Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Lachdonin]

Without knowing the specific conversation, I can't say for sure, but it's likely. At least in that he doesn't have a favorite side, not that he'd play both.

 

Balgruf's loyalty is first to his Hold, and second to Skyrim. He doesn't seem to be particularly concerned with who represents Skyrim, and as such doesn't want to get involved in a fight about that subject. Particularly if it means suffering for his people.

 

He'll bow to whoever wins... But his sense of honour also means he wont try to play the sides. Heisnt going to give covert support to both, sell them weapons, tax their movements etc. Individuals within his Hold seem able to support whoever they want, but Balgruf doesn't want to give either side any help, officially or otherwise.

[MidbossVyers]

Most Empire supporters say that the White Gold Concordat was necessary to buy time for the Empire to recover. However, the Aldmeri Dominion is not stagnant and would also take that time to recover. Obviously, the game provides no numbers to prove or disprove this, but should the war reignite, and both sides have recovered at the same rate, then it would all just cancel each other out and would be no different if the Empire never signed the treaty to begin with. In fact, I can only see it as worse, as by signing the treaty, the Emperor alienated several of his own people. An argument can be made that the Concordat did buy time for the Empire to simply survive, regardless of whether or not that time was used efficiently. Well, a great man once said:

" Ningen Gojuunen,
Geten no uchi wo kurabureba,
yumemaboroshi no gotokunari.
Hitotabi sei wo ete,
metsusenu mono no
arubekika? "

Also, I don't even know why it's even called a treaty to begin with. Treaties are founded on compromise. In other words, both sides give something up, but it seems like the Empire is the only side that is giving anything up, and if you say that the Dominion's concession is that they simply agree not to wipe out the Empire, then that is no treaty. Heck, it is not even blasphemy as Heimskr calls it. It is simply thuggish extortion. The Empire led by the Dragonborn Emperors would never kowtow to extortion.

[CaptainPatch]

But let's say that the Legion does win the war without Whiterun declaring allegiance to one side or the other. Are you saying that the Empire will continue letting Whiterun remain "neutral" afterwards? According to Imperial law, as bended by the Thalmor, Heimskr's preaching is illegal, but he is able to do so freely because Whiterun is neutral.

LOL. If there is no longer a war, there are no longer two sides to remain neutral in between. ALL of Skyrim would be Imperial. To be independent of the Empire would be outside of the Empire, and therefore independent of Imperial Law. That would be the start of a rebellion in and of itself. What you are looking at would be the difference between Federal Law and State enforcement of that Law. The State may choose to NOT enforce a Federal Law, in which case it is left to the Feds to send in their own agents to enforce the Law. (Which the State probably would not interfere with that enforcement.) The NOT-enforcement is more a political statement rather than an act of rebellion. And who knows? The Feds may decide to not bother to send agents to enforce the Law.

Most Empire supporters say that the White Gold Concordat was necessary to buy time for the Empire to recover. However, the Aldmeri Dominion is not stagnant and would also take that time to recover. Obviously, the game provides no numbers to prove or disprove this, but should the war reignite, and both sides have recovered at the same rate, then it would all just cancel each other out and would be no different if the Empire never signed the treaty to begin with.

The difference is that while both sides are building up, the Empire would most likely be able to start the next go-around with a surprise attack. That's what gave the AD the big advantage in the Great War: a surprise invasion that the Empire had not been prepared to withstand. If the Empire chose to NOT be that provocative, at least in Round Two, the Imperial forces would be prepared to stand against an AD invasion. The military rule-of-thumb is that invaders require at least a 3-to-1 numerical advantage against a prepared defense. If both sides are relatively equal and equally prepared, then it is the attacker that would be likely to lose. So then the race in the long run would be to see which side can breed warriors faster. (Which what evidence exists suggests that humans breed MUCH faster than elves.)

Well, a great man once said:

" Ningen Gojuunen,
Geten no uchi wo kurabureba,
yumemaboroshi no gotokunari.
Hitotabi sei wo ete,
metsusenu mono no
arubekika? "

"A man's life of 50 years under the sky
is nothing compared to
the age of this world.
Life is but a fleeting dream, an illusion --
Is there anything that lasts forever?"

 

I fail to see how this relates to this discussion. "Why strive to accomplish anything? In the long run, it will mean absolutely nothing."

Also, I don't even know why it's even called a treaty to begin with. Treaties are founded on compromise. In other words, both sides give something up,

Ever hear of the Treaty of Versailles? I doubt that any of the central Powers felt that the Allies were giving up anything in that deal.

 

It's called a "peace treaty", and quite often the terms are unilateral: the loser gives concessions and the winner agrees to stop beating the bejeezus out of the loser. Most often, in cases where BOTH sides wish to end conflict when no clear winner can be ascertained, the peace treaty would be labeled "Compromise". I fail to see the word "compromise" in "White-Gold Concordat".

