Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Padre86]

 

 

 

WTF? You're reading way too much into the intro. The AD wanted Ulfric to be kept alive, no doubt. But where are you getting all of this junk about the AD freeing Ulfric?

 

 

The Dominion views Ulfric as essential to the Stormcloak cause, and the Dossier makes it clear they they were willing to directly interfere to ensure he didn't die. We then see Elenwyn at Helgen, when the Empire is about to execute him. That alone is suspicious enough, but the cut content has her demanding custody, citing the Talos ban under the White Gold Concordant, and Tullius refusing. She then threatens to inform the Emperor of his treachery, before Tullius turns around and walks away.

 

Now, again, from what i've heard of the sound files, this was probably cut because it kinda sounded like crap. But the implication is pretty clear. The Dominion tried to take custody of Ulfric. Whether they had a Plan-B in case Tullius refused or not isn't clear, and the only indication is Elenwyn and some Justicars hanging out around Helgen after the opening sequence, but i personally think that's more a technical layover of having her there for the intro and not an indication of anything story related. Still, combined with the Dossier, it's pretty obvious that they were trying to prevent Ulfric from being executed. He does them no favours by being dead, or in jail, so the only reasonable assumption is that they planned for him to 'escape' after they took custody.

 

 

Also, your speculation that Vietnam or the American colonies would have lost without outside support is just that....speculation.

 

Not so much in the case of the American Revolution. The rebellion was practically over, before the English withdrew and left what basically amounted to cleanup in the hands of Hessian mercenaries. This only served to galvanise support for a failing rebellion, as the Germans drank and looted, culminating in the Crossing of the Delaware and a resurgence of Washington's rebels (against a bunch of drunk mercs who barely put up a fight). Had England not been forced to commit it's own military elsewhere, the rebels would have lost.

 

 

1) Are those cut scenes even within the game? If not, why are you even bringing them up? The only thing that we know from the Thalmor dossier is that the Thalmor at one point considered Ulfric to be an "asset" (which is a vague term in and of itself) but that he was uncooperative at the time of the Dragonborn's spy mission. The dossier also clearly states, that both an Imperail victory and a Stormcloak victory are to be avoided. The dossier notes that Thalmor policy with Ulfirc and the conflict in general was "hands-off" but that the Helgen incident was an exception to that policy; there are no specifics given as to what the Thalmor were trying to do, but no mention is made of an outright rescue mission nor are there indications of one in the opening scenes. Anything else that you want to infer from that dossier is purely speculation.

 

2) The American Revolution wasn't "over" prior to Washington's raid across the Deleware, as there were still tens of thousands of British troops (mostly English, not German) stationed throughout North America conducting garrison duties and preparing for the upcoming campaign season. The Rebel capitol hadn't been captured by the British and there were still several Continental armies, and state militias, that the British had yet to defeat. Washinton's success at the Deleware crossing had just as much to do with the element of surprise and boldness of the attack as it had to do with the Hessian's lack of preparedness. And your speculation that the rebels would've lost had England committed more troops is just that....speculation. As it was, the Brits had committed nearly 50k troops to that war, and that's not even counting the Loytalist auxiliaries and German mercenaries...that number is not insignificant considering the size of England's overall military and the scope of standard land battles of that era.

 

Your comparisons to the American Revolution, and to Vietnam for that matter, are overly simplified and reliant on speculation (similar to many of your other posts regarding Ulfirc and Stormcloak/Imperial conflict). You're probably better off leaving those historical analogies aside for future discussion.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Padre86

[monganfinn]

historical analogies

To be fair to Lachdonin I have to point ou that most of these comparisons were put on the table by others as we wanted to prove that the smaller stormcloak army could defeat a larger, more regimented foe. He also isn´t really wrong, however I do believe he simplifies things too much, but all of these examples simply prove that war is more than just counting the troops and accounting for location etc. Unforseen things happen! Skyrim´s game itself also seems to indicate to me that if there had not been an intervention by the dragonborn or the dragons (+ lets exclude the capture of Ulfric at the beginning) the cloaks could have won against the numerically superior and more regimented legions in Skyrim. If you look the course of the civil war and Ulfric´s dialogue you see that his army steadily grows and that while he at first didn´t have enough troops to attack Whiterun, later on he had them.

