Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[pgir001]

The AD has to be concerned about how much military strength the Empire can deploy to the AD/Empire border. Imperial forces tied up in an ongoing civil war in Skyrim are forces that can NOT be sent to the Western borders of the Empire. The vast majority of Nords would understandably be more concerned about the martial affairs in Skyrim, rather than Empire concerns outside of Skyrim. Traditionally, the Empire relied quite a bit on the fact that much/most of the Legion's strength was provided by Nords. If the Great War, Part II was to start, an active civil war in Skyrim would keep nearly all Nord forces in Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win, even though Skyrim was independent, MANY Nords would still go enlist in the Legion, simply for the opportunity to kill Thalmor with impunity. ("This is for my cousin, Jens, who you bastards murdered!") If the Empire wins the civil war, then Skyrim would be reunited in its entirety, and the greatest number of Nord volunteers would be available to move to the Empire's western borders. So when determining the AD's preferences, a 1-2-3 ranking seems pretty obvious.

 

I don't seem to recall that the Thalmor had any intention to interfere in Ulfric's execution at Helgen. How could they? Ulfric had only just recently captured and then quickly transferred to Helgen. There wouldn't have been enough time for the news of Ulfric's capture to get to Elenwen (the senior Thalmor official in Skyrim) in Solitude, much less for her to organize any kind of intervention.

Load a new game and pay close attention as you enter the gates of Helgen. As you pass through, in the background behind Ralof, (When he mentions the elves having something to do with this) you will see Tullius on Horseback talking to Elenwen. She's There at Helgen.

[Lachdonin]

I don't seem to recall that the Thalmor had any intention to interfere in Ulfric's execution at Helgen. How could they? Ulfric had only just recently captured and then quickly transferred to Helgen. There wouldn't have been enough time for the news of Ulfric's capture to get to Elenwen (the senior Thalmor official in Skyrim) in Solitude, much less for her to organize any kind of intervention.

Ralof points out Tullius as you enter Helgen, and mentions him talking to the Thalmor. If you look closely, he's clearly talking to Elenwen. Considering the route that they were taking, it seems likely that Tullius was trying to get Ulfric to Cyrodiil before the Thalmor found out, and when he got word that Elenwen was on them he decided to go for summary execution instead of handing Ulfric over (since Ulfric is technically her jurisdiction, being public Talos figure number one).

 

Ralof even comments that he thinks the Elves were behind their capture.

 

The scene is actually rather telling regarding the power the Thalmor actually have in Skyrim. The Empire has them there as a barely tollerated courtesy, they aren't the ones in charge.

[CaptainPatch]

Ralof points out Tullius as you enter Helgen, and mentions him talking to the Thalmor. If you look closely, he's clearly talking to Elenwen. Considering the route that they were taking, it seems likely that Tullius was trying to get Ulfric to Cyrodiil before the Thalmor found out, and when he got word that Elenwen was on them he decided to go for summary execution instead of handing Ulfric over (since Ulfric is technically her jurisdiction, being public Talos figure number one).

Now I remember the scene. I'll grant that Elenwen's presence is significant. I will grant that the Thalmor could even submit a request for extradition, based on the fact that Ulfric was an apostate. But they would have to stand in line behind the Empire who would get to prosecute him first for treason, high treason, rebellion, and responsible for the deaths of hundreds/thousands of Empire citizens. And as all those crimes carry a death sentence, all they would be getting is Ullfric's corpse.

 

So, if not diplomatically, just how could the Thalmor interfere? Elenwen on the scene would actually make it harder for her to orchestrate any kind of attempt to free Ulfric. The Thalmor wouldn't/couldn't be so heavy-handed as to use Thalmor to forcefully take Ulfric from the Imperials. (Nor would it be typical of the Thalmor, being known for subterfuge as they are.) About the only option would be for the Thalmor to hire some Nord bandits, dress them as Stormcloaks, and have them ambush the Imperial possession. But for them to do something like that they would have had to know about the procession in advance. They would have had to know in advance that Ulfric was going to be ambushed (possible) AND be captured (highly unlikely). And as there would have been combat involved, the last place that Elenwen would want to be is in the center of the Imperial formation. (Escaping Stormcloaks, weapons, and the #1 Thalmor in Skyrim? What would be the chances that at least one of them would conclude that trying to kill Elenewen when the opportunity arose would be a Good Idea?)

