Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

As for necromancy being a crime... Has anyone seen the Johnny Depp version of Sleepy Hollow? The main reason that Johnny Depp's portrayal of Ichabod got sent to the new world was because many of his methods for solving crimes, etc. were considered "heresy". The main example was that officials were uncomfortable with Ichabod's suggestion for autopsies of the deceased because those officials, many of them religious, considered autopsy to be "defilement of the dead".

 

See how moronic someone nowadays would appear if they said that autopsy was heretical? That's how I view people who consider necromancy a crime. While I don't consider necromancy a crime, many actions associated with necromancy are, such as murder and grave robbing, but just like in RL, if the cadavers are obtained legally, I don't see a problem with it.

[monganfinn]

 

if the cadavers are obtained legally, I don't see a problem with it.

And the soul?? Not every corpse is reanimated with a lesser daedric spirit, many necromancy spells use the souls of the deceased, torturing them and difiling them.

Morrowind has a similar approach to what you defend, those certified by the temple of the Tribunal were allowed to use necromancy in limited ways, with legaly aquired corpses and so on, then there were also the necromantic creations used to guard the family tombs: according to "Revenants need to be exterminated" or similar, its a Dunmeri text saying that while Vampires and rogue necromancers need to be killed those ancestor spirits that are bound to the family protection because of duty and "love" arent unholy. (and I kind of agree with that, if the spirits of the dead came back by themselves or with help, who are we to say its bad/evil)

 

And to roughly quote Vanus Galerion(founder of the mages guild) - not every necromancer commits heinous crimes, but the possibility is there and its a damn fin line between what can be argued is morally correct and should be lawfull and that which isnt. Nor is it possible to dabble in necromancy, as even the smallest spells corrupt the soul and need the shedding of blood.

 

Your argument is like Mannimarco´s: those stupid un-intellectual do not realise what could be achieved with necromancy - but achieved for who?

 

In ESO there is an altmer Lich by the name of Vastaria?: she tried to act like Ichabod, she invented a necromantic spell that allowed casters to catch the soul of a departed before he ascended to Aetherius or whatever other afterlife, the soul could then be questioned - for solving crimes for example and finally safely realesed to the afterlife. Galerion even came to her presentation of the newly manufactered spell, but he still admonished it and called it dangerous. Even the author of the book(one of Vastaria´s students) called the potential of misuse "enormous".

 

Just think of what could be achieved with necromancy! What power we could gain!

Great undead legions - we would never need to lose our loved ones in war anymore if we just all use dead bodies in battle

no fear of death anymore - Lichdom, at the price of needing to torture countless innocent or not so innocent souls in the process, Lichdom the ultimate goal of every necromancer: did you know that the few books we have on the subject say that a Lich needs to torture the souls he uses to achieve it? The greater the pain he causes the greater his power in unlife.

summoning + catching souls for the benefit of all - isnt it beautiful, to be able to say your loved ones good by a last time? What however if the guy who summons you needs you for enchanting and you then end up in the soul cairn? Still good?

 

TES Necromancy isnt the cute reanimation of corpses with electrical signals that simulate life, its the eternal or at least occasional enslavement of dead souls! As a living being you may argue necromancy isnt a crime but once you are dead and called back to earth to tear apart your own family on behest of you summoner you as sure as hell will consider it a crime. Furthermore no spirit would just serve the summoner willingly, each dead soul needs to be made willing by torture.

 

Grave robbing, murder, those arent the crimes for which necromancy is considered unethical, its the defilement of the soul and the potential for abuse this art gives its wielder. Because in TES the soul, or its parts if you want to be technical, are a thing.

 

So yes, there are necromancy spells which are positive and I personally don´t consider ever application of necromancy as bad, for example the draugr of Skyrim; if those Nords were mumified willingly and serve the various barrow lords willingly in undeath who am I to judge that. However the way most TES necromancer handle their power, yes its evil. Legally obtained corpses? Nah, that girl over there is so good locking she´ll gonna make a good servant in undeath, Im gonna preserve her beauty for all eternity. - or: I need more, more you hear me! That asshats forces are overrunning my own, quickly go into town and cull some. etc

 

Please tell the warmaidens of Yngvild barrow that necromancy isnt a crime. Or the various slaves who were used in necromancy spells by the Dunmer and Sload. Its a huge power and thus theres a huge potential for abuse, and humans, ... or mer and beastfolk, just arent trustworthy enough not to misuse it.

