Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

Have the Divines not already erected such a wall in the form of mountains?

[Padre86]

 

f*** globalism , i side with the storms anytime

Ulfric would probably favor building a wall around the perimeter of Skyrim and having Highrock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil and Morrowind pay for it.

 

 

1) That Trump reference joke is a bit over-played.

2) No Ulfric wouldn't be likely to do that. He may be an arrogant, egotistical nationalist, but that doesn't mean he is racist or xenophobic.

3) Skyrim has a lot in common with some of the states you listed. The Redgaurds have a common enemy with Nords in the Aldmeri Dominion, and many Nordic legionnaires helped the Redguards in battle during the Great War. And many Dunmer refuges have relied on Skyrim to provide sanctuary from the natural disaster plaguing their homelands. Those are significant ties between the Nords and other groups which cannot be overlooked.

4) Even if Ulfric wanted to to do that, refer to what he said below:

Have the Divines not already erected such a wall in the form of mountains?

 

As I've said before, if someone couldn't stomach supporting the Stormcloaks due to Ulfric's personality, fine.....Personally, I see him as the lesser of two evils in the overall struggle between Imperial hegemony (under a heavy Thalmor influence) and Nordic independence. Kind of like certain big-name politicians, I don't like Ulfric as a person, but he is a leader who in the long run will accomplish certain objectives that I think are beneficial to the Nords.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Padre86

[Lachdonin]

will accomplish certain objectives that I think are beneficial to the Nords.

 

 

And are likely detrimental to everyone else.

[Padre86]

 

will accomplish certain objectives that I think are beneficial to the Nords.

 

 

And are likely detrimental to everyone else.

 

Detrimental to the Imperials perhaps.

Between the Imperials abandoning Hammerfell during the Great War and offering limited, if any support, to Morrowind during their own crisis, I see an independent Skyrim having much in common with some of the former and current provinces of the Empire. The Lore doesn't offer much insight as to what Skyrim would and wouldn't do under Ulfric's rule. But for all the labels we can throw at Ulfirc, "dumb" isn't one of them...you don't manipulate people and work the political entities like Ulfric did to become High King by being "dumb." And his opposition and outright hatred to the Aldmeri Dominion has been a driving force behind his nationalistic rebellion, perhaps only second to his own personal ambitions.

 

Ulfric knows the Aldmeri are a long term threat, and he is the type of person who is smart enough to realize that Skyrim has potential allies in that fight. Heck even after Nordic independence, it's not at all unrealistic that the Imperials and Nords would fight alongside each other in future fights with the Thalmor, because they have much more of an incentive to fight off that threat than to continue bickering with each other. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have every reason to continue to support the Empire in it's fight against the Elves (if for nothing else than to have a buffer state). But similar to how Emperor Titus finally conceded to the terms of the White Gold Concordat on his terms, after the Thalmor invasion had been soundly defeated, Ulfric and the Nords would assist the Imperials so on their terms, not because a foreign ruler told them to...that is what the Stormcloak rebellion was about IMO; allowing the Nords to have the freedom to choose their own path.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Padre86

[khyloskye]

 

will accomplish certain objectives that I think are beneficial to the Nords.

 

 

And are likely detrimental to everyone else.

 

It's rather disingenuous to claim that when recent Imperial decisions not only threw Skyrim under the bus, but Hammerfell as well. The Empire's United we Stand, Divided we Fall ship has sailed. It sailed the day they signed the Concordat.

 

Padre86 is right that Ulfric's rebellion is detrimental to mostly just Cyrodiil. It certainly doesn't pertain to Hammerfell, and Skyrim(and most anyone for that matter) is far better off being bloody yet free than being safe yet enslaved. The only other people besides Imperials that Ulfric's rebellion may have been detrimental to are the Bretons...but there has been all of zero news from High Rock concerning the recent Dominion War.

[Lachdonin]

It's rather disingenuous to claim that when recent Imperial decisions not only threw Skyrim under the bus, but Hammerfell as well.

Poppycock. The Empire agreed to hand over territories already occupied by the enemy, it didn't throw Hammerfell under the bus. When Hammerfell's provincial government refused the terms, and practically guaranteed insurrection forces in the province that would have either required prolonging the War, or killing its own subjects, it cut them lose.

 

As for Skyrim, it was Ulfric who is responsible for its current situation. He's the one who raised a stink about a uninforced law, forcing a crackdown or risk treaty violation. Ulfric threw his own country under the bus for unclear reasons, and trying to pass the blame onto the Empire is the disingenuous thing.

 

 

 

Ulfric knows the Aldmeri are a long term threat, and he is the type of person who is smart enough to realize that Skyrim has potential allies in that fight.