[Lachdonin]

Well, The Empire definately wanted first whack at Ulfric for his crimes. But, under the revised terms of the Concordant (because the Empire wasn't holding up their end) the Thalmor get first stab at even suspected Talos worshippers. Look at the missing son quest in Whiterun as an example. They take a rebel from the Imperials under suspicion of Talos Worship, and Tullius, when questioned about it, basically says that's how things work.

 

For normal prisoners, anyway. And this is the situation Elenwen would be used to. Show up with some Jisticars, claim jurisdiction, take the prisoner, torture for info, profit. The 'plan' was probably to take custody of the prisoners, 'Stage' an escape, probably kill a few to make it look authentic, and then just say 'Oops'. But Tullius doesn't back down. If he can't take Ulfric to Cyrodiil for a proper trial, he's going to put him down right then and there.

 

How Elenwen got there so fast is up in the air. It seems that Tullius took a rather round-about route and avoided main roads, so it may have taken time. Along the main roads someone may have gotten word to her, and she came running. Learning about the plan after Tullius had departed is also an option. It's also possible that Tullius wasn't with the Ambush, but when informed of its success came running, and Elenwen learned of it shortly after the Generals departure. I think this is most likely, because Ralof seems to imply that you have never seen Tullius, which indicates he hasn't been with the ambushing Imperials. There's also the potential for Magic being involved.

 

We KNOW from the Dossier that they tried to intervene. And from what we see, we can assume it didn't go in their favour. Had Tullius persisted in going to Cyrodiil, Elenwen may have had time to get her superiors involved, who would have pressured Tullius' superiors, and they may have gotten custody later... But Tullius exerting the authority if the Empire screwed the plan, and all that saved them was the intervention of a very angry World Eater and the chance presence of a Dragonbon.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Lachdonin

[CaptainPatch]

Well, The Empire definately wanted first whack at Ulfric for his crimes. But, under the revised terms of the Concordant (because the Empire wasn't holding up their end) the Thalmor get first stab at even suspected Talos worshippers. Look at the missing son quest in Whiterun as an example. They take a rebel from the Imperials under suspicion of Talos Worship, and Tullius, when questioned about it, basically says that's how things work.

There's two factors in play on this issue. First is, who has the criminal in custody? A fugitive wanted for capital crimes in multiple jurisdictions, each carrying a death sentence is going to leave a number of disappointed jurisdictions. Because a convicted criminal can only be executed once. Everything after that is moot. [chuckle. Ulfric finally got his Moot!] Second is the severity of the various crimes. Murder trumps kidnapping which trumps Grand Theft, etc. The Empire wanted Ulfric for high treason, which among other things is a domestic crime. The Thalmor wanted Ulfric for apostasy and is a foreign claim. Stand in line foreigners!

 

Elenwen would have/should have understood these things. Other than diplomatic bluster, there wasn't much that she could do about the situation. Except maybe to try heavy-handed direct bribery to the official in charge. (We're sorry, Emperor. There was a paperwork snafu and the prisoner fell through the cracks.") Which may be very well what Elenwen was attempting -- and falling to accomplish because Tullius was 100% loyal to the Empire.

[pgir001]

 

Well, The Empire definately wanted first whack at Ulfric for his crimes. But, under the revised terms of the Concordant (because the Empire wasn't holding up their end) the Thalmor get first stab at even suspected Talos worshippers. Look at the missing son quest in Whiterun as an example. They take a rebel from the Imperials under suspicion of Talos Worship, and Tullius, when questioned about it, basically says that's how things work.

There's two factors in play on this issue. First is, who has the criminal in custody? A fugitive wanted for capital crimes in multiple jurisdictions, each carrying a death sentence is going to leave a number of disappointed jurisdictions. Because a convicted criminal can only be executed once. Everything after that is moot. [chuckle. Ulfric finally got his Moot!] Second is the severity of the various crimes. Murder trumps kidnapping which trumps Grand Theft, etc. The Empire wanted Ulfric for high treason, which among other things is a domestic crime. The Thalmor wanted Ulfric for apostasy and is a foreign claim. Stand in line foreigners!

 

Elenwen would have/should have understood these things. Other than diplomatic bluster, there wasn't much that she could do about the situation. Except maybe to try heavy-handed direct bribery to the official in charge. (We're sorry, Emperor. There was a paperwork snafu and the prisoner fell through the cracks.") Which may be very well what Elenwen was attempting -- and falling to accomplish because Tullius was 100% loyal to the Empire.

 

I have to ultimately agree. Elenwen showed up to apply some political pressure, but aside from that, I think she was powerless. At least overtly. Subversion was probably not beneath her though. Either way, I guess we will never know what her plan was since it wasn't actually needed.