 

And then there´s the whole issue with Molag Bal...

[monganfinn]

Coming back to the original topic of this thread...

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Flight_from_the_Thalmor

Important bits are in red.

 

Flight from the Thalmor

by Hadrik Oaken-Heart

A written epitaph of a Nordic skald.

Dearest reader: The work you are about to experience has been copied and duplicated, so that the story it relates can be spread throughout the Empire. But make no mistake - this is not a work of fiction. The events chronicled in this account are all true, were originally documented in a private journal (which now remains safely guarded in the House of Quills in Hammerfell) and occurred not more than a year before this book was printed.

- Ashad Ibn Khaled, High Scribe, House of Quills, Hammerfell

http://www.uesp.net/w/images/thumb/4/48/I_letter.png/30px-I_letter.pngt's been nine days. Nine days since I slipped my bonds. Nine days since I strangled my captor with my own chains. And nine days since I rushed headlong into the night, always listening, but never looking back.

But in order to understand my current predicament, one must first understand where I came from, and just where this story began.

My name is Hadrik Oaken-Heart, and I am a proud Nord of Skyrim. I am a skald by trade, and received my formal training at the Bards College in Solitude. For years, I made my occupation as a traveling musician and minstrel, and even served several stints as war-bard in service to the armies of the various Jarls.

And it's fairly safe to say that if I weren't a bard, I never would have gotten into this mess to begin with.

My troubles began when I first started singing about Talos, the Ninth and greatest Divine, beloved of the people of Skyrim. Turns out, he's not so beloved by the Thalmor.

Ah yes, the Thalmor. As common as a head cold in Skyrim these days, and just as annoying. Or so I thought at the time, before their true power and inlfuence [sic] made itself known.

For those not in the know, the Thalmor are Skyrim's recently honored "guests" - high elves of the Aldmeri Dominion who were gracious enough not to wipe us all out during the Great War.

But, as every Nord of Skyrim knows, Thalmor graciousness comes at a terrible price. One of the stipulations of the White-Gold Concordat - the peace treaty between our peoples - was the abolishment of Talos worship. A man ascend to godhood? Preposterous, claim the Thalmor. And so, the open worship of Talos has been outlawed in Skyrim, and actively enforced in those cities where the Thalmor have a tangible presence. Cities, I might add, in which the Empire has the most secure foothold.

It was in one of these cities - Markarth, to be exact - where I made the conscious decision to defy the ban on Talos worship. And my defiance came in the form of - what else? - a song. For what bard who has spent time writing and rehearsing an original work can possible refrain from performing it? So perform it I did. Not once, not twice, but seven times. Once a day, for an entire week.

Now here's something most of my kinsman are unaware of: not all Thalmor in Skyrim are equal in station, or purpose. In fact, there is one group in particular that operates secretly, in the shadows - watching and waiting for those Nords who break the law, and continue their worship of almighty Talos. These are the Justiciars, and it is their job to enforce this, the most terrible of conditions of the White-Gold Concordat.

And so, I would have performed my song for an eighth time had I been given the opportunity. Sadly, I was not. For the Justiciars had been watching, had been waiting. Instead, I received a black sack over my head in the wee hours of the morning, a dreadfully uncomfortable wagon ride, and sinister promises that I would enjoy my "new home," which I came to realize was some sort of secret Thalmor prison or detention camp. One I was certain I would never leave alive.

It was at that moment I realized I needed to make my escape. No matter what - even if I died in the attempt - I had to slip the grasp of my captors. Better that than rot in some godsforsaken Thalmor jail until the end of time.

I finally got my chance when the wagon stopped, and we made camp for the night. One of my two Thalmor guards set off into the forest to hunt, leaving me alone with the other. And so, my account comes full circle.

It is now nine days later, and in that time, I have realized the true extent of my foolishness. I couldn't have sung the song just once? Or maybe twice? Or not at all? I couldn't have swallowed my stubborn Nord pride and realized just how much power and influence the Thalmor truly have over the Jarls?

No. I could not. So now I run. Like a hare from the hound, I run. Always moving, rarely resting, never sleeping. But the Thalmor dog my every move. Where will I go? How will I escape their grasp? I honestly don't know. The only thing I now understand for certain is this: if the agents of the Aldmeri Dominion cannot have your soul, then they will take your very life.

