Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[117649AR]

The Empire's influence as an agent of modern-esque progressivism (the closest we're likely to see in Tamriel, at least) isnt mentioned very much in Skyrim as the context is quite different, in my opinion. It was a more important theme in TES III as Morrowind was a (relatively) recent addition to the Empire, still deeply rooted in conservative tradition and a culture (like most in the Elder Scrolls, really) that espoused notions of racial superiority. The Dunmer regularly took slaves of other races, and indeed if the Nerevarine is anything but a Dunmer he/she is treated with contempt by many, if not most residents of Vvardenfell. Even in the event he/she is a Dunmer, he/she is cursed as an Outlander by virtue of not having been born in the Dunmer heartland. Thus, the Empire's push for something resembling racial equality (among other issues, such as abolition of slavery and combating drug trade) was an area of deep contention between the Great Houses (save Hlaalu) and the Imperial Government. By contrast Skyrim has always been a part of the Third Empire, and has been both contributing to and soaking in Imperial culture for century upon century: it's tolerant for the most part, by virtue of having been forced to tolerate other races by Imperial law for so long. The only notable mention of Imperial tolerance as contrasted with "racism" in TES V is more or less in the issue of Dunmer/Argonians in Eastmarch, and even then it's very mild compared to the wholesale race-hatred/genocide/slavery that's been rampant in non-Imperial cultures.

 

Also, back in Oblivion, all the other counts, save for the vampire one, made fun of the Dark Elf count, and I'm not even going to mention what Leyawiin's countess does.

 

You'll be hard-pressed to find any race in TES that doesn't express some degree of bias against other races. What matters, ultimately, is that men, mer, and beastfolk are protected against violent discrimination by Imperial Law: this is leaps and bounds more progressive than most factions' policies on the matter. Evident also is the fact that men, mer, and beastfolk, beyond legal protections, are afforded similar opportunities by Imperial Law. Regardless of race, from Orc to Argonian, individuals are capable of ascending the ranks in the various legally-sanctioned Imperial Guilds and the Imperial Legion itself. The Nerevarine could become the Archmage of the Vvardenfell Mage's Guild, Master of the Vvardenfell Fighter's Guild, Primate of the Vvardenfell Imperial Cult, and Knight of the Imperial Dragon in the Vvardenfell Legion Garrison by virtue of aptitude, for example, while it took a considerable amount more maneuvering in order to ascend to Archmaster of a Great House and/or be recognized as Hortator by the others.

Edited February 25, 2015 by 117649AR

[LoneWolfEburg]

A good internal interpretation, but one that defangs the argument for supporting the Empire as a beacon of tolerance in the Civil War, what's with the bigotry of its Stormcloak opponents being also very much tempered.

[117649AR]

Well of course it's still better for the Dunmer and Argonians under Imperial Law: my point was more that the Stormcloaks are not treating them as badly as they would be treated in other non-Imperial cultures, and that even the Stormcloaks have been influenced by the many long centuries of Imperial Law and forced tolerance. My arguments for supporting the Empire are more on the grounds that it is better for Skyrim's people and better for the purpose of defeating the Thalmor's plans. Ulfric is not Hitler, but his victory will make Skyrim worse off and potentially allow the Dominion to destroy Mundus.

[Lachdonin]

You mean before the dossier concludes with "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."

 

Really if you're going to quote something, bother to read the entire segment. It's not as if it would require a great deal of time, given it's about one paragraph of text if that.

It is not singled put as the threat to the Thalmor goals in Skyrim. Which is curious, since it would.oresukbaly lead to their total expulsion. However, whereas they clearly state they are William my to get directly involved to protect the Stormcloaks continued rebellion, no such things involvement is even remotely insinuated in defense of the Empire. They are willing to get their hands dirty to stop the Empire, bit not to stop the Stormcloaks. That's a pretty strong indicator of who they view as the more serious threat.

 

Dawnstar has its Daedric sleep deprivation problem to deal with, that's hardly dissent against Ulfric. Given that the Jarl of Winterhold basically rules nothing, his jealousy of Ulfric isn't worth much consideration either. Considering how the Dossier keeps referring to direct contact, I seriously doubt there ever was any written correspondence between Ulfric and whichever Thalmor agent was manipulating him.

3 prominent citizens in Dawnstar favour the Empire. The former legionaries, the mines owner, and the city elder. Most of the other citizens have nothing hut bad thongs to say about Skald the Elder. And discounting Winterhold entirely because of its damaged state is just silly. Windhelm has been sacked several times, and burned to the ground, and it's recovered. Winterhold also holds a place of historic prestige and a respected politically position, particularly after the recovery of the Helm of Winterhold.

 

Furthermore... You don't really have a clue about how subterfuge works, do you? There doesn't HAVE to he any authentic correspondence between Elenwyn and Ulfric. There just has to be intercepted Letters with enough information to cast doubt. Considering what they gained during the Great War, and the clear insinuation in the Dossier that they promoted the Markarth Incedent, they have enough to bury Ulfric in doubt, particularly when there are already doubters within the Stormcloaks leadership. Suddenly, the 'treacherous lies' of Lawgiver's son become less simple to dismiss. Suddenly the fact that the Justicars only appeared after Ulfric spoke up sticks in people minds.

