Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Lachdonin]

I think that the leaders of both armies are way too bloodthirsty. If the Legion wins, they should sent Ulfric to Cyrodiil to go on trial.

There is a rather well supported theory that both the initial execution, and the summary executing n in Windhelm, are to keep Ulfric out of Thalmor hands. Whether because Tulius suspects them of duplicity, or to save Ulfric from torture isn't clear, though I more suspect the former..

[GetTheJojDone]

I think that the leaders of both armies are way too bloodthirsty. If the Legion wins, they should sent Ulfric to Cyrodiil to go on trial. If the Stormcloaks win, they should send General Tullius back to Cyrodiil in shame.

 

But...Ulfric's clothes/Tullius' armour.

[MidbossVyers]

 

I think that the leaders of both armies are way too bloodthirsty. If the Legion wins, they should sent Ulfric to Cyrodiil to go on trial. If the Stormcloaks win, they should send General Tullius back to Cyrodiil in shame.

 

But...Ulfric's clothes/Tullius' armour.

 

Tullius can't even decide on his armor style. His armor has both clothing and heavy armor properties, but the color scheme is clearly something to be worn with light armor.

[GetTheJojDone]

 

 

I think that the leaders of both armies are way too bloodthirsty. If the Legion wins, they should sent Ulfric to Cyrodiil to go on trial. If the Stormcloaks win, they should send General Tullius back to Cyrodiil in shame.

 

But...Ulfric's clothes/Tullius' armour.

 

Tullius can't even decide on his armor style. His armor has both clothing and heavy armor properties, but the color scheme is clearly something to be worn with light armor.

 

 

Yeah, I have no idea what Bethesda were doing. And it's improved with steel ingots for some reason.

[ZerglingEXP397]

I'm just going to give this a shot and do my best at what I've gone into researching and thoughts- Will be a long read. And it'll either make sense, or none whatsoever, you decide. And I'm gonna be a little biased at the Empire, going with the Stormcloaks- Mainly because of game experiences- And, again, a little thought on my end.

 

Going to the beginning- You'd think a species hellbent on proving they are superior to Humans in every way shape and/or form would continue fighting and prove the fact- Not unless they have a long term plan otherwise? A means they couldn't really go for without tricking others to get their way. I'm talking of course, about the White Gold Concordat. Now, I haven't really 'researched' this portion, but I feel I read enough and heard enough about it to get an idea. Thalmor attacked the Empire, pushed them back, Empire pushed back, retook Cyrodil, approached with peace terms, etc. etc.

 

The Peace terms seem heavy in the Thalmor's favor. Forbidding the Worship of Talo's, and generally making the Empire Puppets for the sake of keeping 'peace'. Well, in my experiences and I'm not sure if many other's have seen it- But I hear how the Empire is keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim. Which, they are either lying to you, or doing a piss poor job of such. You walk down the road, you either see Thalmor *looking* for someone, or dragging someone along. Hell, there's a Thalmor in the Reach looking to arrest someone under the rumor that he worships Talo's.

 

Then I remember the Legend behind Ysagamor and his 500 companions. They settled in Skyrim, and the Elf's were there- Buddy buddy stuff, Elf's spotted them being more 'productive' in terms of breeding- Which the Elf's feared, so killed a lot of them. Ysgamor in turn slaughtered the Elf's and sent them packing.

 

So in the long term- The Thalmor were all but beaten during the war, but refused to 'show', so through trickery and deception, BAM, peace treaty in their favor, keeping the civil war going and the Empire occupied by forcing them to do so- And generally dragging people away, to later on start another war they are more then prepared for and *win* for certain.

 

Which leads me to another point- Nords want Skyrim independent, yet Empire won't let them. Why? I understand it started with them but still, why? They didn't have an issue letting Hammerfell go in the beginning. (In hindsight, I understand why, but still- My question stands.)

 

Now on to Ulfric and his 'Stormcloaks'. You know that wasn't their name right? The Imperials gave them that name, to demoralize them and make them less then human. THAT SURE BACKFIRED, HUH!?