My name is Hadrik Oaken-Heart, and I am a proud Nord of Skyrim. Remember me. For soon I will be dead.

 

The book turns up in 1E201 in Dengeir´s house and other places. We learn right at the top that it was found and written one year before print. Let´s say that it spread very quickly, in under a year from Hammerfell to Skyrim. This makes it still happen some time before Ulfric killed Torygg. As that happened in 201 too.

Also note that the original author did not mention the Stormcloak rebellion, and he spoke of all the Jarls, so an open rebellion at the time of its writing can be safely dismissed.

 

So ... Thalmor Justiciars were in Skyrim already before the outbreak of Ulfric´s rebellion. Debunking the argument that Ulfric´s rebellion called the Thalmor into Skyrim. It might have been the Markarth Incident, but not the Stormcloak rebellion.

 

As to why I believe this book to be absolutely correct while I mistrust others? I dont think the Redguards are dumb enough to believe the Nords wouldnt notice the contradiction of the book against their own memories to when the Thalmor arrived in Skyrim.

 

All in agreement?

[Caerulean]

What's 'objectively' wrong with Necromancy is that it terribly needs continuous supplies of dead bodies and, basing on game mechanics, low-skill necromancers cannot maintain reanimated bodies for a long time. And so they'd need more bodies, and most of these necromancers do gather bodies by killing or stealing.

 

 

 

for example the draugr of Skyrim; if those Nords were mumified willingly and serve the various barrow lords willingly in undeath who am I to judge that.

 

If I remember correctly, the Draugrs were cursed by the Dragons with undeath for treachery. I may have to look this up. :3

 

 

 

Its a huge power and thus theres a huge potential for abuse, and humans, ... or mer and beastfolk, just arent trustworthy enough not to misuse it.

 

I agree. And remember the random encounter with the man and a necromancy staff. He tells us that it belonged to his grandfather who was a great(?) necromancer, and decided to try to pick up his 'legacy', only that he seems to have no aptitude for it.

 

Other than that, many people seems to be crazy about immortality. We already have vampires and their cattle system, which I'd say is a form of 'kidnapping', and Movarth who planned to take over Morthal. Then there are Malkoran with Dawnbreaker and Malyn Varen with Azura's Star, the former collecting casualties of the civil war and the latter collecting live souls to be sacrificed.

 

Like termites they are, slowly destroying Skyrim from the inside. Imagine if the player character didn't come to end their evil schemes, what then? More dead bodies to toy with as the number of casualties from the civil war increases.

[monganfinn]

 

If I remember correctly, the Draugrs were cursed by the Dragons with undeath for treachery. I may have to look this up. :3

 

What of Olaf One Eye, Borgas and others who lived after the dragon war? What of the loyal dragonpriests? Why would those be cursed with undeath? On the other hand if you enter Ysgramor´s or yngol´s tombs, you find ghosts instead of draugr. Why would people who are cursed with undeath need mumification tools found in most barrows? etc

 

Look no further than Bleakfalls Barrow, that guy guarded the dragonstone, and thus clearly was a follower of the dragoncult just like the priests. And yet they were all cursed with undeath?

 

Did the dragons really curse the collective Nord race with undeath for the treachery of some?

In Bloodmoon/Morrowind you have red eyed draugr who the Skaal say are cursed too, but not because of the dragons but because of them eating manflesh.

 

Two different curses? Would the dragon curse not also affect the dead Nords in Solstheim?

 

Hevnoraak for example sought a way to return to life - the priest with the blood tanks, so how does the curse rumour fit with that? And do you know of the book "Among the draugr"? How does the "life transfer" described within fit together with a cursed forced on them?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Amongst_the_Draugr

 

IMO the Nords practiced wide spread necromancy and the draugr a type of semi liches. In modern Tamrielic necromancy liches need to torture their victims to achieve lichdom, only a totured soul works for them. And yet we see no torture devices in the nordic ruins! So IMO the ancient Nords found another way, less direct and it takes longer but it replaces the massive need of totured souls for lichdom with a long term pyramid system where the lower level draugr feed their barrow lord with life until his ascencion to new life.

[monganfinn]

Ironically the Ayleid, who worshipped Meridia, were huge fans of necromancy and lichdom.

