Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Moksha8088]

Regarding Jarl Siddgeir of Falkreath, most likely he will sloth off his security briefings and spend his time rationalizing that his hands are of normal size. The worst part is his reliance on the Empire of Cyrodiil in usurping control from his trusted Uncle Dengeir. Former Jarl Dengeir had experience and Siddgeir was a wastrel, but once gold changed hands it was a done deal. He will probably rely on bandit raiders from Falkreath to Argonia as his most trusted advisors.

Say what you will, but Jarl Siddgeir is a staunch supporter of Vladimir Septim ever since Vladimir's intervention helped Siddgeir take the Falkreath Hold. Imperial intervention in Skyrim politics does not help Skyrim.

[Padre86]

 

Regarding Jarl Siddgeir of Falkreath, most likely he will sloth off his security briefings and spend his time rationalizing that his hands are of normal size. The worst part is his reliance on the Empire of Cyrodiil in usurping control from his trusted Uncle Dengeir. Former Jarl Dengeir had experience and Siddgeir was a wastrel, but once gold changed hands it was a done deal. He will probably rely on bandit raiders from Falkreath to Argonia as his most trusted advisors.

Say what you will, but Jarl Siddgeir is a staunch supporter of Vladimir Septim ever since Vladimir's intervention helped Siddgeir take the Falkreath Hold. Imperial intervention in Skyrim politics does not help Skyrim.

 

No offense, but your thinly veiled political references are pretty over-done and trite. Why not just keep to the original topic?

[khyloskye]

 

 

I didn't miss that part, I dismissed it. Saying something can never happen because it never has is not a great argument.

 

 

But an argument that something can happen, despite no historical precedence for it and no justification for it's occurrence beyond wishful thinking, is a far better one.

 

I never said it was a better one. I just said it was as equally possible as any other scenario. You're the one who said a specific scenario was obviously more inclined to happen than the other, not me. Tamrielic history is not completely anchored to its narrative past. It's arguably more dependent on the whims of Bethesda's writers than anything else. The Warp in the West is a prime example of this.

 

Like I said, it's silly to claim historical precedence as the best reason for narrative continuity in a completely fictional world. If Bethesda thinks a certain plot will fatten their wallets better, they will do so...and the writers will make it work somehow.

Edited January 2, 2017 by khyloskye

[monganfinn]

I never said it was a better one. I just said it was as equally possible as any other scenario.

So can we agree that an alliance is possible?

 

Tamrielic history is not completely anchored to its narrative past. It's arguably more dependent on the whims of Bethesda's writers than anything else.

If we take into account what Beth may want to do in the future then we can scrap much of this discussion, after all they can change the course of Tamriel´s history outside of the bounds of logic.

[khyloskye]

 

I never said it was a better one. I just said it was as equally possible as any other scenario.

So can we agree that an alliance is possible?

 

Tamrielic history is not completely anchored to its narrative past. It's arguably more dependent on the whims of Bethesda's writers than anything else.

If we take into account what Beth may want to do in the future then we can scrap much of this discussion, after all they can change the course of Tamriel´s history outside of the bounds of logic.

 

Well of course it's possible, I mean we aren't arguing actual history here. And yes, this discussion is mostly moot...much of what we are all talking about here doesn't matter in the least. At best we are arguing about what we think Bethesda's intentions are(both past and future), and at worst what we personally think it should be. It's still interesting to discuss it though. :)

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the future looks like a loose confederation of independent groups coming together to defeat a common enemy. Art reflects reality, and fantasy writing is no exception. Rogue One is a perfect example of this: a small group of freedom fighters desperately rebelling against the all-powerful Empire <-- it's no coincidence that the Rebellion is multicultural and the Empire is homogeneously white. The writers are purposely injecting that not-so-subtle reflection of modern times into the narrative. It's a microcosm of current politics in America, Lucas actually had this same thing in mind for the originals(though to a lesser degree).