 

Well, let's see. Racism- They aren't Racist. They are overly cautious. I'll tell you why in a few points and observations and listening closely.

 

The first thing you see when walking into Windhelm is a guy yelling at a Dunmer woman. Why? Because she's not helping them in their time of need. As... He puts it. And listening more so, she's accused of being a spy for the Imperial's. Not unfounded, given there's an Imperial flag and set of armor in their bar, but that's besides the point-

Now, he's mad. He's furious! Because here's a Dunmer who refuses to help. He's being racist, right? Wrong. He has reasons behind such- The dunmer are a proud race, as one explained. They don't want to 'help out' or 'prove themselves'. Speaking to the high elf in the market- She too had the hardships, but, she made friends, she worked, she proved herself! Now look at her! She sells them arms, jewelry, armor here and there. There's another high Elf selling them potions, making their mead- Huh. Not to mention the Dunmer selling them their MEAT. Their FOOD. To them.

 

In long term- You'd be pretty pissed off too if you invited someone to live with you, and they in turn ate all your food, drank all your drinks and generally f*#@ed around- And then do nothing for you in return.

 

Argonian's in the Harbor- That's a guy being greedy when you speak to them. A guy. Being. Greedy. And they live out there because of the Dunmer. Otherwise, there would be trouble between the two- For obvious reasons. For those of you who don't know- Morrowind held Argonian slaves they captured and took from Black Marsh.

 

You speak to another, he asks you to steal a thing of Skooma. Skooma is an illegal drug substance- So he's a baddy bad! Let's move on shall we?

 

To say Stormcloaks are Racist is saying All nords are Racist. Why? Kahjiit. They aren't allowed in any of the hold's. The city limits. Why? Because they knowingly selling Skooma and Moon sugar. Again- Illegal s#*!. Guards, likewise, don't know if they have Skooma or not!

 

Now on to Ulfric Stormcloak. Some say he's racist, and power hungry. Both are generally false. Racist- It's said he's the first to sound the horn when a Nord anything is attacked, but everything else is non-existent. Listen to some of the conversations between him and his Steward. It's said he doesn't have the resources or men to spare to HELP ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES. Obviously, with the war and all! Reasonable if you ask me.

 

Power hungry- Again, not so much. He was captured, mindf*#@ed, etc. etc. He came home to a city in mourning- And when they figured out he was still alive- What happened? THEY. PLACED HIM ON THE THRONE, AND DEMANDED HE DID SOMETHING. He did, obviously. What he's doing is for his people- It's what they want. Not the whole population, of course, but he's doing what his people wants. Again, listen to some of the conversation, and talk to him. He doesn't think he can aspire to the greatness of Ysgamor, or his father. But he's going to try!

 

With the issue on the murder of the High King- Eh, wasn't murder. It was a fair fight on this one point- WHAT. ARE THE DRAUGR DOING. WHEN YOU FIGHT THEM!? They are SHOUTING at you! Ulfric doesn't deny this fact, and everyone says he did it. But it wasn't the shout alone that killed him. Otherwise, heh, you, the dragonborn would have a FIELD DAY with that shout!

It's said he didn't have to kill Torygg, and that if asked he would have sided with him, etc. etc. Well, here's the thing- Torygg didn't care. He didn't care about his people, the struggles, and was more enthralled with entertaining the Queen. And Ulfric, for the record- *DID* ask. He asked Torygg to help him. He said no- Hence why he was challenged to fight. The court agree's to that too! Which... Leads to another.

 

Civil War seems more like a Wife's blood thirsty revenge more then anything- Aside from the Thalmor forcing the Empire to do such, she had ties to them, so, she had them come and yadda yadda! Start a Civil War.

 

It sort of baffles me no one bothers to really look into this sort of thing, or research to find out more- And instead, simply go along with what other's say. Racism, and bullshit. It's.... Not that simple, they have reasons behind what they do, and reasons for doing such. IF they truly were Racist- There wouldn't be Dunmer in Windhelm. No Argonian's unloading their stuff. No Argonian owned Bar in Riften. No Red guards, no Kajhiit. No Breton's. Just Nords Nords Nords!

