Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[48257]

skyrim belings to de nrd

Edited January 1, 2016 by 48257

[disi30]

I think much simpler about the situation.

 

The Imperials caught Ulfric somewhere west of Darkwater Crossing, this is actual far east of Skyrim and not their usual hunting ground. The surviving Stormcloaks, including Ulfric and any bystanders or witnesses were taken as prisoners.

The Stormcloaks expected to be put to show in Solitude.

 

On the way, the Imperials make stop in Helgen.

 

Every single prisoner is sentenced to death by beheading on the executioners block, just like that.

 

Some unlucky horse thief, who just happened to be in the area when arrested, is killed when he tries to flee.

 

Ralof and myself make it out of there, barely alive and under very lucky circumstances.

 

Imperials support the Thalmor and the Thalmor kill, arrest or torture everyone non-Thalmor. The Imperials have their own assassins squads, to become a member you have to kill a random civilian (similar to the Dark Brotherhood).

 

I really don't care about the few raciest idiots in Windhelm. They let the Dark-Elves and Argoniens from Morrowind live with them, they are neither tortured or hunted down like animals and arbitrarily sentenced to death. The Dark Elf woman, when you first enter Windhelm, actual confirms the guy you just overheard shouldn't be taken too seriously.

 

Imperials = Death

Stormcloaks = a way to survive.

[Lachdonin]

I think much simpler about the situation.

 

The Imperials caught Ulfric somewhere west of Darkwater Crossing, this is actual far east of Skyrim and not their usual hunting ground. The surviving Stormcloaks, including Ulfric and any bystanders or witnesses were taken as prisoners.

The Stormcloaks expected to be put to show in Solitude.

 

On the way, the Imperials make stop in Helgen.

 

Every single prisoner is sentenced to death by beheading on the executioners block, just like that.

 

Some unlucky horse thief, who just happened to be in the area when arrested, is killed when he tries to flee.

 

Ralof and myself make it out of there, barely alive and under very lucky circumstances.

 

Imperials support the Thalmor and the Thalmor kill, arrest or torture everyone non-Thalmor. The Imperials have their own assassins squads, to become a member you have to kill a random civilian (similar to the Dark Brotherhood).

 

I really don't care about the few raciest idiots in Windhelm. They let the Dark-Elves and Argoniens from Morrowind live with them, they are neither tortured or hunted down like animals and arbitrarily sentenced to death. The Dark Elf woman, when you first enter Windhelm, actual confirms the guy you just overheard shouldn't be taken too seriously.

 

Imperials = Death

Stormcloaks = a way to survive.

 

Most of that is wrong, though...

 

First, most of the people at Darkwater Crossing, a STORMCLOAK town, weren't arrested.

 

Second, Helgen isn't on route to Solitude, but it is on route to Cyrodiil, so the destination was likely the Imperial City.

 

Third, we know the Thalmor want the war to go on, and that they consider Ulfric an 'asset', They are also not present during the execution, or the aftermath, but are there when the Wagons roll in, implying they left very soon after. Since they don't want Ulfric dead, it's very clear that the executions were to PREVENT the Thalmor from taking custody of the prisoners. This shows A; The Empire does not support the Thalmor, and barely tollerates them. B; Tullius either suspects Elenwyn of propping up the Stormcloaks or is trying to be a touch more humane than handing people over for torture.

 

You try running from medieval justice and see if they're just going to chase after you. Lokir getting shot, running away from a prison lineup, would be perfectly acceptable in most parts of the world TODAY (even if it isn't exactly ethical) let alone in a Medieval world.

 

The Thalmor do not have the authority to arrest and torture anyone they want.

 

What assassins are you talking about?

 

You CAN'T think about it simply, because it's not a simple matter. It's like trying to simplify Organic Chemestry using nothing but 3 shapes of blocks from a 2 year olds toy. It can't be done.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Lachdonin

[kradus]

Can I just say something:

Helping the Imperials is the same as helping the Thalmor. And I aint becoming a Thalmor puppet, nor am I going to side with that douche Tullius.

 

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NOOOOORDS

 

From what we can tell, the Thalmor have provoked the civil war by manipulating Ulfric and people like him to be angry at the empire. That makes the rebels the puppets.