 

 

Is he? He is unaware of the dubious loyalties of his own supporters, the rather clear manipulation at the hands of the enemy, or the sacrificing of valuable allies for the sake of displays of power. Ulfric is not a smart man. He is a broken man desperately trying to atone for a perceived crime, who is doing far more damage in that attempt.

 

 

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have every reason to continue to support the Empire in it's fight against the Elves (if for nothing else than to have a buffer state).

 

The problem is, they don't. Because Ulfric doesn't have absolute power. He has 2 Jarls who want nothing more than to watch the Empire burn, regardless of it's value, and if he were to suddenly voice support for the Empire after fighting so hard to break away from them, it would almost certainly spark another civil war.

 

Ulfric is damning his own country to lack of allies, and an inability to contribute to that greater front.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Lachdonin

[khyloskye]

"The Empire agreed to hand over territories already occupied by the enemy, it didn't throw Hammerfell under the bus. When Hammerfell's provincial government refused the terms..."

 

^-- That's just the kind of imperial language that is the underlying force(besides the Thalmor) behind these rebellions. You speak of those territories as Imperial first and Hammerfell's second, as well as referring to Hammerfell's own government as merely "provincial". The days of Tiber Septims' Fortress Tamriel are long gone, and Imperial provinces are largely sovereign regions these days. And the Empire hasn't exactly had a rosy record of benevolent rule over its political territories. It's like they think they are still England during the golden age of imperialism, even though that era is long gone and they are just another nation like everybody else. The Thalmor know this, which is exactly why they put those conditions in the Concordat...and the Empire took the bait faster than it took the ink to dry.

 

If the Empire wants to continue existing in any substantial form, they need to realize that they can't force unilateral conditions on their willing nations anymore. They need to work with them, not order them around like mere subjects unfit to make their own decisions. If they don't, they will die a slow political death. And the fight will be taken up(perhaps rightly so) by a cooperative effort between all 4 human provinces. That will happen with or without the Empire.

Edited December 15, 2016 by khyloskye

[Padre86]

 

It's rather disingenuous to claim that when recent Imperial decisions not only threw Skyrim under the bus, but Hammerfell as well.

Poppycock. The Empire agreed to hand over territories already occupied by the enemy, it didn't throw Hammerfell under the bus. When Hammerfell's provincial government refused the terms, and practically guaranteed insurrection forces in the province that would have either required prolonging the War, or killing its own subjects, it cut them lose.

 

As for Skyrim, it was Ulfric who is responsible for its current situation. He's the one who raised a stink about a uninforced law, forcing a crackdown or risk treaty violation. Ulfric threw his own country under the bus for unclear reasons, and trying to pass the blame onto the Empire is the disingenuous thing.

 

Uhmmm...you're misrepresenting what really happened, and I think you know it. The significance of the White Gold Concordat wasn't that the Empire ceded some of its former territories (which it was in no position to reclaim anyhow), but rather that it agreed to all of the edicts (namely those relating to the worship of Talos) set forth by the Thalmor. The whole reason for the Empire's war with the Thalmor in the first place was that it didn't want to subvert itself to Thalmor edicts and influence, but it ended up doing just that following the final defeat of the Thalmor army in Cyrodil.

 

Hammerfell was thrown under the bus, or whatever phrase you want to use. When the Empire's capitol was attacked, the Empire withdrew its main forces from Hammerfell, leaving the Redguards to fight the Thalmor unsupported (with the exception of a few loyal legionnaires who continued to fight with them). And are you really going to blame the Redguards for resisting the Thamor offensive instead of seeking peace through submission? Really? Why would any race, be it man or elven, want to subject itself to that kind of autocratic rule?

 

As for Ulfric and Skyrim...unenforced laws? Uh, no. The Thalmor were actively patrolling Imperial provinces, looking for dissents and "trouble-makers" to interrogate and dispose of, even before Ulfric started to raise a "stink." Why do you think all of the surviving Blades had to go in hiding after the Great War? For all the faults of Ulfric, which I agree there are some, the Stormcloak rebellion was in response to legitimate concerns over a spreading Thalmor influence. Most Nords, even most stormcloaks, don't hate the Empire, they just don't respect it nor do they agree with how it handled the aftermath of the Great War. They almost universally all hate the Thalmor and want to deal with them on their own terms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ulfric knows the Aldmeri are a long term threat, and he is the type of person who is smart enough to realize that Skyrim has potential allies in that fight.