 

Like I said in the beginning- I feel I had enough info to go on and went for it, and this is my opinion, and some things I've noticed- So! Up to you to decide, and I'll stick with the Stormcloaks.

[ZerglingEXP397]

I'm just going to give this a shot and do my best at what I've gone into researching and thoughts- Will be a long read. And it'll either make sense, or none whatsoever, you decide. And I'm gonna be a little biased at the Empire, going with the Stormcloaks- Mainly because of game experiences- And, again, a little thought on my end.

 

Going to the beginning- You'd think a species hellbent on proving they are superior to Humans in every way shape and/or form would continue fighting and prove the fact- Not unless they have a long term plan otherwise? A means they couldn't really go for without tricking others to get their way. I'm talking of course, about the White Gold Concordat. Now, I haven't really 'researched' this portion, but I feel I read enough and heard enough about it to get an idea. Thalmor attacked the Empire, pushed them back, Empire pushed back, retook Cyrodil, approached with peace terms, etc. etc.

 

The Peace terms seem heavy in the Thalmor's favor. Forbidding the Worship of Talo's, and generally making the Empire Puppets for the sake of keeping 'peace'. Well, in my experiences and I'm not sure if many other's have seen it- But I hear how the Empire is keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim. Which, they are either lying to you, or doing a piss poor job of such. You walk down the road, you either see Thalmor *looking* for someone, or dragging someone along. Hell, there's a Thalmor in the Reach looking to arrest someone under the rumor that he worships Talo's.

 

Then I remember the Legend behind Ysagamor and his 500 companions. They settled in Skyrim, and the Elf's were there- Buddy buddy stuff, Elf's spotted them being more 'productive' in terms of breeding- Which the Elf's feared, so killed a lot of them. Ysgamor in turn slaughtered the Elf's and sent them packing.

 

So in the long term- The Thalmor were all but beaten during the war, but refused to 'show', so through trickery and deception, BAM, peace treaty in their favor, keeping the civil war going and the Empire occupied by forcing them to do so- And generally dragging people away, to later on start another war they are more then prepared for and *win* for certain.

 

Which leads me to another point- Nords want Skyrim independent, yet Empire won't let them. Why? I understand it started with them but still, why? They didn't have an issue letting Hammerfell go in the beginning. (In hindsight, I understand why, but still- My question stands.)

 

Now on to Ulfric and his 'Stormcloaks'. You know that wasn't their name right? The Imperials gave them that name, to demoralize them and make them less then human. THAT SURE BACKFIRED, HUH!?

 

Well, let's see. Racism- They aren't Racist. They are overly cautious. I'll tell you why in a few points and observations and listening closely.

 

The first thing you see when walking into Windhelm is a guy yelling at a Dunmer woman. Why? Because she's not helping them in their time of need. As... He puts it. And listening more so, she's accused of being a spy for the Imperial's. Not unfounded, given there's an Imperial flag and set of armor in their bar, but that's besides the point-

Now, he's mad. He's furious! Because here's a Dunmer who refuses to help. He's being racist, right? Wrong. He has reasons behind such- The dunmer are a proud race, as one explained. They don't want to 'help out' or 'prove themselves'. Speaking to the high elf in the market- She too had the hardships, but, she made friends, she worked, she proved herself! Now look at her! She sells them arms, jewelry, armor here and there. There's another high Elf selling them potions, making their mead- Huh. Not to mention the Dunmer selling them their MEAT. Their FOOD. To them.

 

In long term- You'd be pretty pissed off too if you invited someone to live with you, and they in turn ate all your food, drank all your drinks and generally f***ed around- And then do nothing for you in return.

 

Argonian's in the Harbor- That's a guy being greedy when you speak to them. A guy. Being. Greedy. And they live out there because of the Dunmer. Otherwise, there would be trouble between the two- For obvious reasons. For those of you who don't know- Morrowind held Argonian slaves they captured and took from Black Marsh.

 

You speak to another, he asks you to steal a thing of Skooma. Skooma is an illegal drug substance- So he's a baddy bad! Let's move on shall we?