[MidbossVyers]

Yes, they did this assuming the Stormcloaks would not actually win, but if the Stormcloaks actually do win (with the Dragonborn helping them, this happens in a few days), it's like the Thalmor's ultimate plan just blew up in their face.

[TheVampireDante]

(with the Dragonborn helping them, this happens in a few days)

 

I would take the timescale to be downsized like most of the other elements within the game (like population amounts/settlement sizes, etc...).

 

It might only be a "few days" game time, but I would suspect that if it was written down to more realistic scale for the scenario it would be much longer.

[disi30]

 

I think much simpler about the situation.

 

The Imperials caught Ulfric somewhere west of Darkwater Crossing, this is actual far east of Skyrim and not their usual hunting ground. The surviving Stormcloaks, including Ulfric and any bystanders or witnesses were taken as prisoners.

The Stormcloaks expected to be put to show in Solitude.

 

On the way, the Imperials make stop in Helgen.

 

Every single prisoner is sentenced to death by beheading on the executioners block, just like that.

 

Some unlucky horse thief, who just happened to be in the area when arrested, is killed when he tries to flee.

 

Ralof and myself make it out of there, barely alive and under very lucky circumstances.

 

Imperials support the Thalmor and the Thalmor kill, arrest or torture everyone non-Thalmor. The Imperials have their own assassins squads, to become a member you have to kill a random civilian (similar to the Dark Brotherhood).

 

I really don't care about the few raciest idiots in Windhelm. They let the Dark-Elves and Argoniens from Morrowind live with them, they are neither tortured or hunted down like animals and arbitrarily sentenced to death. The Dark Elf woman, when you first enter Windhelm, actual confirms the guy you just overheard shouldn't be taken too seriously.

 

Imperials = Death

Stormcloaks = a way to survive.

 

Most of that is wrong, though...

 

First, most of the people at Darkwater Crossing, a STORMCLOAK town, weren't arrested.

 

Second, Helgen isn't on route to Solitude, but it is on route to Cyrodiil, so the destination was likely the Imperial City.

 

Third, we know the Thalmor want the war to go on, and that they consider Ulfric an 'asset', They are also not present during the execution, or the aftermath, but are there when the Wagons roll in, implying they left very soon after. Since they don't want Ulfric dead, it's very clear that the executions were to PREVENT the Thalmor from taking custody of the prisoners. This shows A; The Empire does not support the Thalmor, and barely tollerates them. B; Tullius either suspects Elenwyn of propping up the Stormcloaks or is trying to be a touch more humane than handing people over for torture.

 

You try running from medieval justice and see if they're just going to chase after you. Lokir getting shot, running away from a prison lineup, would be perfectly acceptable in most parts of the world TODAY (even if it isn't exactly ethical) let alone in a Medieval world.

 

The Thalmor do not have the authority to arrest and torture anyone they want.

 

What assassins are you talking about?

 

You CAN'T think about it simply, because it's not a simple matter. It's like trying to simplify Organic Chemestry using nothing but 3 shapes of blocks from a 2 year olds toy. It can't be done.

 

 

Penitus Oculatus

 

Its agents perform infiltrations and counter-espionage against enemies of the Empire, and have been known to carry out assassinations as necessary for the Empire's security.

 

I meant Darkwater Crossing is not 'their' (Imperial) usual hunting ground. You are correct, it is Stormcloak territory. And I also didn't mean the people at Darkwater Crossing were taken prisoner, but west of Darkwater Crossing.

 

Yap, I mixed Solitude and Cyrodiil.

 

The Imperials are bound to their agreement with the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks are not.

 

Imperials planned and partial succeeded on killing Ulfric and anyone who happened to be in the area at the time of his capture. What is there long to think about? I didn't choose to become executed for the better of Skyrim as a Redguard (not Stormcloak member and pure bystander, same as Lokir)...

[kradus]

Yes, they did this assuming the Stormcloaks would not actually win, but if the Stormcloaks actually do win (with the Dragonborn helping them, this happens in a few days), it's like the Thalmor's ultimate plan just blew up in their face.

 

Not really, either way a lot of men die, and with a stormcloak victory the provinces of man are completely divided. Supporting the stormcloaks is not constructive in any way, only a temporary reprieve from the justiciars at the expense of the future. There's a reason people join the empire and not the cool looking guys.