[Caerulean]

xD You needed not take what I said about the Draugr seriously. I said that I may have to look that up, but now that I have, it seems that it was a common misconception that the Divines cursed the Draugr for worshipping the Dragons. Turns out, they were buried willingly or unwillingly along with their Dragon Priests, to serve as life sources for the priests and so that they'd rise again beyond death to continue their worship.

 

"(Un) Unslaad Krosis", which the Draugr say, literally translates to "(Our) Eternal Sorrow" could mean that they are indeed sad souls bound to the one they served in life. Loosely, Paarthunax used the word "Krosis" as "Sorry/My apologies". A less literal translation could be "Long live, Krosis" and this would imply their eternal worship of Krosis, one of the most powerful Dragon Priests.

 

"Daanik Ah Dov", the other phrase they say, literally translates to "Doomed Dragonhunter". This could simply mean as a threat to the player character who is the Dragonborn, and it is known that previous Dragonborn(s) and the Blades hunt the Dragons. It may also imply that the Draugr saying it was a Dragonhunter in life, but was captured and buried alive with the other Draugr.

 

^ Do not credit me for this as these aren't my original words. I just did a quick read by Googling.

 

Regarding the Ayleids, they did not only worship Meridia, but were also large-scale worshippers of various Daedric Princes, and were also known for their talent, skill, and interest in advanced magic. But yes, it is ironic since history says that they worshipped Meridia/Merid-Nunda in high regard as their representation of Light, being one of their Four Elements. No idea how much that stands for all of the Ayleids. Their wide worship of Daedric Princes was one of the reasons the Divines supported or willed the war against the Heartland High/Wild Elves, who seem to have a share of superiority complex like their High-Elven kin. *shrug*

 

Just found this. - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra_Worship:_The_Ayleids

[Lachdonin]

 

Did any war crimes happen in Markarth?

I say it cannot be proven and thus shouldnt be made a major point in CW discussions, a scholar who came to the city later claims so, anyone else who was there doesn´t mention it, what we experience ingame contradicts it - not the first example of imperial propaganda.

 

Fair enough. I disagree, but i don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on the subject. Based on the exact same information, I see Ulfric as at least complicit in the events being described as War Crimes. Whether or not it was conducted under his order is irrelevant, because that's not part of the criteria for responsibility.

 

 

 

Yes, before the founding of modern Skyrim during Tiber Septim´s reign.

 

Before the founding of the Alessian Empire.

 

 

 

Not my point exactly, but the quote from MK or another dev "Nedes =/= Atmorans, its propaganda of a bygone regime" is quite clear IMO.

 

That was actually a statement from Kurk Kuhlmann, delivered in-universe through a scholar that is notorious for being unreliable. Fal Droon even goes so far so to deny the existence of Dragon Breaks.

 

 

 

IMO wrong, the first nordic empire clearly also encompassed the Reach. Harald is accredited with having conquered all of Skyrim and we see ancient nordic ruins in both Falkreath and the Reach, two regions traditionally rather associated with the Colovian estates and the Forsworn. So clearly the ancient Nords had control over all of present day Skyrim. Even the Dwemer were chased from Skyrim following the Aetherium wars by the Nords for a time. We do not hear of Harald conquering any human tribes.

 

It's actually not nearly as clear as that. We know that Dwemer presence in Skyrim persisted well into the 4th and 5th centuries of the 1st Era, and likely right up to their disappearance. Nordic 'victories' against them were mostly under King Gellir, who held the Title of High King and thus had to come after Harald (though his actual reign is unknown). The Dwemeri presence in the Reach thus indicates that the Nords did not have total claim over the region during the period.

 

Similarly, we're told that Hestra was the one to first pacify the Reachmen, which wouldn't occur until centuries AFTER this.

 

The Emperor's Guide also indicates that it was Reman who divided the Reach between the states of High Rock and Skyrim in order to divide the local Chieftans.

 

So the Reach being part of Skyrim, historically, is dubious. As is their surprise at discovering mannish races elsewhere during their initial conquests, since we know there were already enslaved tribes in Cyrodiil, and the Nedes had almost wiped our the Chimer PRIOR to their collapse into the Tribes which were present during the First Nordic Empire.