 

In Tamriel, the Dominion certainly fits the bill of homogeneous overlords way better than the Empire...I mean the Empire is multicultural by definition. But the Empire is also known for being a heavy-handed and bureaucratic ruler that doesn't always have their respective client-states best interests at heart. This is plainly seen in the White-Gold Concordant. So while they aren't really akin to the Empire of Star Wars, they are certainly much less comparable to the Rebels in terms of character and ideals. This is all speculation of course. But given the current politics of the day, and the fact the entertainment industry historically trends towards the left side of the political spectrum, I'd gamble that the majority of fictional fantasy stories written in the next four years that involve rebellion, revolution, civil war, etc. will have a common theme: multicultural liberty vs mono-cultural order.

 

I hope I'm wrong actually, that would get boring really fast...

[Padre86]

 

 

I never said it was a better one. I just said it was as equally possible as any other scenario.

So can we agree that an alliance is possible?

 

Tamrielic history is not completely anchored to its narrative past. It's arguably more dependent on the whims of Bethesda's writers than anything else.

If we take into account what Beth may want to do in the future then we can scrap much of this discussion, after all they can change the course of Tamriel´s history outside of the bounds of logic.

 

Well of course it's possible, I mean we aren't arguing actual history here. And yes, this discussion is mostly moot...much of what we are all talking about here doesn't matter in the least. At best we are arguing about what we think Bethesda's intentions are(both past and future), and at worst what we personally think it should be. It's still interesting to discuss it though. :smile:

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the future looks like a loose confederation of independent groups coming together to defeat a common enemy. Art reflects reality, and fantasy writing is no exception. Rogue One is a perfect example of this: a small group of freedom fighters desperately rebelling against the all-powerful Empire <-- it's no coincidence that the Rebellion is multicultural and the Empire is homogeneously white. The writers are purposely injecting that not-so-subtle reflection of modern times into the narrative. It's a microcosm of current politics in America, Lucas actually had this same thing in mind for the originals(though to a lesser degree).

 

In Tamriel, the Dominion certainly fits the bill of homogeneous overlords way better than the Empire...I mean the Empire is multicultural by definition. But the Empire is also known for being a heavy-handed and bureaucratic ruler that doesn't always have their respective client-states best interests at heart. This is plainly seen in the White-Gold Concordant. So while they aren't really akin to the Empire of Star Wars, they are certainly much less comparable to the Rebels in terms of character and ideals. This is all speculation of course. But given the current politics of the day, and the fact the entertainment industry historically trends towards the left side of the political spectrum, I'd gamble that the majority of fictional fantasy stories written in the next four years that involve rebellion, revolution, civil war, etc. will have a common theme: multicultural liberty vs mono-cultural order.

 

I hope I'm wrong actually, that would get boring really fast...

 

 

Not that I disagree with your multi-cultural vs mono-cultural theory as it relates to modern media and entertainment, but I think you're reading into the Empire vs AD conflict a bit too much, or rather you're focusing on the wrong aspects. Lore-wise the High Elves have always been somewhat snooty and arrogant towards the other races, and they've always had outright disdain for the Empire and the deities they worship...the historical defeats the High Elves suffered at the hands Alessia and Tiber Septim likely explain most of that. And while I think most players have a hard time empathizing with the Thalmor agenda, there is at least a context to their behaviors and actions...after all, at one point it was Elven kingdoms that ruled most of Tamriel, in the same way that the Empire did in its heyday.

 

I think Bethesda's goal in gameplay and lore has always been to create an environment where there is no simple good vs evil conflict, but rather varying shades of gray. The AD is easily vilified now, and were in years past for treating most humans as nothing more than slaves, but they themselves also suffered horrendously from the political and religious backlash during the reign of the Alessian order. And a lot of people tend to overlook that there was a sizable minority of High Elves who sympathized with and even outright supported Alessia and her rebellion; and yet somehow they vanished from Cyrodil and the Tamrielic mainland all the same as did their more malign and cruel brethren.

 

Likewise, the Empire has the appearances of a mostly multi-cultural and benign Tamrielic kingdom, but when you crack open the history books you find that it has its own skeletons. It has relied on a very militant expansionism or very overt "gunboat" diplomacy in order to "acquire" and maintain many of its current provinces. And its recent decisions regarding Hammerfell, Morrowind, and Thalmor presence throughout much of its territory has demonstrated its willingness to sacrifice and/or marginalize its outer territories in order to preserve Cyrodil's power. And let's face it, the Empire, though multi-cultural in some aspects, is very much a kingdom that revolves around Cyrodil. Sure, at times there have been Imperial power brokers who were of a foreign race, but most of the big players are native to Cyrodil.