 

 

 

Imperials planned and partial succeeded on killing Ulfric and anyone who happened to be in the area at the time of his capture. What is there long to think about? I didn't choose to become executed for the better of Skyrim as a Redguard (not Stormcloak member and pure bystander, same as Lokir)...

 

 

I assume you would have joined the empire if you where caught in a stormcloak ambush and taken as an enemy by one of their officers instead? (especially being a foreigner)

Edited September 25, 2014 by kradus

[disi30]

 

Imperials planned and partial succeeded on killing Ulfric and anyone who happened to be in the area at the time of his capture. What is there long to think about? I didn't choose to become executed for the better of Skyrim as a Redguard (not Stormcloak member and pure bystander, same as Lokir)...

 

 

I assume you would have joined the empire if you where caught in a stormcloak ambush and taken as an enemy by one of their officers instead? (especially being a foreigner)

 

 

Jarl Balgruuf is on the side of Whiterun. Without the Stormcloaks they would be already under control of the Imperials and the guy on the market long dead (or turned)?

 

In the original post the OP stated, you should wait until you know more about both sides. It doesn't change facts, without the dragon attack you would be lying dead in Helgen.

 

I have seen or found no execution ever practiced by the Stormcloaks. Maybe they don't have to?

[elricshan]

Argument For the imperial Legion

"The Legion is invading Skyrim/a foreign occupation" Naturally, empires tend to get a bad rap for you know, occupying other peoples' lands. However, though the TES Empire may have started out that way when Tiber Septim conquered all of Tamriel, it isn't really like that anymore during the events of Skyrim, or even Morrowind and Oblivion. The Imperial Legion is basically just the army of the whole Empire, not just Cyrodiil, and as Skyrim is still part of the Empire (as it had always been since Tiber Septim's time, unless you win the Civil War for the Stormcloaks), the Legion had always maintained some kind of presence there. The one you see in-game is one that had been specifically called in to quell Ulfric's rebellion - they're not exactly invading the country to conquer it or anything like that. Even then, the majority of the forces in Skyrim have been locally-recruited (ie. Nords), and the local Nords are still pretty evenly divided as whether or not Skyrim should remain or break away from the Empire. It's called a 'Civil War' for a reason - because the fighting is going on between the Nords themselves, and not between Skyrim and Cyrodiil.

"The Legion is just as racist as the Stormcloaks/Thalmor" Eh. Granted, you do see a bit of racism against the beast races in TESIV: Oblivion, but that isn't something exclusive to Cyrodiil. Since that specific instance (Leyawiin) and all of the individual provinces in Tamriel are on the frontier, pretty much all of them have their fair share of xenophobia (I'm equally as pissed off at hearing the Stormcloaks yell "Skyrim is for the Nords!"in Skyrim as I am at getting called an "Outlander" and "N'wah" in Morrowind). However, the Imperial government and the Legion, being melting pots of diversity, are faring much better on the 'accepting other races' scale than say, the Nord nationalist Stormcloaks and the Nazi-esque Thalmor. For example, in Oblivion, the most powerful dude in the Empire (Chancellor Ocato) was an Altmer from Firsthold in the Summerset Isles, the Count of Cheydinhal (Andel Indarys) was a Dunmer from Morrowind, and one of the Dunmer Imperial City citizens (Dralora Athram) talks about how "here, we are Imperial citizens, nothing less". Furthermore, in the Skyrim game, the Legion is made up a whole bunch of different races, and not just "Imperials and Nords" as some people have suggested:

1 Imperial General (Tullius, duh)

3 Nord Legates (Rikke, Skulnar, Hrollod)

3 Imperial Legates (Taurinus Duilis, Constantius Tituleius, Quentin Cipius)

1 Breton Legate (Emmanuel Admand)

1 Dunmer Legate (Sevan Telendas)

1 Thalmor-hating Altmer Legate (Fasendil)

A few Orc NPCs who have mentioned serving in the Legion (Ghorbash the Iron Hand, Ghorza gra-Bagol, Moth gro-Bagol)

A bunch of generic Imperial and locally-recruited Nord soldiers (including Hadvar)

So, if someone wants to argue about how the Stormcloaks might be getting a bit too much flack than they necessarily deserve for being racist, go ahead, but whatever the Stormcloaks have going on with regards to racial tolerance, the Legion are still doing it better. However, I think we can all agree, both sides are a lot better than the Thalmor.

