Healthcare

[Kendo 2]

I guess it's just the destruction of the constitution. I really am open if anyone can show me some sort of precedent or real justification on passing it this way.

 

The biggest violation I can think of is the 16th amendment, allowing a leveling of tax on citizens without regard for consensus of the American people, apportionment BACK to the people the taxes that were levied against them or basing the levied tax on a census. The verbage and context of the 'law' as it is written is unconstitutional. Then U.S. President Grover Cleveland ignored a previous Supreme Court finding that a federal income tax was unconstitutional and signed the bill anyway. Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Bush2 and Obama have all spit in the faces of Americans in their terms as President. BOTH parties do it and WE suffer.

[Trandoshan]

So with no way to stop this bill ourselves, we have only one choice in the matter. Sit by, and watch. Smells like Capitalism personally. Making the government pay for healthcare instead of a business through work benefits. Isn't this what it is all about?

 

I still don't understand why we need this bill in the first place. I don't even understand why the businesses need it so much. It's pointless.

 

... and I did take the poor into an account when stating this. I can't seem to care too much about their medical plights. It's only going to raise their taxes as well as the middle class and rich.

 

Also, I was unaware that Grover did that despite Supreme Court hearings. I'm saving that for a college-debate.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Trandoshan

[myrmaad]

I long ago came to terms with paying taxes. In the 90s when we were both working full time and no children at home we were paying about 49% of our earnings total for state, local and mc/ssi. I did a lot of research into it at one time, as one of my uncles was a "true believer" who did time for tax evasion.

 

It just doesn't bother me because paying taxes is the admission to a society with infrastructure and opportunity. And it's the responsible and Right thing to do, in my opinion. I confess I tend I to hold the reaction to the responsibility of it as a standard measure of character. I, for one, appreciate police, fire, road maintenance, the military, and yes the post office, which did a fine job for many decades.

 

That said, what really bothers me is when complicated and highly complex issues that require highly detailed and deliberate thoughtful consideration and analysis are dumbed down into sound bytes and partisan talking points which have nothing to do with reality. Simplistic is for simpletons, not solutions.

 

Most of the rhetoric I hear on the floor of the house is pure propaganda with very little of substance. Most of these old white men and women seem very naive, and not at all engaged in understanding the nuance and process of our systems.

 

There is one valid point from the opposition, and yet they don't follow through on the logic of its full implication, which is, the great society programs grew into much more than simple entitlements, but instead became one of the hubs of our GDP. Once corporate power has such a powerful foothold in the economy, it becomes very intimidating for legislators to reign in, and very seductive for legislators who can draw from that source of money and power.

 

And while we're on the subject of corporate power, I am fully prepared to debunk the idea that we have ever experienced a true free market. That's a mythological unicorn, and always has been since the first chartered corporation by the British crown on the eve of 1600. (Incidentally that corporation still lives today, which should scare the bejeebus off any rational thinker.)

 

I contend the only truly unfettered free market was as practiced by those that formed the roots of capitalism, the cottage industry of the British countryside, in an era that gave rise to unprecedented upward mobility, yes, but those conditions are not the conditions present in today's society, and no amount of wishing, hoping, and believing is going to will them into existence.

 

This healthcare problem is the rooted at the idea that you can serve up health products like widgets off an assembly line, a very similar problem to why our schools are failing.

 

Well that's quite enough from me for now.

[Christine777]

It’s clear enough that majority of Americans don’t support this bill, (cnf. News and Polls) why is it still pressed on?

Obama must have something in mind or NOTHING AT ALL. :whistling:

[myrmaad]

It’s clear enough that majority of Americans don’t support this bill, (cnf. News and Polls) why is it still pressed on?

Obama must have something in mind or NOTHING AT ALL. :whistling:

 

No such thing is clear at all.

 

It's very clear that the majority of Americans do want healthcare reform, so I would like to see your sources for that claim.

[Maxwell the Fool]

Kendo is right.

 

Why does this smell like capitalism? It's socialist to give away tax money like this...... I just don't see the capitalism.

 

Not that either of those is evil, or anything. I just was curious.

 

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The above portion is from a previous post that I made

 

I'm not in any way against paying taxes, and the only possible attack that can be made on any further spending is the recession. The government is in so much debt that it's just gonna explode...... It's unsustainable. I don't think adding more debt is reasonable, and I think the Obama administration should stick to (I believe it was an executive order that said) the idea that all money you wish to spend must be accounted for NOW!