This just shows that his small warband was growing and expanding, until they began to match the strength of Skyrim´s legions. I admit that this argument probably solves nothing as we will never know how the siege of Whiterun would have turned out if the LDB wouldn´t have taken part in it.

 

Something I totally disagree on with Lachdonin is his opinion that so many of the Stormcloak supporting chars ingame are mentally ill! Beth makes it quite clear with other chars (Narfi, Solitude Sheo worshipper) that they are crazy, they would not need to make it subtle in the Civil War questline.

[Caerulean]

IIRC, Bethesda had problems making the Imperials as likeable as the Stormcloaks and it does show. Even the Race Menu describes Imperials as corrupt and shrewd. :3 Not entirely true, though not entirely false either.

 

On another note, the priestess of Talos in Riften refuses the pamphlet from the Temple of Mara. Makes me think that many Stormcloak supporters/members are neglecting their faith in the other Divines. *shrug*

 

I wonder which side would the deities take, including the Daedric Princes, if they ever would. They'd probably just stay neutral. Meridia probably wants an end to war is it only provides more corpses for necromancers (e.g. Malkoran, Lu'ah, etc.). Azura might favor the Imperials because her dark elves are being oppressed in Windhelm and because the Empire did 'help' them by allowing/inviting them into Skyrim when the Red Mountain erupted. (Not saying all dark elves worship her though.)

[khyloskye]

IIRC, Bethesda had problems making the Imperials as likeable as the Stormcloaks and it does show. Even the Race Menu describes Imperials as corrupt and shrewd. :3 Not entirely true, though not entirely false either.

 

I agree. I think coming off of Oblivion, Beth needed to downplay the Imperials somewhat in order for players to see the Stormcloaks as likable. I would bet the whole Concordat business was precisely for that reason. The problem is striking a proper balance. Too little and players might not give the Stormcloaks a chance, too much and players might abandon Imperials all together. I think they did a pretty good job with that balance, these forum topics are certainly a testament to that lol.

[Padre86]

IIRC, Bethesda had problems making the Imperials as likeable as the Stormcloaks and it does show. Even the Race Menu describes Imperials as corrupt and shrewd. :3 Not entirely true, though not entirely false either.

 

On another note, the priestess of Talos in Riften refuses the pamphlet from the Temple of Mara. Makes me think that many Stormcloak supporters/members are neglecting their faith in the other Divines. *shrug*

 

 

 

I don't recall that particular interaction, but I do notice throughout the game many Nords have some skepticism or indifference to the 9 Divines (which was very much a product of Alessia combining some deities from the Elven belief system and some from the human belief system). Many Nords seem to have greater respect for the traditional Nordic gods and goddesses, some of whom are also shared with the Imperial's 9 Divines and some of whom aren't. Granted, Mara is a deity both in the 9 Divinies and in the traditional Nordic system, but it does appear that many Nords view some of these shared deities in a different light.

 

For example, I forget which quest, but there was an instance where a Nord NPC made the distinction between Kynareth (one of the 9) and Kyne (the traditional Nordic deity) though they are essentially variations of the same deity.

 

There is some good reading on this both in game and online:

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nine_Divines

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nordic_Pantheon

 

And it certainly helps explain why the Thalmor are so intent on banning the worship of Talos (whom they view as a false god, since according to them it's impossible for men to ascend to godhood) and why they hate Lorkhan (who they traditionally considered to be a trickster). And on the other side of the coin, it's easy to understand why so many Nords are pissed at the Thalmor policy (and the Imperials who signed off on it) because Talos (or Ysmir) is a Nord who ascended into deity status and Lorkhan (who they call Shor) has historically helped men (unlike many other deities) and is the creator of Sovngarde (where their honored go in the afterlife).