"The Imperials has turned its back on Talos" I think that we can all agree that the banning of Talos worship is not a fun thing, but other than banning him on paper, the Imperials haven't really turned their back on him. He's just as much a Nord god as he is an Imperial one and in many ways, as the founder of their Empire, Talos is even more important to the Imperials. That's why a lot of the Empire's supporters, Torygg, Elisif, Legate Rikke, Balgruuf, Brunwulf Free-Winter, and even Titus-f*#@ing-Mede II still continue to worship Talos despite the ban. Sure, they're not declaring it from the rooftops, but why would they when it would risk attracting the attention of the Thalmor and risk war with the Dominion by openly violating the White-Gold Concordat seeing as that's what caused the Justiciars to move into Skyrim in the first place? In the Empire's case, they've judged that passive defiance is a lot more effective than open defiance, especially when the latter runs the risk of not only having EVEN MORE Justiciars moving into the province, but also having a bunch of Nazi elves declare war on you and ROFLstomp over everyone all over again. Sure, the Stormcloaks might see the honour in jumping right into the fray and going down in a blaze of glory, but not everyone wants to die needlessly like that, especially when this sort of thing can be prevented via, you know, actual tactics and caution. I get why the Stormcloaks are pissed off, but when you're in charge of the lives of hundreds of thousands of soldiers and citizens, "death or glory" isn't exactly the best way to go about achieving goals that actually require being alive to enjoy them.

"The Empire are allied with/puppets of the Thalmor" I wish I could put it nicer, but anyone who thinks this way clearly hasn't played through either enough of the game or the Imperial side of the civil war. Firstly, the Empire are NOT allied with the Thalmor, and the White-Gold Concordat is an armistice, not an alliance. That's like saying Treaty of Versailles between the Allies and Imperial Germany after WWI was a declaration of friendship (and before anyone asks, no it was NOT). Does anyone seriously think that the Empire, after having its cities and people in Cyrodiil systematically sacked and brutalised during the Great War, would suddenly decide to be best buddies with the Dominion all of a sudden? The dialogue from Legate Fasendil pretty much proves that the Imperials hate the Thalmor just as much as the Stormcloaks do (I'd put Tullius' dialogue about wanting to fight the Dominion in the future, but I can't find any transcripts):

Legate Fasendil: "The life of a soldier is full of hardship. That's nothing. But they send the Legion to places that've gotten too bad to be settled without violence. What's hard is seeing good people warped by evil. And I've seen the face of evil [...] We're supposedly at peace now. But I put in to be stationed here to keep an eye on the Thalmor. I've a feeling they're behind this unrest in Skyrim."

As for puppetry, the White-Gold Concordat does NOT allow the Thalmor any actual influence in the Empire's affairs other than the Justiciars in Skyrim being allowed to enforce the Talos ban which, funnily enough, came about not as a result of the Empire's actions, but of Ulfric's; the second the Dominion's armies set foot in the Empire, it's war-time whether they like it or not. Furthermore, the Empire doesn't do anything to help the Thalmor in their inquisition and won't do anything to enforce the ban themselves. Nothing really happens to Talos worshippers even if the Imperials win the civil war. Heck, the fact that Ondolemar has to ask for the player's assistance because the (Imperial) Jarl of Markarth outright refuses to sanction the investigation is pretty telling that at worst, the Imperials' attitude towards this whole thing is "You want evidence of Talos worship? You get evidence of Talos worship yourself". Sure, it would be ideal not to have any Justiciars in Skyrim at all but hey, you can blame Ulfric and maybe, the Jarl of Markarth for kicking up the shitstorm that caused the Justiciars to move into Skyrim in the first place there's not much you can do when the Dominion has an army right on your doorstep.

Argument for Stormcloacks:

We are natives to this land, and we want to praise talos openly.
(the problem with this, as stated above in the for imperial, is that it is a civil war, and it is a reason it is called that, because atleast half of the other nords that are natives to Skyrim, are against the Stormcloacks.)