Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[117649AR]

I think Bethesda was unfair to Stormcloaks and kinda led you to support Imperials by portraying the Nords as evil comic villains.

Some clear cases of bias:

- most SC jarls or people that become jarls if you take over a city with SCs are douchebags / corrupts, which is totally unrealistic because nords are adamant about honor and glory while the Empire is currently run on corruption, while Empire jarls are May Sues

- nords are portrayed as racist in a way that makes them seem white nationalists, which makes no sense according to the lore as they always wanted peace and alliances with other races but it was the Elven races that attacked them (think the Ysgramor massacre) over racist reasons

- that racism scene in Windhelm made me wonder if I had just stepped into a radical-left fantasy where I'm told "WOW SO U AGREE WITH ME OR U HATE BLACKS TOO? WE DIN DU NUFFIN" and nobody gives you a real explanation as to why Elves are hated, despite the fact that Nords in the past (allied with Bretons) were attacked by Elves who burned their villages out of nowhere because they hated their race

- no mention that it was the Nords+Breton alliance to win most wars against oppressors in history, which is why the Elves focused the White-Gold concordat on attacking the Nordic culture, as it's the pillar of anti-Aldmeri resistance

 

If you remove all the racist dialogues from Stormcloaks it's easy to pick them, which shows they have been portrayed very poorly and demonized with unrealistic stereotypes that don't even match the lore.

Ironically, the Empire is shown as politically ultra progressive despite being conservative and race supremacists in every other game / in the lore, and the Stormcloaks are portrayed as the Tea Party of Tamriel despite them only hating Elves and for very good reasons.

 

If you dig deeper you discover that the writer of this mess is Emil Pagliarulo, the same writer that made that "good guys vs evil boogeymen" stereotypical binary storyline in Fallout 3.

He has a very strong radical-left bias and demonizes anyone who disagrees as the nazi boogeyman on twitter, so it's easily explained why the Civil War in Skyrim looks like it's straight out of a San Francisco fantasy utopia where radical lefties are world saviors and anyone to the right of Mao must be a comicbook villain.

 

 

 

The Stormcloaks are portrayed the way they are for a reason: that was what the developers, and the storywriters, intended. Just because you feel as though they shouldn't be as flawed as they are doesn't change the fact that they are that flawed. And Tamrielic history isn't so black-and-white as "Elves oppress Men" or "Men oppress Elves": Lore in The Elder Scrolls revolves heavily around the concept of the unreliable narrator, and indeed depending on which texts you read, it will either portray Men as evil or Mer as evil. In the end, neither absolute is true, and the truth is an unknown shade of grey. If you read the thread regarding the Thalmor, you'll see the in-depth discussion on the matter that I've contributed to.

 

At any rate, the main issue with supporting the Stormcloaks is not that they are "racist", as compared to relations between races in non-Imperial provinces, Ulfric's treatment of the Dunmer and Argonians is incredibly tame. Like it or not, the Nords have always been a part of the Third Empire, and have enforced its cosmopolitan Imperial Law for centuries. By virtue of hundreds of years of forced tolerance and coexistence, the Nords have culturally internalized tolerance and coexistence. If you look at race relations in earlier Eras when Imperial Law was not so widespread, you'll see an abundance of genocide and slavery: this is why the Third Empire is such a radical force of progressive thought. It advocates at least some form of racial equality and equal opportunity, something that was previously largely unheard of to Men or Mer. This is not to say that the Dunmer and Argonians wouldn't be better off under Imperial rule than Ulfric's, but the issue isn't as important as everyone makes it out to be.

 

As I've gone into exhaustive detail with in my previous posts in this thread, if you care to read them, the most sensible reason for supporting the Empire over the Stormcloaks is that it is both better for Skyrim in the long-term and provides the best chance of repelling the Dominion in the inevitable Second Great War. The Empire is far from a perfect government, and Ulfric is far from Hitler, but none of this will matter if the Dominion succeeds in their conquest of Tamriel; pure logic dictates that the secession of Skyrim from the Empire will almost ensure its defeat at the hands of the Aldmeri Dominion, and as the Empire is the only appreciable force standing in its way, an Imperial defeat also virtually ensures Thalmor victory and the unmaking of Mundus.

[MidbossVyers]

Understand that an independent Skyrim is not a completely isolationist one. Ulfric and Galmar both make it clear that the Thalmor are the next on their list of enemies, and even after a Stormcloak victory, the East Empire Company, as well as other non-Nord, non-Skyrim establishments still operate freely in Skyrim.