 

Honestly, I didn't really pay attention to a lot of the religious context when I first played this game. But now that I know more about it, the political environment of the game and the power struggles going on make a lot more sense.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Padre86

[skyquest32]

Upon complete consideration, I would support the empire, viewing it as right and best for skyrim, yet I also admire Ulfric, following in Talos footsteps...or more truly I admire Talos. Yet I dislike Ulfric's stormcloaks very much, and moreover find them distasteful, so a character of mine could not support him and his elf hatred, from a role playing point of view....his hypocrisy, pettiness and shortsightedness are also a bit much.

[MidbossVyers]

What elf hatred beyond his hatred for the Thalmor?

[monganfinn]

: What elf hatred beyond his hatred for the Thalmor?

None, we do not get any dialogue lines/actions from Ulfric which would indicate he hates elves as a whole any more than the average Nord.

 

IMO we cannot say what´s best for Skyrim, the future will show us that. After all we cannot say if the Empire will ever recover (with or without Skyrim) and if it doesn´t I find it more logical to cut off the rotting limb rather than let Skyrim be dragged down with it. Thus we have to decide according to personal preferences, and if I play a char whose life centers around Skyrim I´d rather have a ruler who worked for his status and leads by himself and at least claims to act on behalf of his people rather than a puppet queen like Elisif.

 

I find it quite funny that anyone can admire Talos, considering he is the amalgam of 3 people who betrayed and hated each other. And Tiber Septim/Hjalti, the person most consider to be Talos, is a powerhungry, treacherous, egomaniac who will cause the destruction of Nirn because he activated the Numidium! Curse you, Vivec! - who probably knew this would happen whe he gave the machine god to Tiber in the first place.

[tnu]

I've still never taken a side in the Civil War because I've alwyas been of the mind that Skyrim should not be under the thumb of a k ing or an emperor

[Amoryenar]

Hear me out here.

 

Yes, the White Gold Concordat is a load of bull, if you played Oblivion, Talos Worship is EVERYWHERE, the fact that the Thalmor hated Talos is reason enough to hate them =_=

 

Talos is a wonderful god and you cannot tell me otherwise!!!

 

But if you HATE THE THALMOR: join the Imperials. They were forced to accept the treaty to end the war, they never wanted to, but they had to. If you listen to some of the conversations, they outward speak out against that particular detail, the banning of Talos worship. Talos killed Elves, it's no wonder they don't consider him a god, but then you realize the Summerset Isles don't even really worship the 9 :|

 

The Imperials have an ulterior motive: Remove the Thalmor from Skyrim(and eventually the other provinces) due to this Concordat(which would incite another war, but I think the Empire would be more than ready, given time).

 

If Ulfric's rebellion were to succeed, the Empire would be removed from Skyrim, thus allowing the Thalmor to move in. Ulfric doesn't realize this, he's too damn blind.

 

The Thalmor are fully aware that the Empire wants to push them out, but cannot act on an accusation, they need proof. Solid proof. They don't have it.

 

Now, with Ulfric, oh they have it.

 

People keep saying Skyrim doesn't need a King... High King is basically an honorary position =_= Skyrim has been a member of the Empire since Talos founded it, they have ALWAYS served the Emperor. At the same time, each province does have its own laws, regulations, and rulers, but those rulers swear fealty to the Emperor. Managing a Kingdom is a very delicate process.

 

Basically, if Ulfric's rebellion won, the Thalmor would swing in, full force, with nothing to hold them back. Skyrim would then be under Thalmor command and you know what they'd do with that command?

 

s#*! on every tradition Skyrim has and outlaw it(pardon the language).

 

So all in all, the Empire, to me, is the only side to choose.

 

I've played both sides, however, for the sake of it, and honestly, the Empire is more productive.

 

TL;DR

Empire all day, every day.