 

Whether true or not isn't the point (nor the debate). The problem is, the Thalmor have too much on Ulfric, which makes him vulnerable to propaganda, manipulation, deceit and sabotage. His position hinges on the whims of those he fights to dispose, which is neither good for his movement, nor for a 'Free Skyrim'.

 

What happens if the Dominion leaks information that Ulfric's loose lips led to the fall of the Imperial City? Not even he knows that it's a lie, and suddenly he becomes the one who lost the Great War. Worse than that, he becomes a traitor. Without Ulfric, the Jarls of Skyrim are a bunch of petty lords who would turn on each other for power, just as Balgruf predicts.

[MidbossVyers]

In terms of the internal strife of a liberated Skyrim, I think that's why Ulfric made sure to include the Dragonborn in his victory speech in Solitude. Even those who support the Empire consider the Dragonborn a great hero. Whether they accept Talos a god or emperor, everyone accepts him as Dragonborn. Therefore, saying that the current Dragonborn supports him further legitimizes Ulfric's rule.

[Lachdonin]

In Skyrim, maybe... But outside is a different matter. Not many people outside Skyrim are fond of Dragonborn of any colour, and in Cyrodiil they link the Dragon Blood to the Covenant of Alessia. Ulfrics claims may serve to allienate erstwhile allies, and many in Cyrodiil would likely believe the existence of post Covenant Dragonborn to be sacrilegious, made all the worse comming from the mouth of the man who brought the Inquisition into the Empire to begin with.

 

Even then, it doesn't protect him or his position from the fact the Thalmor know his vulnerabilities and how to manipulate the situation. It also suffers from limited witness to you actually BEING the Dragonborn, and your inevitable disappearance. With so few people knowing about Alduin (and some of those few informed being dead as of the resolution of the game) and the Greybeards typically remaining out of things, you suddenly have a very implicate-able leader, claiming semi-divine support from someone whose not around to prove it, and with known ties to the enemy.

 

That's a very precarious political position... Particularly when dissent already exists.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Lachdonin

[MidbossVyers]

In terms of those 2 points:

Disappearing hero: OK, fine. I have no way to counteract that, except to say that, like many aspects of Skyrim, one can only see when ESVI comes out. CoC became Sheogorath. Nerevarine took a permanent vacation to Akavir. Hero of Daggerfall died (?). Hero of Arena was given a permanent Imperial position of the Eternal Champion (so exception to the rule?).

Proving that you are the Dragonborn to people outside of Skyrim: Assuming that you haven't disappeared yet, this is easy. Shout. Specifically call one of your at least 2 dragon allies. Back during the days of Tiber Septim, Nahfahlaar was called a crown jewel of the Empire. Dragons are powerful in combat, but as symbols of legitimacy, they are even more so. However, I admit that it might make relations with Hammerfell a bit awkward, given that it was that same dragon that incinerated their prince during the Battle of Hunding Bay, although because that occurred centuries before, it would depend on how deep the political wounds are.

But yes, assuming that the Dragonborn has disappeared, all debates about the Dragonborn are moot. Again, IIRC, the Eternal Champion did not disappear, so there is some vagueness in that disappearing phenomenon.

[Falconiano2]

I think Bethesda was unfair to Stormcloaks and kinda led you to support Imperials by portraying the Nords as evil comic villains.

Some clear cases of bias:

- most SC jarls or people that become jarls if you take over a city with SCs are douchebags / corrupts, which is totally unrealistic because nords are adamant about honor and glory while the Empire is currently run on corruption, while Empire jarls are May Sues

- nords are portrayed as racist in a way that makes them seem white nationalists, which makes no sense according to the lore as they always wanted peace and alliances with other races but it was the Elven races that attacked them (think the Ysgramor massacre) over racist reasons
- that racism scene in Windhelm made me wonder if I had just stepped into a radical-left fantasy where I'm told "WOW SO U AGREE WITH ME OR U HATE BLACKS TOO? WE DIN DU NUFFIN" and nobody gives you a real explanation as to why Elves are hated, despite the fact that Nords in the past (allied with Bretons) were attacked by Elves who burned their villages out of nowhere because they hated their race

- no mention that it was the Nords+Breton alliance to win most wars against oppressors in history, which is why the Elves focused the White-Gold concordat on attacking the Nordic culture, as it's the pillar of anti-Aldmeri resistance

 

If you remove all the racist dialogues from Stormcloaks it's easy to pick them, which shows they have been portrayed very poorly and demonized with unrealistic stereotypes that don't even match the lore.

Ironically, the Empire is shown as politically ultra progressive despite being conservative and race supremacists in every other game / in the lore, and the Stormcloaks are portrayed as the Tea Party of Tamriel despite them only hating Elves and for very good reasons.

 

If you dig deeper you discover that the writer of this mess is Emil Pagliarulo, the same writer that made that "good guys vs evil boogeymen" stereotypical binary storyline in Fallout 3.