 

 

Is he? He is unaware of the dubious loyalties of his own supporters, the rather clear manipulation at the hands of the enemy, or the sacrificing of valuable allies for the sake of displays of power. Ulfric is not a smart man. He is a broken man desperately trying to atone for a perceived crime, who is doing far more damage in that attempt.

 

 

A few things we need to clarify:

1) Who do you consider to be Ulfric's dubious supporters?

2) The Thalmor may have manipulated Ulfric into believing that he gave up valuable information during the Great War. The Thalmor obviously want the Empire to be weakened by intenral strife (an ongoing civill war with the Nords). But the Thalmor by no means want an independent Skyrim being ruled by an anti-Thalmor Nord. The Thalmor at the very least had reluctant acceptance and submission from the Imperials (and Nords when they were under Imperial rule). They will have outright hostile resistance from the Redguards, likely from the Orcs as well, and now, with an independent Skyrim, they have hostile Nords to deal with as well...you're kidding yourself if you think this is what the Thalmor wanted.

3) You really think that the Nord who deftly used politics and martial prowess to build up his reputation and earn support for his cause through a variety of power plays (suppressing the Foresworn Rebellion, Challenging the High King Toryg, winning over half the Nordic holds through dipolomacy and conquering the other half) to eventually become High King of a mostly unified Skyrim is "not smart?" Arrogant? Egotistical? Vengeful? Self-centered? Guilt complex? Yes to all of those...but you don't overthrow a powerful overlord regime and declare yourself High King by being dumb.

 

 

 

 

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have every reason to continue to support the Empire in it's fight against the Elves (if for nothing else than to have a buffer state).

The problem is, they don't. Because Ulfric doesn't have absolute power. He has 2 Jarls who want nothing more than to watch the Empire burn, regardless of it's value, and if he were to suddenly voice support for the Empire after fighting so hard to break away from them, it would almost certainly spark another civil war.

Ulfric is damning his own country to lack of allies, and an inability to contribute to that greater front.

 

 

A) Again, which Jarls are you referring to? And what quotes or evidence do you have to indicate this about their attitudes? And why do you doubt Ulfric's power over his Jarls?

B) A Jarl is still a Jarl and has to obey the High King. If the High King decided that the Nords needed to join forces with other factions, like the Imperials, to fight a common enemy, a Jarl would be hard-pressed to disobey such orders without a good reason, and a big army.

C) The Nords have other allies in future fights with the Thamlor (Redguards, Orcs, maybe even the Dunmer). Skyrim is anything but lacking in allies because there are plenty of other satellite provinces that have been marginalized under Imperial rule and are just as eager to ward off Thalmor advances. I simply brought up the Imperial issue to point out that, at the end of the day, the Nords and Imperial have a common enemy in the form of the Thalmor. Whether the Imperials and Nords end up fighting in coordination against future Thalmor threats is purely speculation...I simply point out that it is not uncommon for former enemies to put aside their differences when facing bigger, common threats.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2016 by Padre86

[Caerulean]

It sounds like you are assuming that the Imperials have completely surrendered to the Thalmor. They are perfectly aware the truce will not last and are most likely preparing for another war with them. If the Stormcloaks were able to muster a force while the Thalmor are in Skyrim, why can't the Empire muster theirs? The problem is that the pretense that the Empire completely surrendered have lost them the trust/faith of a number of Nords and other races, and that the we are barely shown evidences that prove the Empire is indeed not sleeping. But I think patience is important in war. And so is a little fear, which both the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks seem to be lacking. They are way too confident or prideful that they will win. If Ulfric fails to convince the rest of the Empire and the other provinces because of the Civil War which he started, what then? His plan seems to be quite plainly to overthrow the Empire then the Aldmeri Dominion. How much time do the Stormcloaks have to conquer Cyrodiil and then forge new alliances with the other races before the Dominion acts? I think the Empire is better prepared for a retaliation against the Dominion, and that the Civil War was such a bad move that only helps the Dominion more. How many more bad moves will Ulfric make?

 

There is a book in-game that says/insinuates that the acceptance of the White-Gold Concordat was part of the Empire's strategy. (Found a copy in the shack with a bear but I forgot the name. D:) I think that by letting the enemy into their territory, they are also learning more about them. "Know Thine Enemy" as they say, or "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.". I'm quite certain the Empire will learn more about the Thalmor than the other way around, being that they've been into northern Tamriel while so few, if any, have been to Summerset Isles. And that Hammerfell is not that bitter towards the Empire. Perhaps by letting the Thalmor into Cyrodiil and Skyrim, the Dominion are spread farther, decreasing their numbers in certain areas; few enough that Hammerfell was able to send some Alik'r to look for a fugitive who sold Taneth to the Thalmor, for example. (But whether Kematu or Saadia was telling the truth is a topic for another day. :3) The question is how much can the Empire communicate with their neighbors as we've been shown little of the Empire's movements in-game.