 

I think the main issues are jobs and debt. The debt of the American people and that of our government. I don't even know why health care is being thrown into the mix NOW. Of all times, in the middle/latter half of a recession! Why can't the administration do something that could solve many of our problems. My solution is off topic, so I'll hold off on it for another day (and I can't wait to see it fail horribly in the face of honest debate!).

 

Oh, by the way, I'm a bit of an enthusiast when it comes to debate..... I argue to win, but I love it when I lose, because then I learn.

[Kendo 2]

*dies of shock that someone here agrees with me*

 

I have my own Obama solution and it's legal. Come Saturday if the health reform bill is passed the five cow hands we have will be fired. Texas is an at-will state and I don't need a reason. If they file for unemployment I'll use internal delay, lose paperwork, ignore letters and phone calls and generally bog down the bureaucratic process. Nothing illegal about that, I'm just abscent-minded. I'll hire new hands and they will be part-time contractors, be responsible for 1040SEs and their own insurance. So much for Obama's 'change' in my neck of the woods. And I have my TXU insurance from when I was working at Big Brown and I'm locked in, so I don't have to worry Obama Care at all.

 

EDIT: And I seriously doubt I'm the only small business man to have figured this out.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Kendo 2

[Trandoshan]

Why does this smell like capitalism? It's socialist to give away tax money like this...... I just don't see the capitalism.

 

You know historically, about 100 years ago. People got benefits. Whether it was Healthcare paid for by the business, a Christmas bonus, or stock options. According to many texts, capitalism was very unpopular in Europe when it first began. The change was too much for the farming villages that dotted the landscape. When Marx brought up his Marxist ideology, the peasantry who were unhappy with the Bourgeoisie(sp?) started to follow the ideology. Marxism began with the intent to crumble capitalism by offering a solution to Industrialized populations. Now, in order to counter this, the rich Industrial Bourgeoisie decided to sweeten the deal of capitalism which came to a loss at their distaste. Benefits. Since the 1800's, Worker benefits have drawn people into Industrialization.

 

Now lets jump to the 1900's, and 1940's. The amount of people who are self sustaining (I.E. Farmers) have decreased by a large amount. Industry has grown in it's wake.

 

Skip ahead to the 60's... America can no longer sustain itself with food, without the need of importations.

 

Now skip to the 80's. Industry is all America has left as a money maker, and here is the kicker. Robots are beginning to take Man's place at the assembly line for cheaper than ever. Robots don't need healthcare, they need specialized mechanics. So what happens? The unskilled worker is laid off, and loses his benefits. The skilled worker is recruited, and because he is 'skilled', he is essential. This skilled worker demands Healthcare, and because he's irreplaceable.

 

He is given the demand. for twenty years, these skilled workers get the best healthcare. That is until the financial melt-down. Now the companies are hurting, and what is a major expense that those skilled workers are absorbing out of them? Health Care Benefits. The companies need this skilled man, but can't afford the Healthcare that is expected. Who you gonna call? The Government, and the people's money. Capitalism's little twist has revealed itself ugly quite recently here in America, right? The same thing happened in Europe, and faster because they were not as rich as we were, and the corporations adopted Universal Healthcare there.

 

Alright, Nexus. Prove me wrong.

[Maxwell the Fool]

So what your saying is that capitalism produced a country so reliant on foreign aid (of sorts), in the form of financial backage, the country had nothing to fall back on when hit by a slight economic tremor?

 

I suppose it's faired better than Mexico, Greece and Iceland just to name a few..... What do you make of that?

[Trandoshan]

So what your saying is that capitalism produced a country so reliant on foreign aid (of sorts), in the form of financial backage, the country had nothing to fall back on when hit by a slight economic tremor?

 

I suppose it's faired better than Mexico, Greece and Iceland just to name a few..... What do you make of that?

 

I believe that sums up ONE of the points I was trying to make. The other had to do with Business not wanting to pay Health care benefits to their workers, and handing it off to the gov't.

 

Trying not to go off topic, but those countries you mentioned are failed examples of fail. Greece just collapsed because AIG(or one banking company in America, can't think of the specific one.) called for it's loans that they had secretly given to Greece. Capitalism conquering one of the most ancient of nations...

 

Dunno bout Iceland, but Mexico is too a stagnant economic cesspool. Not sure if either of those are true capitalistic nations. I do know Greece is, they proved it when the news leaked out they were investing secretly with a capitalistic company. Your counter-argument did get me thinking about one thing though. All of the nations in western Europe were at one time Capitalism based. France was, England was, Germany, E.T.C.

 

Now they are all Socialist nations. Fancy that.

 

Edit: I need to take a break from the forums, my arguments are beginning to show signs of weakness!