 

The same generalities can be applied to Skyrim, Morrowind, High Rock, ect. There are varying perspectives and histories on each of the provinces and races; it all depends on who is telling the story. I think Bethesda intentionally wrote the lore that way. And to be honest, I like that there is no simple good vs evil faction. For example I like reading about Tiber Septim and his exploits prior to and during his reign as Emperor; but I also like reading the suggestive hints here and there that he used under-handed tactics to exploit others and enhance his own power and prestige. The game is full of historical ambiguity, and unlike the Star Wars franchise, there is no obvious good side and bad side....much like Game of Thrones (the books not necessarily the tv show) there is something refreshingly original and realistic about creating that kind of fictional environment.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Padre86

[khyloskye]

 

 

Well of course it's possible, I mean we aren't arguing actual history here. And yes, this discussion is mostly moot...much of what we are all talking about here doesn't matter in the least. At best we are arguing about what we think Bethesda's intentions are(both past and future), and at worst what we personally think it should be. It's still interesting to discuss it though. :smile:

 

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the future looks like a loose confederation of independent groups coming together to defeat a common enemy. Art reflects reality, and fantasy writing is no exception. Rogue One is a perfect example of this: a small group of freedom fighters desperately rebelling against the all-powerful Empire <-- it's no coincidence that the Rebellion is multicultural and the Empire is homogeneously white. The writers are purposely injecting that not-so-subtle reflection of modern times into the narrative. It's a microcosm of current politics in America, Lucas actually had this same thing in mind for the originals(though to a lesser degree).

 

In Tamriel, the Dominion certainly fits the bill of homogeneous overlords way better than the Empire...I mean the Empire is multicultural by definition. But the Empire is also known for being a heavy-handed and bureaucratic ruler that doesn't always have their respective client-states best interests at heart. This is plainly seen in the White-Gold Concordant. So while they aren't really akin to the Empire of Star Wars, they are certainly much less comparable to the Rebels in terms of character and ideals. This is all speculation of course. But given the current politics of the day, and the fact the entertainment industry historically trends towards the left side of the political spectrum, I'd gamble that the majority of fictional fantasy stories written in the next four years that involve rebellion, revolution, civil war, etc. will have a common theme: multicultural liberty vs mono-cultural order.

 

I hope I'm wrong actually, that would get boring really fast...

 

 

Not that I disagree with your multi-cultural vs mono-cultural theory as it relates to modern media and entertainment, but I think you're reading into the Empire vs AD conflict a bit too much, or rather you're focusing on the wrong aspects. Lore-wise the High Elves have always been somewhat snooty and arrogant towards the other races, and they've always had outright disdain for the Empire and the deities they worship...the historical defeats the High Elves suffered at the hands Alessia and Tiber Septim likely explain most of that. And while I think most players have a hard time empathizing with the Thalmor agenda, there is at least a context to their behaviors and actions...after all, at one point it was Elven kingdoms that ruled most of Tamriel, in the same way that the Empire did in its heyday.

 

I think Bethesda's goal in gameplay and lore has always been to create an environment where there is no simple good vs evil conflict, but rather varying shades of gray. The AD is easily vilified now, and were in years past for treating most humans as nothing more than slaves, but they themselves also suffered horrendously from the political and religious backlash during the reign of the Alessian order. And a lot of people tend to overlook that there was a sizable minority of High Elves who sympathized with and even outright supported Alessia and her rebellion; and yet somehow they vanished from Cyrodil and the Tamrielic mainland all the same as did their more malign and cruel brethren.