Edited December 25, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[Elimc]

 

LOL. If there is no longer a war, there are no longer two sides to remain neutral in between. ALL of Skyrim would be Imperial. To be independent of the Empire would be outside of the Empire, and therefore independent of Imperial Law. That would be the start of a rebellion in and of itself. What you are looking at would be the difference between Federal Law and State enforcement of that Law. The State may choose to NOT enforce a Federal Law, in which case it is left to the Feds to send in their own agents to enforce the Law. (Which the State probably would not interfere with that enforcement.) The NOT-enforcement is more a political statement rather than an act of rebellion. And who knows? The Feds may decide to not bother to send agents to enforce the Law.

So then Balgruuf will be forced to either side with the Empire or fight against them, just like he has to do with the stormcloaks. So really the Imperials aren't any better than Ulfric in that aspect.

 

 

The difference is that while both sides are building up, the Empire would most likely be able to start the next go-around with a surprise attack. That's what gave the AD the big advantage in the Great War: a surprise invasion that the Empire had not been prepared to withstand. If the Empire chose to NOT be that provocative, at least in Round Two, the Imperial forces would be prepared to stand against an AD invasion. The military rule-of-thumb is that invaders require at least a 3-to-1 numerical advantage against a prepared defense. If both sides are relatively equal and equally prepared, then it is the attacker that would be likely to lose. So then the race in the long run would be to see which side can breed warriors faster. (Which what evidence exists suggests that humans breed MUCH faster than elves.)

But the Empire has been occupied by the AD, with most of it's cities being captured. And as you keep saying when we talk about Hammerfell, the AD would have completely destroyed many of these cities before they retreated. The IC would be spared, because the AD might have wanted to keep it intact so they could rule Cyrodil from it, but Bravil, Skingrad, Kvatch and Anvil, as well as all surrounding infrastructure could have been burned. And even if it wasn't, Cicero's journals show that it is being destroyed now. Also, Cicero doesn't go insane until after he has written the parts about major imperial cites being destroyed.

[Lachdonin]

[

But the Empire has been occupied by the AD, with most of it's cities being captured. And as you keep saying when we talk about Hammerfell, the AD would have completely destroyed many of these cities before they retreated. The IC would be spared, because the AD might have wanted to keep it intact so they could rule Cyrodil from it, but Bravil, Skingrad, Kvatch and Anvil, as well as all surrounding infrastructure could have been burned. And even if it wasn't, Cicero's journals show that it is being destroyed now. Also, Cicero doesn't go insane until after he has written the parts about major imperial cites being destroyed.

There is a major underlying theme in the battle between Man and Mer. The Aldmeri Descendants, be they Falmer, Ayleids or Altmer, CANNOT match the progression and dynamic nature of Man. They cannot match the reproduction, manufacture, intellectual progress or the spiritual ascendancy of Man. Only the Chimer and Dwemer managed to do that, by forsaking everything that defined the Aldmeri. Even when soundly crushed, like Sarthaal, the Nedes and the Bretons, they inevitably come back and surpass the Elves.

 

Which sheds a bit of light on the Thalmor and their activities... The Dominion lost the Great War. Regardless of the remaining forces, regardless of the Concordant, the Dominion lost. The Empire lacked the resources to invade them, and they lacked the resources to finish the Empire, so the stalemate caused the White-Gold Concordant... But the Thalmor must have realised then that they had made a fatal mistake.

 

Remember the Dominion's original goal. Parts of southern Hammerfell. The invasion of Cyrodiil was a diversion that, when it was successful, became an ambitions to break the back of Man in one fell swoop... And it failed. It failed HARD. At the beginning of the war, the Dominion was ascendant. Centuries of work behind the scenes by the Thalmor has destabilized the Empire, weakened all the human territories and reinforced the Elven. At the end, even if the balance had shifted to be roughly equal, it was a catastrophic loss for the Dominion. Humans would do in decades what it would take the Dominion centuries to accomplish. Because that's what Humans do.

 

So what's their option? Fall back on subterfuge and manipulation. Spark revolts. Assassinate leaders. Pull strings to get weak or sympathetic leaders into power. ANYTHING to either divide the Empire or slow it's recovery. Because they know they can't win the next war if Man is allowed to do what it does best.

[Elimc]

 

So what's their option? Fall back on subterfuge and manipulation. Spark revolts. Assassinate leaders. Pull strings to get weak or sympathetic leaders into power. ANYTHING to either divide the Empire or slow it's recovery. Because they know they can't win the next war if Man is allowed to do what it does best.