 

So we know, for a fact, that other mannish populations existed before Harald unified Skyrim, and that these populations were widespread well before the First Nordic Empire. In fact, considering the bequeathing of the Eastern Reach to Skyrim seems to have happened under Reman Cyrodiil's reign, it's likely that the earliest conquests of High Rock under the First Nordic Empire would have been campaigns against the ancestors of Reachmen, as well as against the Dwemer who had a foothold in those same mountains.

 

Ironically the Ayleid, who worshipped Meridia, were huge fans of necromancy and lichdom.

 

SOME Ayleid worshipped Meridia. Some worshipped Molag Bal. Many others (possibly the majority, given the nature of the Imperial Palace and the 10 Ancestors, as well as the Cult of the Divines) worshipped the Aedra.

 

The Ayleid were not a unified people, they were a collection of city states, each with their own religious preferences, armies and Kings. Some of these states went so far as to side with the Alessians against their own kin-folk.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Lachdonin

[monganfinn]

I disagree, but i don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on the subject.

Out of curiosity, what exactly do you disagree with? With me doubting the book of Arrianus? My interpretation of Braig´s dialogue? ...

Before the founding of the Alessian Empire.

Cannot be proven! How do you explain the vast amount of ancient Nordic ruins in the Reach, Falkreath etc Gauldur´s tower stands smack dab in the middle of the Reach. What of Rangvald? Two examples of important Nordic locations in the Reach, both long before Hestra´s time. You cannot argue that the ancient Nords had no presence in the region. They did not rule all of it, certainly the Dwemer existed there, never doubted that, but there are no accounts of Reachmen from that time.

 

Lachdonin

That was actually a statement from Kurk Kuhlmann, delivered in-universe through a scholar that is notorious for being unreliable. Fal Droon even goes so far so to deny the existence of Dragon Breaks.

Me

... MK or another dev ...

 

And it was under the guise of Hasphat Antabolis and not Fal Droon, and all other indications point to it as well. The culture alone is vastly different. And the Kothringi? I mean living in the Blackmarsh would probably change anyone with the Hist around, but they were vastly different.

 

We know that Dwemer presence in Skyrim persisted well into the 4th and 5th centuries of the 1st Era, and likely right up to their disappearance. Nordic 'victories' against them were mostly under King Gellir, who held the Title of High King and thus had to come after Harald (though his actual reign is unknown). The Dwemeri presence in the Reach thus indicates that the Nords did not have total claim over the region during the period.

Never doubted that, nor argued against it. I used the Dwemer as an example that the Nords fought in that region and even against the Dwemer. Yet there are no mentions of the Reachman? Why? To inimportant? Not existing? Do you srsly want to tell me that the Nords would conquer the Dwemer but not mind the Reachman?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Aetherium_Wars

In the span of three short years, the great dwarven cities of Skyrim, from Markarth to the Velothi Mountains, fell before the armies of the High King.

Cities that had held fast against the Nords for over a hundred years crumbled abruptly and without warning.

If the Nords managed to dislodge the Dwemer from their strongholds they would have fought against the Reachmen as well, if there were any. Yet no mention of them.

Similarly, we're told that Hestra was the one to first pacify the Reachmen, which wouldn't occur until centuries AFTER this.

Exactly my point! She was the first to pacify them, because before the Direnni came into Skyrim following the Nord Empire´s collapse there were no Reachmen to be found in the Reach!

The Emperor's Guide also indicates that it was Reman who divided the Reach between the states of High Rock and Skyrim in order to divide the local Chieftans.

I admit that I forgot about Reman. But what does it matter if the Reach came to Skyrim with Tiber or Reman?

So the Reach being part of Skyrim, historically, is dubious.

We know that the ancient Nords had an Empire stretching across Skyrim, High Rock and Morrowind, all the way down to Cyrodiil. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:First_Empire_of_the_Nords

The Western Reach in High Rock was retaken by the Aldmer.

Unless you say UESP lies too: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/High_Rock , the Nords lost the western Reach to the Direnni until the fall of the Direnny hegemony. A perfect time for the Reachmen to be left behind the Reach.

As is their surprise at discovering mannish races elsewhere during their initial conquests, since we know there were already enslaved tribes in Cyrodiil, and the Nedes had almost wiped our the Chimer PRIOR to their collapse into the Tribes which were present during the First Nordic Empire.