[Lachdonin]

"The Empire agreed to hand over territories already occupied by the enemy, it didn't throw Hammerfell under the bus. When Hammerfell's provincial government refused the terms..."

 

^-- That's just the kind of imperial language that is the underlying force(besides the Thalmor) behind these rebellions. You speak of those territories as Imperial first and Hammerfell's second, as well as referring to Hammerfell's own government as merely "provincial".

 

Hammerfell has been a legislative territory of the Empire for 700 years, and made no move to secede during the Stormcrown Interregnum. It was not a vassal of the Empire, it was a Province under the authority of the Imperial Crown. It was basically a State government under the Federal, not an independent country of it's own.

 

 

That will happen with or without the Empire.

 

No, it won't. in fact, it has NEVER happened without the Empire. Even the All Flags Navy, the only time in Tamriel's history that the factions united against a common enemy, was orchestrated by the Alessian Empire.

 

 

 

Uhmmm...you're misrepresenting what really happened, and I think you know it. The significance of the White Gold Concordat wasn't that the Empire ceded some of its former territories (which it was in no position to reclaim anyhow), but rather that it agreed to all of the edicts (namely those relating to the worship of Talos) set forth by the Thalmor. The whole reason for the Empire's war with the Thalmor in the first place was that it didn't want to subvert itself to Thalmor edicts and influence, but it ended up doing just that following the final defeat of the Thalmor army in Cyrodil.

 

After a change in circumstance and a confrontation with their own weakness.

 

The Empire won NOTHING from the Great War. It suffered catastrophic losses of manpower, infastructure and territory (the latter of which it was in no position to reclaim following the Battle of the Red Ring anyway) and was entirely without any context of the Dominion's continued strength.

 

The Empire was presented with a choice. Agree to the terms laid out originally, or continue a war against an enemy of unknown strength, with the knowledge that they themselves didn't even have the ability to reclaim lost territory. The disputed lands were already in the hands of the enemy, the Empire had nothing to negotiate with, and it certainly had no way to protect the entire border from a potential second offensive with it's depleted forces. By agreeing to the Concordant, the Empire at least gained some minor insight into the Dominion's position, if for no reason beyond the fact that they didn't demand even MORE.

 

 

 

Hammerfell was thrown under the bus, or whatever phrase you want to use. When the Empire's capitol was attacked, the Empire withdrew its main forces from Hammerfell, leaving the Redguards to fight the Thalmor unsupported (with the exception of a few loyal legionnaires who continued to fight with them). And are you really going to blame the Redguards for resisting the Thamor offensive instead of seeking peace through submission? Really? Why would any race, be it man or elven, want to subject itself to that kind of autocratic rule?

 

Those 'few loyal legionnaires' formed the backbone of the Alak'r Warriors who drove the Dominion back across the desert, and held the line in Hammerfell for 5 years. And even with them, against a supposedly 'weakened' enemy, the Redguard were unable to reclaim the occupied territories in a land that has historically only been beneficial to them.

 

The Empire decided it wasn't worth throwing lives away with the uncertainty of success. The Redguard clearly disagreed, and ended up devastating some of the most densely populated regions of Hammerfell in a 5 year war that ultimately resulted in a truce, rather than the supposed victory Imperial Opponents like to imagine was possible.

 

Had Hammerfell sucked it up and waited, it's likely the Dominion would have been forced to relinquish the territories through a mix of local insurrection and the fact that literally only the Redguard have ever managed to thrive in that environment.

 

 

As for Ulfric and Skyrim...unenforced laws? Uh, no. The Thalmor were actively patrolling Imperial provinces, looking for dissents and "trouble-makers" to interrogate and dispose of, even before Ulfric started to raise a "stink." Why do you think all of the surviving Blades had to go in hiding after the Great War?

 

Those agents were present BEFORE the Great War, and had been fighting a shadow war against the Blades (who, apparently, had chosen not to inform the Empire of anything for more than a century) for a very long time. After the Blades were officially outlawed, this would have gotten worse, because they would have been unable to call any attention to the Thalmor infiltration, but there's nothing to indicate that the Thalmor were given free reign to hunt Blades within Imperial Borders.

