barrier in the single mwd era... being the Solaris VII champion for twho months of duelling in 0.0, in t1 frigs...

so many stories of what makes eve great

 

So much jealousy there... I really wish I'd gotten into this game when I first heard of it, instead of writing it off as just another MMORPG.

 

Nice humble origins of the frigate horde... after seeing the forum post about him taking down capital ships, kestrel-mobbing has been added to my EVE to-do list. It must be a beautiful (if very laggy) sight to watch.

with GHSC, the most impressive bit is that istavaan is still active, and does'nt use alt characters at all. I may not agree with the corp theft on Ubiquita Seraph, in my positions in corp security, but I certainly respect his integrity for not recyling alts. I'll try to find the full account of the US heist, and transcribe it later, too. suffice it to say, anyone who takes out a Navy Apoc in one of the two Impocs in existence needs balls of steel.

 

*nods*

 

Love him or hate him, the guy sure adds depth to the game. That's what I like about EVE, even the truly evil characters are players. It's another human to fight against, not just some random NPC nobody really cares about outside of its item drops.

 

 

I'm afraid Suze' is in Kith, an invitational only corp - membership is very particular and conditional. People don;t join Kith, they get contacted with an offer...

but I can point you toward "the galatic federation" (yes, it's missing a C. No, we don't stop taking the piss out of the CEO for the typo) who are empire and 0.0 based. I'm one of their directors and corp quartermaster, with my #2 character, and they're actively looking for members, and also have more US members who'll be on at the same time as yourself. check out channel TGFE, talk to Drabzz and Cougaro, in particular, and tell 'em that you've known Suzerain and might be looking for a corp.

 

they're mostly industrialists, but I trained 'em up, and a few wars have hardened them into a good force.

 

I'll look into it, probably in 2-3 weeks once I get my Buzzard/Manticore flyable. Unless you think they have a use for a pilot who considers a Caracal a top-end ship (so would probably be flying a more expendable T1 frigate he can afford to lose)?