[Padre86]

If you're a Nord player, and one side has to win (after all you can choose to remain neutral), then the StormCloaks are the obvious choice for many reasons:

 

1) The Empire is crumbling, and has been for many years leading up to the Great War. The emperors are no longer descendants of Tiber Septim, and thus lack the dragon's blood and the ability to light the sacred fires. Tiber Septim, a Nord himself, originally united the lands of Tamriel, including Skyrim, not because he called himself "Emperor" but because he was a mighty and capable ruler...The current emperor (Mede) is anything but. Nords respect might, power, and honor. The Emperor barely held back the last Altmer onslaught (and only did so because Hamerfell and Skyrim forces saved his butt), agreed to terms that heavily favored the Thalmor, and has done nothing of note to strengthen his position or throw off the Thalmor yoke....a true Nord can find nothing to respect in the Empire. And if the Empire falls after Skyrim gains independence, then it was the straw that broke the camel's back...the empire was bound to fall eventually.

 

2) An independent Skyrim is much safer and better off than a Skyrim under Imperial rule and Thalmor regulation. Anyone remember what happened to Hammerfell during the Great War? The Imperials abandoned it to refocus their efforts on the conflict in Cyrodil. And despite that betrayal, the Redguards still managed to fight the local Thalmor army to a standstill on their own. The Empire doesn't care about Skyrim, they only want Skyrim's resources and manpower for their own uses...and the Imperials would abandon Skyrim in a heartbeat, as they did Hamerfell, in order to save themselves. In comparison, a free Skyrim would be able to marshall and manage its own resources and manpower, focus on its own defense and infrastructure, make its own alliances, all with a priority on Nordic interests, rather than Imperial ones. Yes Skyrim may have to potentially fight Altmer on its own (though alliances could easily be formed with others who have a common interest like the Dunmer and Redguards), but let's not forget that Skyrim and the Nords were the basis from which all the great human empires emerged. If the human race is to have a resurgence it will be due to a Nordic revival, not an imperial one.

 

3) The Imperials have been acting as Thalmor puppets by allowing them to spread and enforce their regulations (from the White Gold Concordate) and have themselves been acting in authoritarian way towards Skyrim's citizens. The opening scene with summary executions, including of people who have nothing to do with the Stormcloak rebellion, dungeons and torture chambers. The Empire is focused only on one thing: the Empire's interests. It has no qualms about abusing and killing its own citizens if it achieves their end goal. If the Imperials are willing to treat their own citizens, and even whole provinces, as expendable, then why would a Nord, or any citizen, want to support such a government?

 

Every time I play as a Nord, I feel it is a no-brainer that I must join and support the Stormcloak cause. I know the stormcloaks, and Ulfric, are not without their own faults, but at the very least they see preservation of the Nordic way of life and Thalmor expulsion as a top priority.

 

That said, if I play as an Imperial or Elven race, my support would obviously change sides.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Padre86

[MidbossVyers]

I've noticed that there is a very thin line between secular fanboyism and religious zealotry. Despite that the fact that Elenwen does not like the father (Lorkhan), the son (Tiber Septim), or the holy ghost (Talos), even she must admit that that Talos was a heroic man: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Elenwen Therefore, if you walked up to a Thalmor officer and admitted to being a Tiber fanboy, but not a Talos worshiper (yeah, this amulet is not a religious artifact; it is prime Septim merch), can the Thalmor still legally arrest you?

[pgir001]

can the Thalmor still legally arrest you?

During your next session, or whenever you play next, look around for a party of 3 Thalmor escorting a prisoner. Confront them, they will tell you to walk away. If you try to speak to them again, they will ask if you are a Talos Worshiper. Your choices are 1. I believe in Talos, 2. I can worship whoever I like 3. Remain Silent. No matter what you chose they will attack you as a Talos Worshiper. So, to answer your question, No. They cannot legally arrest you. But they will illegally try to kill you.

 

I generally use these opportunities to gather Elven metals so I can make Elven arrows to have converted to Sunhallowed Arrows.

Edited January 12, 2016 by pgir001

[pgir001]

If you're a Nord player, and one side has to win (after all you can choose to remain neutral), then the StormCloaks are the obvious choice for many reasons:

I get exactly how you feel.....Nord Dragonborn warrior stormcloak thing. I too play as though I was a Nord who wants to see Skyrim free.

It's just........Ulfric isn't the right guy for the job.

Edited January 12, 2016 by pgir001