[117649AR]

Understand that an independent Skyrim is not a completely isolationist one. Ulfric and Galmar both make it clear that the Thalmor are the next on their list of enemies, and even after a Stormcloak victory, the East Empire Company, as well as other non-Nord, non-Skyrim establishments still operate freely in Skyrim.

 

Of course it does not, and with or without the Empire Skyrim depends on trade with the other provinces to sustain itself. However, a fractured Empire will always be weaker than a unified one: even if an independent Skyrim and Hammerfell ally with the Empire to repel a Dominion invasion, it still presents a weaker defense than if the Empire had been whole. In addition, one must remember that a Stormcloak victory still leaves many Imperial sympathizers in the province, and virtually sets the stage for a pro-Imperial insurgency: the difference here is that the Stormcloaks are much less prepared to engage in counter-insurgency than the Imperial Legion, who have had ample experience in such operations. To a movement such as the Stormcloaks, whose momentum is centered on rebellion against an authority, an insurgency placing them as the authority would be devastating. Real world history is full of such precedents. There are other points to be made, but I've outlined them in my previous posts, and would like to keep this relatively brief.

[LoneWolfEburg]

The Empire was also portrayed as relatively tolerant in Morrowind, at least compared to Dunmer traditionalists, even if their tolerance had an expansionistic and aggressive spin. In fact, the Empire's tolerance is very much downplayed in Skyrim (General Servius "politically incorrect" aka "you people and your damn Jarls" Tullius doesn't strike me as a model of tolerance, although he mellows a bit in the end of the Imperial campaign), and Stormcloak so-called bigotry is rather muted, often to the point of informed attribute. 117649AR's in-universe interpretation is fine, although personally, I wish Bethesda wouldn't pull their punches and make Stormcloaks to be more bigoted than their in-game portrayal.

Edited March 9, 2015 by LoneWolfEburg

[Lachdonin]

In fact, the Empire's tolerance is very much downplayed in Skyrim

 

Even downplayed, it's still very much evident. Examples include the workers in Markarth (when you speak to the foreman about working conditions, his response is to the effect of "Ok, ok, geeze, you sound like the Imperial Legion") and the enforced tolerance of Giants (much to the begrudgment of the Jarl of Dawnstar).

[LoneWolfEburg]

Enforced tolerance of giants? When Brina replaces Skald, does she stop issuing orders to kill giants?

Point about the orc foreman.

[Lachdonin]

The Jarl replacements are generally bad at being different in any way... but Skald specifically references the Empire always telling them to leave the Giants be.

 

I've never been big on doing radiant bounties, so i can't say for certain if Brina offers the same quests... UESP notes the Giant Bounty under her 'Related Quests', but the page for the bounty its self specifically states that Skald offers the quest if he is Jarl.

[117649AR]

I have a feeling that the Empire's progressivism began as a means of ingratiating themselves with the common folk and traditionally marginalized groups in conquered territories, strengthening their strategic position in the regions. Over time these policies would have been internalized by Imperial culture: this would would explain the aggressive and expansionist spin that has mellowed into a general cultural attitude. And at the very least, the Legion's racial diversity even among its ranking officers should be evidence of Imperial tolerance.

[MidbossVyers]

I recall hearing the line when I played the game, but could someone look up a quote, if possible? I recall that if the Stormcloaks take Markarth or win the Civil War, one of the NPCs will say something along the lines of "The Stormcloaks have taken Markarth? Maybe Talos really is on their side." It's most likely one of the more neutral NPCs, but does anyone know who exactly says it?

Lisbet says this line. After a Stormcloak victory, this is one of her random greetings.

[Lachdonin]

 

I recall hearing the line when I played the game, but could someone look up a quote, if possible? I recall that if the Stormcloaks take Markarth or win the Civil War, one of the NPCs will say something along the lines of "The Stormcloaks have taken Markarth? Maybe Talos really is on their side." It's most likely one of the more neutral NPCs, but does anyone know who exactly says it?

 

Lisbet says this line. After a Stormcloak victory, this is one of her random greetings.

I'm not really sure the point of religious statements though... We also have a Priestess in Solsthiem who thinks the Tribunal still exist, and that the Dunmeri people were too quick to turn their backs on them in favour of the Daedra.

 

But we know 2 of the Tribunal are dead, and one is a colossal dick who peaced out to party with Magnus. We also know that Talos is a raging egomaniac who hates traditionalism and a backward focus.