He has a very strong radical-left bias and demonizes anyone who disagrees as the nazi boogeyman on twitter, so it's easily explained why the Civil War in Skyrim looks like it's straight out of a San Francisco fantasy utopia where radical lefties are world saviors and anyone to the right of Mao must be a comicbook villain.

 

 

[GetTheJojDone]

I think Bethesda was unfair to Stormcloaks and kinda led you to support Imperials by portraying the Nords as evil comic villains.

Some clear cases of bias:

- most SC jarls or people that become jarls if you take over a city with SCs are douchebags / corrupts, which is totally unrealistic because nords are adamant about honor and glory while the Empire is currently run on corruption, while Empire jarls are May Sues

- nords are portrayed as racist in a way that makes them seem white nationalists, which makes no sense according to the lore as they always wanted peace and alliances with other races but it was the Elven races that attacked them (think the Ysgramor massacre) over racist reasons

- that racism scene in Windhelm made me wonder if I had just stepped into a radical-left fantasy where I'm told "WOW SO U AGREE WITH ME OR U HATE BLACKS TOO? WE DIN DU NUFFIN" and nobody gives you a real explanation as to why Elves are hated, despite the fact that Nords in the past (allied with Bretons) were attacked by Elves who burned their villages out of nowhere because they hated their race

- no mention that it was the Nords+Breton alliance to win most wars against oppressors in history, which is why the Elves focused the White-Gold concordat on attacking the Nordic culture, as it's the pillar of anti-Aldmeri resistance

 

If you remove all the racist dialogues from Stormcloaks it's easy to pick them, which shows they have been portrayed very poorly and demonized with unrealistic stereotypes that don't even match the lore.

Ironically, the Empire is shown as politically ultra progressive despite being conservative and race supremacists in every other game / in the lore, and the Stormcloaks are portrayed as the Tea Party of Tamriel despite them only hating Elves and for very good reasons.

 

If you dig deeper you discover that the writer of this mess is Emil Pagliarulo, the same writer that made that "good guys vs evil boogeymen" stereotypical binary storyline in Fallout 3.

He has a very strong radical-left bias and demonizes anyone who disagrees as the nazi boogeyman on twitter, so it's easily explained why the Civil War in Skyrim looks like it's straight out of a San Francisco fantasy utopia where radical lefties are world saviors and anyone to the right of Mao must be a comicbook villain.

 

 

 

As a "radical leftie", I'm pretty tired of people comparing my ideology to Mao, Stalin, <insert stock commie boogeyman here>, and acting as if there's nothing beyond the centre-left except communism, as highlighted.

 

Anyway let's leave the whole left/right wing binary out of this (because the CW is much more nuanced than that) and get back on topic, your arguments seem to be based more on how you think the Civil War should be, rather than how it is. The Empire's corruption, all the Stormcloak jarls being douchebags, that's all subjective.

 

And I'd say the portrayal of the Empire and Stormcloaks is pretty balanced. The Stormcloaks have Skald, Korir and Thongvor, the Empire has Maven and Siddgeir (the main problem with the Imperial jarls doesn't seem to be their intentions as much as their incompetence, or perceived incompetence, see Elisif, Idgrod and Igmund). The Stormcloaks are pretty racist, the Empire are pretty ignorant of Nordic culture (especially Tullius and the Legates). And of course the Empire tries to have you executed, which is what pushes most people to side with the Stormcloaks anyway.

 

Both sides have books in-game supporting their side of the argument (the Stormcloaks have the Scourge of the Gray Quarter and Dunmer of Skyrim, the Empire has that summary of the Great War and the Bear of Markarth). It all seems to indicate no-one is ultimately "the good guy", everyone has some blood on their hands. Really, I don't think it's as black and white as you're making it out to be.

Edited March 8, 2015 by GetTheJojDone

[MidbossVyers]

Oh, in terms of Thongvor, I was under the impression that Thonar was in charge of the back-end corrupt dealings, while Thongvor handled the front-end dealings, which were at worst heavy-handed. For example, the Sanuarach Mine quest reminded less of the actions of a Chicago mob boss and more the actions of large landowning companies buying out smaller cowboy lands during the end of the Wild West era (like near the end of that Ballad of Little Jo film that I had to watch for college IRL). And yes, as GetTheJojDone mentioned, Falkreath is actually better under Stormcloak rule, given that Dengeir actually tries to work hard, despite being old. Also, while not quite relevant, I recall that back in Oblivion, the Imperial Mages Guild banned necromancy, which unintentionally strengthened a splinter group, whose leader you eventually kill, supposedly finalizing the necromancy ban and reunifying mages... Then by the time of Skyrim, the Mages Guild has split asunder into the College of Whispers and the Synod. Now, the Empire has banned the worship of Talos, which unintentionally strengthened a splinter group. Now, you can choose to kill the leader of that group, cause the arrest of a couple more Talos worshipers, and reunify the Empire... Then by the time of ESVI... Just noting that parallel.

Edited March 8, 2015 by MidbossVyers