 

There is absolutely NO evidence that the wider inquisition against Talos Worship was present in the Empire before the arrest of Ulfric following the Markarth Incident. In fact, the only actual source we have about how things were handled during that period, Hadvar, indicates that people kept on doing their thing, maintaining their shrines and worshiping Talos anyway, UNTIL Ulfric's stunt called attention to the lack enforcement. The fact that numerous rather high profile individuals in Skyrim are Talos Worshipers (including the former High King, Balgruf and the Empire's freaking Second-in-Command) also indicates that the enforcement was ignored for some time, at least long enough for people like Hadvar and Torygg to grow up in a post-war environment.

 

 

 

A few things we need to clarify:

1) Who do you consider to be Ulfric's dubious supporters?

 

There are a few levels of dubous here.

 

First, you have Skald the Elder. While he staunchly supports Ulfric, he also hates Imperials and the Empire, to the extent that he threatens an otherwise loyal subject for simply wearing their armour (which is functionally superior to Stormcloak armour) or taking pride in military service. Do you think he'd really turn around and support the Empire in a war?

 

Second, you have Korir, who doesn't even believe in Ulfric's cause and only supports the Stormcloaks because he hates Imperial control. He doesn't even seem too concerned about Skyrim, but rather Winterhold specifically, and would be unlikely to do anything that didn't directly benefit his holdings. Invade Morrowind? sure. Help Cyrodiil fight off the Dominion? Probably not. Backstab Whiterun and invade it's territories while it's armies are away? Maybe.

 

Third, you have Dengier, who isn't mentally fit to rule dress himself, let alone rule a Hold. His declining mental health is highly characterised by his rampant paranoia, and suspicion that everyone is an Imperial Spy out to get him. If Ulfric were to turn around and propose supporting the Imperials, how do you think the man who suspects his own nurse maid of spying on him would take it?

 

 

 

2) The Thalmor may have manipulated Ulfric into believing that he gave up valuable information during the Great War. The Thalmor obviously want the Empire to be weakened by intenral strife (an ongoing civill war with the Nords). But the Thalmor by no means want an independent Skyrim being ruled by an anti-Thalmor Nord. The Thalmor at the very least had reluctant acceptance and submission from the Imperials (and Nords when they were under Imperial rule). They will have outright hostile resistance from the Redguards, likely from the Orcs as well, and now, with an independent Skyrim, they have hostile Nords to deal with as well...you're kidding yourself if you think this is what the Thalmor wanted.

 

The Thalmor want a continued war in Skyrim, yes, but the Dossier indicates they are far more concerned with an Imperial Victory than a Stormcloak one, to the point where they were willing to directly intervene to save Ulfric from the Imperials (resulting in Elenwyn's presence at Helgen). They are so afraid of an Imperial victory that they were willing to blow everything to keep Ulfric from reaching the Imperial City, or being execute. Think about that before you start evaluating how dangerous the Dominion thinks 'Hostile Nords' are.

 

 

 

3) You really think that the Nord who deftly used politics and martial prowess to build up his reputation and earn support for his cause through a variety of power plays (suppressing the Foresworn Rebellion, Challenging the High King Toryg, winning over half the Nordic holds through dipolomacy and conquering the other half) to eventually become High King of a mostly unified Skyrim is "not smart?" Arrogant? Egotistical? Vengeful? Self-centered? Guilt complex? Yes to all of those...but you don't overthrow a powerful overlord regime and declare yourself High King by being dumb.

 

Deftly nothing. He murdered a potential ally that could have swung the balance to an entire Province-Wide revolt just to show off his personal power, and he turned aside another to show off his armies. The Holds he has the support of are either rabidly anti-Imperial, or totally inept (Laila) and would have required very little prompting. He manages no military victories without the PC moving the plot forward (and thus the PC choosing the opposing side could counterbalance that) and whose only concrete military actions involved getting himself ambushed and captured by the Imperials while safely inside his own territory, and sacking Markarth (incidentally preventing the Reachmen from doing exactly what he then turned around and decided to do) with the heavy implication that his intervention there was prompted by the Thalmor. He's a brute force, easily manipulated folk-hero with barely any knowledge of his peoples own ancestral traditions.

 

 

 

B) A Jarl is still a Jarl and has to obey the High King. If the High King decided that the Nords needed to join forces with other factions, like the Imperials, to fight a common enemy, a Jarl would be hard-pressed to disobey such orders without a good reason, and a big army.

 

Except, many times Jarls have refused the High King's edicts. There have been at least 2 major civil wars over it in Skyrim, during the Alliance War the majority of Holds outright broke away and elected their own High King instead of listen to Jorun's decisions. As Tullius says, the Jarl's aren't just local dignitaries, they're KINGS, and they are free to do whatever they please, and the High Kings have always had a hard time reigning them in (typically resulting to force).