 

To say Stormcloaks are Racist is saying All nords are Racist. Why? Kahjiit. They aren't allowed in any of the hold's. The city limits. Why? Because they knowingly selling Skooma and Moon sugar. Again- Illegal s***. Guards, likewise, don't know if they have Skooma or not!

 

Now on to Ulfric Stormcloak. Some say he's racist, and power hungry. Both are generally false. Racist- It's said he's the first to sound the horn when a Nord anything is attacked, but everything else is non-existent. Listen to some of the conversations between him and his Steward. It's said he doesn't have the resources or men to spare to HELP ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES. Obviously, with the war and all! Reasonable if you ask me.

 

Power hungry- Again, not so much. He was captured, mindf*#@ed, etc. etc. He came home to a city in mourning- And when they figured out he was still alive- What happened? THEY. PLACED HIM ON THE THRONE, AND DEMANDED HE DID SOMETHING. He did, obviously. What he's doing is for his people- It's what they want. Not the whole population, of course, but he's doing what his people wants. Again, listen to some of the conversation, and talk to him. He doesn't think he can aspire to the greatness of Ysgamor, or his father. But he's going to try!

 

With the issue on the murder of the High King- Eh, wasn't murder. It was a fair fight on this one point- WHAT. ARE THE DRAUGR DOING. WHEN YOU FIGHT THEM!? They are SHOUTING at you! Ulfric doesn't deny this fact, and everyone says he did it. But it wasn't the shout alone that killed him. Otherwise, heh, you, the dragonborn would have a FIELD DAY with that shout!

It's said he didn't have to kill Torygg, and that if asked he would have sided with him, etc. etc. Well, here's the thing- Torygg didn't care. He didn't care about his people, the struggles, and was more enthralled with entertaining the Queen. And Ulfric, for the record- *DID* ask. He asked Torygg to help him. He said no- Hence why he was challenged to fight. The court agree's to that too! Which... Leads to another.

 

Civil War seems more like a Wife's blood thirsty revenge more then anything- Aside from the Thalmor forcing the Empire to do such, she had ties to them, so, she had them come and yadda yadda! Start a Civil War.

 

It sort of baffles me no one bothers to really look into this sort of thing, or research to find out more- And instead, simply go along with what other's say. Racism, and bulls***. It's.... Not that simple, they have reasons behind what they do, and reasons for doing such. IF they truly were Racist- There wouldn't be Dunmer in Windhelm. No Argonian's unloading their stuff. No Argonian owned Bar in Riften. No Red guards, no Kajhiit. No Breton's. Just Nords Nords Nords!

 

Like I said in the beginning- I feel I had enough info to go on and went for it, and this is my opinion, and some things I've noticed- So! Up to you to decide, and I'll stick with the Stormcloaks.

I forgot to mention the bit with the Thalmor and the 'Uncooperative asset' book thing. It's made clear they want the Civil war to continue for as long as possible- And points out that a win from either side don't fit their motives- And as I said before- Empire are not keeping Thalmor out of Skyrim. Where as if the Stormcloaks win...

[117649AR]

The history of the Elder Scrolls paints man as no more good than mer. Throughout history men kill elves en masse, throughout history elves kill men en masse. Mind you, the sources that state that the Nords from Atmora settled Skyrim peacefully and were viciously attacked are heavily biased due to the people that wrote them: the Nords invaded and conquered Skyrim, and either killed off or marginalized the people that were originally there. That's neither here nor there, however. Obviously we're supposed to have a human-bias due to being... well, humans, but it helps to understand that the universe is grey, and the unreliable narrator is a *censored*.

 

On to the main point: the Stormcloak cause is in many ways noble, but severely misguided and shortsighted.

 

On the Great War: the Empire retook Cyrodiil after being beaten heavily by the Dominion, and even then only managed to retake it due to the shrewd leadership of Emperor Titus Mede and his Generals. The Legion did not have the strength or the resources to defeat their armies completely, and even assuming they could, the superiority of the Dominion Navy at sea made any invasion of the Summerset Isles impossible. And note, if anyone has any right to complain, it is the Imperials, not the Nords. Nords may have fought in the Legion, but it was Cyrodiil that bled in the Oblivion Crisis, and Cyrodiil that bled in the Great War. Further, Tiber Septim was no Nord, and as the founder of the Empire he holds a great place of respect and worship for the Empire.