We have no mention of them meeting any other human race, please tell me where you take your belief from. You will have noticed you didn´t mention any tribes appearing in Skyrim - where the Falmer dwelled, at the time of the 1st Nordic Empire there where no real communities of men in Morrowind either. What does it matter if there where Nedes outside of Skyrim? If the Nords came to High Rock first they´d be surprised at the Bretons, otherwise at the ancient Cyrodiilians. My whole point is that there weren´t any Nedes in Skyrim!

So we know, for a fact, that other mannish populations existed before Harald unified Skyrim, and that these populations were widespread well before the First Nordic Empire.

But none of those you mentioned were in Skyrim, I dont even doubt that there were Nedes in Skyrim, the tale of Lamae Beolfag clearly shows there were some. But they don´t claim to be Reachmen, on the contrary they lived on the coast and thus clearly weren´t reachmen and the names of their tribes werent like anything the Reachmen have. Furthermore we dont know when Lamae lived and it could very well be that when the Nords arrived those tribes had been killed off by the Falmer.

In fact, considering the bequeathing of the Eastern Reach to Skyrim seems to have happened under Reman Cyrodiil's reign, it's likely that the earliest conquests of High Rock under the First Nordic Empire would have been campaigns against the ancestors of Reachmen, as well as against the Dwemer who had a foothold in those same mountains.

Sadly we know for a fact from the High Rock uesp link above that the Direnni ruled High Rock even before Nedes arrived there. And that the Nords thought the Bretons to be Aldmer at first. So yes, the Nords fought the ancestors of the Reachmen/BRetons, while those were Direnni slaves - my point!

 

I say, there is NO indication whatsoever that there existed Reachmen (unless in the form of elven slaves) in the eastern Reach at the time of the Nordic Empire. I know I cannot prove that there werent any, the Devil´s Proof is kinda hard, (especially as the devs can retcon it). But please tell me where you get your conviction from that there were any? Your argument is baseless, without any supportive points beside there being nothing that explicitily states the contrary and the claims of the Reachmen themselves.

 

SOME Ayleid worshipped Meridia. Some worshipped Molag Bal. Many others (possibly the majority, given the nature of the Imperial Palace and the 10 Ancestors, as well as the Cult of the Divines) worshipped the Aedra.

 

The Ayleid were not a unified people, they were a collection of city states, each with their own religious preferences, armies and Kings. Some of these states went so far as to side with the Alessians against their own kin-folk.

I know I spoke too much in general, I never meant to say that they worshipped only Meridia. Still, Umaril? You cannot argue that Meridia had a stake in Ayleid culture. The Feathered Elves, feathers, light from the stars etc.

[monganfinn]

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

Out of Atmora (07/10/08):

And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes != Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/kurt-kuhlmann-posts

Kurt Kuhlmann has both a regular account, Maturin, and an in-character roleplay account, Hasphat Antabolis. I've labeled the in-character snippets with (HA) for clarity.

On the origin of Nedes

The usual Imperial arrogance. The hoary old "Out of Atmora" theory has been widely discredited (no reputable archaeologist would publicly support it these days), but the Imperial Geographers continue to beat the drum of the Nordic Fatherland in the best tradition of the Septim Empire. They seem to think that the imprimature of officialdom gives their outdated scholarship added weight -- which, unfortunately, it appears to in the eyes of the ever-gullible public which continues to snap up the latest Pocket Guides along with the rest of their Imperial Certified pablum. (HA)

-So it was both of them, decisive enough?

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Skyrim

In the 113th year of the First Era, the entirety of modern Skyrim was under the reign of King Harald, and still, it continued to expand. Leaving their snowy valleys and mountains, the Nords attacked the Dwemer of neighboring Resdayn, the Altmer and Bretons of High Rock and lent aid to the rising slave rebellion in Cyrodiil, which was to end the Ayleid rule of the south.

-"all of modern Skyrim", would include the Reach and there is no mention of them attacking the Dwemer or Altmer and Bretons/Nedes inside Skyrim or rather anywhere but where those should be if Skyrim under Harald included the Reach!

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frontier,_Conquest

New archeological excavations date the earliest human settlements in Hammerfell, High Rock, and Cyrodiil at ME800-1000,

- no mention of ancient Nedic settlements in Skyrim!