 

Likewise, the Empire has the appearances of a mostly multi-cultural and benign Tamrielic kingdom, but when you crack open the history books you find that it has its own skeletons. It has relied on a very militant expansionism or very overt "gunboat" diplomacy in order to "acquire" and maintain many of its current provinces. And its recent decisions regarding Hammerfell, Morrowind, and Thalmor presence throughout much of its territory has demonstrated its willingness to sacrifice and/or marginalize its outer territories in order to preserve Cyrodil's power. And let's face it, the Empire, though multi-cultural in some aspects, is very much a kingdom that revolves around Cyrodil. Sure, at times there have been Imperial power brokers who were of a foreign race, but most of the big players are native to Cyrodil.

 

The same generalities can be applied to Skyrim, Morrowind, High Rock, ect. There are varying perspectives and histories on each of the provinces and races; it all depends on who is telling the story. I think Bethesda intentionally wrote the lore that way. And to be honest, I like that there is no simple good vs evil faction. For example I like reading about Tiber Septim and his exploits prior to and during his reign as Emperor; but I also like reading the suggestive hints here and there that he used under-handed tactics to exploit others and enhance his own power and prestige. The game is full of historical ambiguity, and unlike the Star Wars franchise, there is no obvious good side and bad side....much like Game of Thrones (the books not necessarily the tv show) there is something refreshingly original and realistic about creating that kind of fictional environment.

 

 

Lol, well I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I like the ambiguity too, especially in regards to whose point-of-view you are taking it from. There's that one Skyrim Bard's quest that I find particularly interesting, where ole legendary King Olaf One-Eye turns out to be not quite so legendary after all. I agree that Star Wars is way more black and white in terms of moral relativism(although Rogue One is probably the first one to challenge that at least a little bit), and that TES has much more realistic, and interesting, shades of grey in its narrative. I like that too. I mean, yes, Tamriel used to be a virtual homeland for all mer before humans arrived...from that point of view all humans everywhere in Tamriel could be seen as oppressive conquerors who should gtfo back to Atmora, Yokuda, Akavir(or wherever). Bethesda wants a certain amount of racial conflict to always be present in varying degrees, otherwise the narrative becomes bland real fast. Let's face it, violence and war is fun in a fantasy setting right?

 

That being said(and I also agree that the Empire certainly has its share of skeletons in the closet), I don't see Bethesda going back to the all-encompassing unity of a Tamriel under one nation any time soon. Perhaps in the distant future when they can flesh out other lands like the above-mentioned Akavir and Yokuda. But for now, they need Tamriel in conflict...if only to have something to do in the game lol. I disagree with others' notions of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks as racist bastards, after all they are only talking about Skyrim and not the whole continent. Every race has its homeland, Skyrim is no different. As such, I can totally see Bethesda having the Stormcloaks actually win the Civil War. At the very least, it makes the political map of Tamriel so much more interesting. I think Cyrodiil will shrink in political clout, but not in military power...I see them as the axle upon which the wheel of violence turns on Tamriel.

 

If I were working at Bethesda, I'd pitch the TES 6 story to take place in either Valenwood or Hammerfell. The former as a grass-roots rebellion against their AD masters, or the latter as the courageous defense of a lone province against the full might of the AD. That's assuming they follow chronolgically...Beth tends to jump around the timeline a lot. :P

[monganfinn]

 

Well of course it's possible, I mean we aren't arguing actual history here.

Well I always understood Lachonin to think an alliance against the AD to be pretty unlikely? So I wanted to point out there is no reason to not think it would be possible apart from his own scepticism.

 

And yes, this discussion is mostly moot...much of what we are all talking about here doesn't matter in the least.

I only meant to illustrate how pointless Lachdonin´s argument was that Tamrielic history depends less on prior examples but more on how Beth wants the story to go. As if we include Beth´s opinions into this discussion we can stop right now as we cannot foresee that.

 

And a lot of people tend to overlook that there was a sizable minority of High Elves who sympathized with and even outright supported Alessia and her rebellion; and yet somehow they vanished from Cyrodil and the Tamrielic mainland all the same as did their more malign and cruel brethren.

Not so much High Elves than Ayleid. And all that because some Imga couldn´t keep his mouth shut.

 

And to be honest, I like that there is no simple good vs evil faction.

Fully agree!

 

I mean, yes, Tamriel used to be a virtual homeland for all mer before humans arrived...from that point of view all humans everywhere in Tamriel could be seen as oppressive conquerors who should gtfo back to Atmora, Yokuda, Akavir(or wherever).