 

On the White-Gold Concordat: the entire point of the Concordat was to allow the Empire to recover, so that it could at a later date have its revenge on the Aldmeri Dominion. None of the terms were considered to be permanent, as the Legion fully intended to defeat the Dominion in the inevitable Second Great War. And perhaps most importantly, the Empire does not enforce it. There are many Imperial citizens and many Imperial Legionnaires that continue to worship Talos in secret: he is, after all, the Empire's patron god and founder. The Dominion is visibly irritated by this fact, and despite bringing up instances of Talos worship, Imperial authorities simply look to them dumbfoundedly and deny that there was any worship at all. The only reason Thalmor Justiciars had cause to personally root out Talos worship in Skyrim was Ulfric's uprising: many characters mention this. And mind, the Empire is indeed the only thing keeping the Dominion at large out of Skyrim. Because the Concordat was signed, the Dominion was not able to continue the war and push into the north after it had recovered from its defeat in Cyrodiil: it suffered heavy losses to the Legion, but it remained militarily superior.

 

On the death of High King Torygg: the "assassination by shouting to pieces" is exaggeration, but to call the duel fair is ridiculous. Ulfric would not have challenged the High King had he not known for a fact that he would win. Note, when he is challenged to an honourable duel by Jarl Balgruuf (who knows full well of Ulfric's use of the Voice, and yet challenges him anyway in order to spare his hold from war), he declines, opting instead to sack Whiterun with his army. Ulfric was far more skilled a warrior than Torygg, but more than that, he had the Thu'um. In all accounts, Ulfric simply shouts the young King to the ground, and slides his blade into his heart while Torygg lies helpless. Depending on the teller of the story, Torygg may or may not have also suffered injury while being knocked to the floor. It was suicide for Torygg, and despite knowing this, he was honourbound to accept his fate. When Ulfric entered the palace, the King knew he was going to die, and Ulfric knew he was going to kill him.

 

On the Nords and the Empire: there is a reason that it is a Civil War, and not a War with the Empire: many Nords served in the Legion, and many Nords continue to serve in the Legion even as they are asked to fight their kinsmen. The Nords have been a part of the Empire since its foundation (by Tiber Septim), contribute heavily to and are heavily steeped in its culture, and, most importantly, are dependent on the intracontinental trade that the Empire provides. This issue of trade is crucial. Skyrim depends on the imports and coin flow from the other provinces within and without the Empire; absent the trade from the rest of Tamriel, Skyrim would wither. Add to this the fact that the Legion could very well blockade Skyrim if its efforts in the Civil War did not bear fruit, and that Skyrim does not possess many viable routes out from its territory by land or by sea.

 

On the issue of race relations: nearly every race in the Elder Scrolls has large degree of xenophobia and ethnocentrism, stronger in some provinces and weaker in others, but largely omnipresent. However, the Empire is by far the most racially and culturally diverse political faction on Nirn, and is the only faction that also promotes racial equality and is known to treat races that are otherwise seen as pariahs fairly. Notably, the Orcs note that the Empire has always treated them fairly, and the Legion is well known for accepting recruits regardless of race or creed. In fact, in Morrowind, you could, as an Orc, Khajiit, or Argonian, become the highest ranking military official in Vvardenfell. The Nords are racist, yes. As are Bretons, Imperials, Dunmer, Orcs... the list goes on. The Empire as a political entity, however, forces its constituents to get along with one another (or at the very least not kill each other) despite significant grating of teeth.