In High Rock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil, and possibly Morrowind, they did just that, and the Nedic peoples flourished and expanded over the last centuries of the Merethic Era. Only in Skyrim did this accommodation break down, an event recorded in the Song of Return.

- again, no mention of ancient Nedic settlements in Skyrim!

When the Nord armies of the First Empire finally entered High Rock and Cyrodiil, they found Bretons and proto-Cyrodiils already living there among the Elves. Indeed, the Nords found it difficult to distinguish between Elf and Breton, the two races had already intermingled to such a degree.

 

- no mention of Nedic tribes in Skyrim, and they were surprised about the Nedes in High Rock and Cyrodiil.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/High_Rock

There is evidence that early beast men of one variety or another may have been the original inhabitants of High Rock, but the Aldmer coming from Summerset Isle were the first to settle and form permanent communities. The early Nedic people who arrived next were stumbling upon a highly sophisticated culture, and were quickly overwhelmed and absorbed. One of the earliest tales of Khosey describes a Nord raiding party attacking a group of what they presumed to be Aldmer, but who were, on closer inspection, a mongrel race between elf and human, the remnants of the earlier lost Nedic tribe. They were somewhat awkwardly called "Manmeri," but we know them today as Bretons.

-proof that the Aldmer ruled over the ancestors of the Bretons and Reachmen

-proof that at the time of the Skyrim Conquest and Empire the Aldmer still ruled over the Nedes there

-proof that the Nords encountered Nedic tribes when attacking Aldmer holdings, thus they wouldn´t have met any Nedes in Skyrim as there were no Aldmer there

For most of the First Era, the elves kept their hold on the land, with the Nords founding fortified towns along the coasts to support their pillaging parties, such as Daggerfall, which as a kingdom would have a profound influence on High Rock in years to come.

-would you tell me how the Nords would dance around the Reach to built Daggerfall?

Taking advantage of the internal strife in Skyrim, the Hegemony began taking land north and south of High Rock, claiming portions of Skyrim and present day Hammerfell.

-"claiming portions of Skyrim", the Reach??

... many other Nordic cities became Breton not by any act of war, but simply by being assimilated by them.

-and once the Direnni were defeated the Bretons moved into the vaccuum, in High Rock, and IMO in the Reach.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

Khosey, in his 'Tamrilean Tractates,' transcribes a firsthand account of the "discovery" of the Bretons by a Nordic hunting party. The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans. Indeed, the hunting party attacked them thinking they were some new strain of Aldmeri, halting their slaughter only when one of the oldest began to wail for his life, a shrieking plea that was spoken in broken Nordic. When word of this reached Windhelm, the Nords reasoned that the "Manmeri" beyond the Reach were, in fact, descended from human slaves taken during the Elven destruction of Saarthal.

-no mention of humans in the Reach, even though the Reach is named

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reachmen

Following the collapse of the First Empire of the Nords, the Western Reach was retaken by the Aldmeri, who slaughtered the majority of Nord colonists; as a result, the Nordic ancestry of the Reachmen is comparatively weak.

- their common ancestry to Nords was weak because the Reachmen came into the Reach at a time where the Nords didnt rule it because of the Direnni?

-note that the uesp page says that the Direnni killed by Aldmer who killed the Nords IN THE REACH.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Orcs_of_Skyrim

...there is mention in the histories of the Companions uprooting Orc strongholds even as they burned the Snow Elves from the land.

-still no mention of Reachmen

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Harald

During his reign, which started in 1E 143, the Elves were finally driven from the present boundaries of Skyrim (at least, driven from most of the inhabited surface, as Dwemer and Falmer remained underground).

- Dwemer underground, no mention of Reachmen, and present boundaries clearly includes the Reach

 

 

CW Topic:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Crown_of_Freydis

The crown rejected Asurn. It literally refused to be placed upon his head. In a rage, Asurn summoned his loyal followers and threatened to kill every member of the Moot if they didn't name him as the rightful king. He refused to be rejected by a crown. A soft-spoken member of the council rose from his chair. He challenged Asurn to combat, according to the law. The battle was short and to the point: Asurn was struck down. When the soft-spoken man took the crown and placed it easily upon his own head, a new High King of Skyrim was born. That was how Kjoric the White rose to power.

- so we actually have a semi precedent for Ulfric´s challenge of Torygg