It works the other way around too, after all the Nedic tribes were probably native to Tamriel, and even the Nords originated from Tamriel and were just driven off to Atmora.

[MidbossVyers]

Legion supporters insist that the Thalmor endgame is the complete erasure of the mortal world. I agree. Therefore, the Empire should have never signed the White-Gold Concordat. If the Thalmor had the strength to destroy the Empire right then and there, they would have surely taken it. The WGC was not a means for the Empire to regain strength; it was a bluff for the Thalmor to regain strength. Given that the Emperor fell for it, it shows that he is a cowardly leader. The Thalmor needed the WGC just as much as the Empire, perhaps even more so, and if your enemy needs something, deny it with all your might, even if it seems rash initially.

[Padre86]

 

 

 

Well of course it's possible, I mean we aren't arguing actual history here. And yes, this discussion is mostly moot...much of what we are all talking about here doesn't matter in the least. At best we are arguing about what we think Bethesda's intentions are(both past and future), and at worst what we personally think it should be. It's still interesting to discuss it though. :smile:

 

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the future looks like a loose confederation of independent groups coming together to defeat a common enemy. Art reflects reality, and fantasy writing is no exception. Rogue One is a perfect example of this: a small group of freedom fighters desperately rebelling against the all-powerful Empire <-- it's no coincidence that the Rebellion is multicultural and the Empire is homogeneously white. The writers are purposely injecting that not-so-subtle reflection of modern times into the narrative. It's a microcosm of current politics in America, Lucas actually had this same thing in mind for the originals(though to a lesser degree).

 

In Tamriel, the Dominion certainly fits the bill of homogeneous overlords way better than the Empire...I mean the Empire is multicultural by definition. But the Empire is also known for being a heavy-handed and bureaucratic ruler that doesn't always have their respective client-states best interests at heart. This is plainly seen in the White-Gold Concordant. So while they aren't really akin to the Empire of Star Wars, they are certainly much less comparable to the Rebels in terms of character and ideals. This is all speculation of course. But given the current politics of the day, and the fact the entertainment industry historically trends towards the left side of the political spectrum, I'd gamble that the majority of fictional fantasy stories written in the next four years that involve rebellion, revolution, civil war, etc. will have a common theme: multicultural liberty vs mono-cultural order.

 

I hope I'm wrong actually, that would get boring really fast...

 

 

Not that I disagree with your multi-cultural vs mono-cultural theory as it relates to modern media and entertainment, but I think you're reading into the Empire vs AD conflict a bit too much, or rather you're focusing on the wrong aspects. Lore-wise the High Elves have always been somewhat snooty and arrogant towards the other races, and they've always had outright disdain for the Empire and the deities they worship...the historical defeats the High Elves suffered at the hands Alessia and Tiber Septim likely explain most of that. And while I think most players have a hard time empathizing with the Thalmor agenda, there is at least a context to their behaviors and actions...after all, at one point it was Elven kingdoms that ruled most of Tamriel, in the same way that the Empire did in its heyday.

 

I think Bethesda's goal in gameplay and lore has always been to create an environment where there is no simple good vs evil conflict, but rather varying shades of gray. The AD is easily vilified now, and were in years past for treating most humans as nothing more than slaves, but they themselves also suffered horrendously from the political and religious backlash during the reign of the Alessian order. And a lot of people tend to overlook that there was a sizable minority of High Elves who sympathized with and even outright supported Alessia and her rebellion; and yet somehow they vanished from Cyrodil and the Tamrielic mainland all the same as did their more malign and cruel brethren.

 

Likewise, the Empire has the appearances of a mostly multi-cultural and benign Tamrielic kingdom, but when you crack open the history books you find that it has its own skeletons. It has relied on a very militant expansionism or very overt "gunboat" diplomacy in order to "acquire" and maintain many of its current provinces. And its recent decisions regarding Hammerfell, Morrowind, and Thalmor presence throughout much of its territory has demonstrated its willingness to sacrifice and/or marginalize its outer territories in order to preserve Cyrodil's power. And let's face it, the Empire, though multi-cultural in some aspects, is very much a kingdom that revolves around Cyrodil. Sure, at times there have been Imperial power brokers who were of a foreign race, but most of the big players are native to Cyrodil.