 

On the possibility of Stormcloak victory, and what it means for the province: remember, again, that half or more of the population of Skyrim still supports the Empire. An Imperial defeat sets the stage for another insurgency, whose target would be the Stormcloak regime. It is not as simple as defeating Tullius and achieving peace. Further, keep in mind that the Dominion has been gaining strength just as the Empire had been before it was drawn into the Civil War in Skyrim, and that the Dominion was able to defeat the collective might of the Imperial Legion when it was still relatively strong. The Stormcloaks struggle to defeat the single Legion that was sent to quell the uprising: even if it manages victory over this detachment, they have absolutely no chance of defeating the full force of the Dominion without the aid of the rest of the Empire, especially considering that the Empire as a whole does not have a guaranteed chance of victory with all of its forces unified. Of course, there is also nothing to say that the Empire will not simply send more Legions into Skyrim considering the importance of the province, and the fact that there remain significant numbers of Imperial supporters there. Either way, Skyrim and the Empire are both weakened, while the Dominion gathers its strength so that it can finally destroy mankind and, by extension, Mundus.

 

You assume that others do not do their own research to come to their own conclusions to support the Empire, but not to support the Stormcloaks? Many players simply side with the Stormcloaks because they weren't the ones that tried to behead you at the start of the game. At least so far as my experience goes, all of the arguments I've seen that advocated the Empire were well thought out and coherent: I cannot say the same, largely, for the opposition.

 

As a finishing note, a quote by the wise and longlived vampire Sybille Stentor, who is rather well integrated into society and serves as the Court Mage for the Blue Palace.

 

On the reason High King Torygg did not simply declare Skyrim's independence from the Empire himself:

 

"Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."

Edited February 13, 2015 by 117649AR

[ZerglingEXP397]

Where did I mention I was assuming no one else researched? Or put thought into it? I don't believe I did, simply that I put opinion and experience in there. So you can kiss my ass right there. (Yes, I mentioned not many research- Still not exactly assuming, more of an observation. Seriously- Go look around and search for actual debates other then this one- You'll see what I mean.)

 

As for well thought out, well.... Again, you can kiss my ass- Considering mine was fairly thought out as far as I can see. But evidently you didn't think so- And better yet, decided to take a pot shot. (That was an assumption, by the way)

 

But I read your post nonetheless and all I have to say is Bravo. You've given me more things to think about, and rethink over mine.

 

Isn't going to stop me from tellin' ya to go f*** yourself.

 

Edit: Doesn't.... Change my statements above. At all.

Edited February 13, 2015 by ZerglingEXP397

[117649AR]

Apologies if I offended, as that was not my intention. I assumed that by the first sentence in your second to last paragraph, you meant that those who came to the conclusion that the Empire was a better choice did not "really look into" it. And by my statements, I was not referring to your post. As I said before, many simply side with the Stormcloaks because they aren't the ones who are about to cut your head off at the start of the game, and do not look into which is more objectively the better side to support. In any case I enjoy civil discussion and debate, and I'd rather this not turn into an argument.

[ZerglingEXP397]

Well, I thank you for apologizing- And since that is done, I take back what I said in kind. You are *THE* first person to actually give me the opportunity like this.

 

As far as my post goes- It's not really why they are right or why they should win, because let's be honest- Both sides kind of 'suck' in some regard. My main goal is to say Stormcloaks aren't racist- And the Empire is doing a piss poor job of keeping the Thalmor out, and Ulfric Stormcloak isn't really a 'bad guy' whom is power hungry. And I came to that conclusion after looking and observing, listening and etc. etc.

 

As for the civil war thing- Yeah, a lot take that into account, and I understand both sides. I side with the Stormcloaks 9 out of 10 times not only because the Empire seems to be filled with liars, or those that don't see what's going on- But because they are inherently 'mean' themselves to them. Take for instance the name Storm Cloaks. That wasn't originally their name, and it's more or less there to demoralize, like I stated above.

 

That and that little feud with the Grey Manes and the Battle-Borns. Age old friends turning enemies in an instant and just being 'mean' to one another. I don't know of anything else, but I know the Battle-borns were assholes when they basically told that old lady her said was killed and to get over it.

 

Edit: And more of a Question- I find it odd, and probably you as well, that the Thalmor is almost not talked about in terms of 'losses' and Army size by the battle/The end of the war. Surely you do as well?

Edited February 13, 2015 by ZerglingEXP397