If you read the journals that I linked, you will see why I think that the Empire is never going to recover. Entire cities are being destroyed by bandits and drug lords, while the legion is trying to maintain a strong face on the AD border. The Empire is giving in to Thalmor demands, and is quickly weakening. Unless they get incredibly lucky, I don't think they will be able to survive for another century. Ulfric's rebellion only helps the AD if it ultimately fails, or if it suceeds after Skyrim is destroyed. A quick victory for either side will hurt their positioin, but I think a Stormcloak victory hurts them the most. If the Empire wins, the war will still have cost them a large amount of resources. If the Stormcloaks win, Cyrodil will likely fall, but High Rock would probably leave the Empire, and if Hammerfell has recovered (unlikely), they could form their own alliance against the AD.

[CaptainPatch]

But the Empire has been occupied by the AD, with most of it's cities being captured.

A point of order: Three cities in Hammerfell and most of the cities in Cyrodiil were occupied NO cities in Highrock or Skyrim were occupied by the AD. That means that "most of the cities of the Empire were occupied" is an overstatement.

Entire cities are being destroyed by bandits and drug lords,

Which illuminates that it is men fighting men that gives the Mer any hope of success. Movements that create divisions within the Empire is what is weakening Man in its confrontation with Mer.

 

How you contend that it would be more advantageous for PART of the forces of Man will prevail against the Mer in the long run while at the same time saying ALL the forces unified in the Empire is doomed to failure defies logic. Or are you suggesting that Man is entirely doomed to failure anyway, so it is morally better for the Nords to lose united under their own independent banner? "Better to die as Nords than to die as Imperial lackeys!" Dead is dead. The net effect would be the Mer ascendant and what remains of Mankind subjugated.

[Lachdonin]

A point of order: Three cities in Hammerfell and most of the cities in Cyrodiil were occupied NO cities in Highrock or Skyrim were occupied by the AD. That means that "most of the cities of the Empire were occupied" is an overstatement.

 

It's also worth noting that, despite occupation by the Dominion, none of those cities seem to have been overly damaged. They didn't even destroy the statue of the Old Lady. They killed plenty of civilians, but they didn't seem to actually destroy much, as they didn't expect so sound and rapid a beating. The exception is in Hammerfell, which was engaged in a far more protracted, and less successful, opposition.

 

Anyway, Cicero's Journals aren't really that enlightening. Because... Well, riots aren't that uncommon in post-War nations, and criminals also have a tendency to capitalise on a distracted government regardless of the cause.

 

Riots also aren't generally good indicators of national or municipal stability, at least in pre-modern societies. Riots were quite common in Industrial London and France, as were Gang Wars.

 

Thinking about it... The destruction of the Sanctuaries is also rather suspicious... These are hideouts that have survived thousands of years, the Interregnum, multiple attempts at extermination, and the Age of Misrule... But they get breached and the Brotherhood gets almost wiped out by angry pesants? Something's not right there...

 

We then have to compare what Cicero depicts to what else we get of the state of the Empire. We know they have recouped virtually all financial losses because they try to buy Balgruf's support. We know their production is of sufficient quantity to export enough foodstuffs to make Skyrim at least partially dependant on them. We know the Thalor are concerned about their troop buildup, and that the Legion considers its self ready for a new war. We also know that it's stable enough that the Emperor can move about freely, even visiting a province in OPEN REBELLION (something even the Septims were hesitant to do, though there is some indication that Mede may have had a hand in his own execution).

 

Even if you take Cicero's Journals at face value, all they indicate in context with everything else is that the Empire is slowly recovering, rather than quickly. And it's still quick enough to alarm the Thalmor and the Dominion, who are willing to risk outright intervention to ensure the Stormcloaks don't lose.

[pgir001]

This is where I would say a New Empire, or a new strength for the old should be born out of Skyrim once again. And the 4E Dragonborn has the strength to lead it. (Honestly, I would say Helgen started 5E) It was always my help assumption (given a Nord) that the Dragonborn would ultimately be tie one voted in as High King at the Moot. Even if not, He or She still arguably commands the strongest military force in Tamriel history. I mean, even Dragons obey him/her now. So History would repeat. Either a revitalization or a new Empire would soon be coming out of Skyrim to deal with the Thalmor. It would not be lead by Ulfric Stormcloak or General Tullius.

Edited December 27, 2015 by pgir001

[Lachdonin]

This is where I would say a New Empire, or a new strength for the old should be born out of Skyrim once again. And the 4E Dragonborn has the strength to lead it.

The LDB is a non issue. He won't be around to do jack squat. History demands that heroes dissappear. It's one of the underlying themes of TES. Heroes exist to make a decision, they don't get to live in the worlds they save.

 

The Dragonborn's story ended with Miraak.The story of Tamriel's future belongs to someone else.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Lachdonin