 

The same generalities can be applied to Skyrim, Morrowind, High Rock, ect. There are varying perspectives and histories on each of the provinces and races; it all depends on who is telling the story. I think Bethesda intentionally wrote the lore that way. And to be honest, I like that there is no simple good vs evil faction. For example I like reading about Tiber Septim and his exploits prior to and during his reign as Emperor; but I also like reading the suggestive hints here and there that he used under-handed tactics to exploit others and enhance his own power and prestige. The game is full of historical ambiguity, and unlike the Star Wars franchise, there is no obvious good side and bad side....much like Game of Thrones (the books not necessarily the tv show) there is something refreshingly original and realistic about creating that kind of fictional environment.

 

 

Lol, well I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I like the ambiguity too, especially in regards to whose point-of-view you are taking it from. There's that one Skyrim Bard's quest that I find particularly interesting, where ole legendary King Olaf One-Eye turns out to be not quite so legendary after all. I agree that Star Wars is way more black and white in terms of moral relativism(although Rogue One is probably the first one to challenge that at least a little bit), and that TES has much more realistic, and interesting, shades of grey in its narrative. I like that too. I mean, yes, Tamriel used to be a virtual homeland for all mer before humans arrived...from that point of view all humans everywhere in Tamriel could be seen as oppressive conquerors who should gtfo back to Atmora, Yokuda, Akavir(or wherever). Bethesda wants a certain amount of racial conflict to always be present in varying degrees, otherwise the narrative becomes bland real fast. Let's face it, violence and war is fun in a fantasy setting right?

 

That being said(and I also agree that the Empire certainly has its share of skeletons in the closet), I don't see Bethesda going back to the all-encompassing unity of a Tamriel under one nation any time soon. Perhaps in the distant future when they can flesh out other lands like the above-mentioned Akavir and Yokuda. But for now, they need Tamriel in conflict...if only to have something to do in the game lol. I disagree with others' notions of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks as racist bastards, after all they are only talking about Skyrim and not the whole continent. Every race has its homeland, Skyrim is no different. As such, I can totally see Bethesda having the Stormcloaks actually win the Civil War. At the very least, it makes the political map of Tamriel so much more interesting. I think Cyrodiil will shrink in political clout, but not in military power...I see them as the axle upon which the wheel of violence turns on Tamriel.

 

If I were working at Bethesda, I'd pitch the TES 6 story to take place in either Valenwood or Hammerfell. The former as a grass-roots rebellion against their AD masters, or the latter as the courageous defense of a lone province against the full might of the AD. That's assuming they follow chronolgically...Beth tends to jump around the timeline a lot. :tongue:

 

 

1) I'm glad someone else noticed the injection of moral ambiguity, even if it was perhaps ever so subtle, into the Rebellion in Rogue One. I honestly enjoy seeing more realistic character development like that and I enjoyed and appreciated Rogue One much more than Force Awakens partly for that reason.

 

2) I agree conflict and disharmony is very important to Bethesda for reasons of gameplay and sensationalism (kind of like real-world politics and media). Controversy generates interest.

 

3) I hope Bethesda does the ES 6 in one of those areas as well; and I would love to see a continuation of the Thalmor conflict.

 

4) I personally agree that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks aren't racists, but rather are nationalists (sometimes those terms can overlap, but it's unfair to broadstroke people without first examining their individual motivations). I personally sympathize with Ulfric's cause when playing as a Dragonborn, Companion Nord warrior, for many reasons that I have already outlined. And I've done that knowing full well that Ulfric has plenty of his own faults. But yet, when I've played as an Imperial vampire hunter, or a Bosmer thief, I find that my role-playing can take me to supporting the Empire as well. Just like with the differing histories you encounter in Elder Scrolls, I think someone's perception of the Stormcloak vs Imperial Civil War will vary depending on how they role-play and perceive the different races and factions. So in that sense, there really is no right or wrong answer to the debate of which side is better and more worthy of your support.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Padre86