Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Padre86]

Been a bit since I was last here. Jeez, so there have been people who claimed that the Stormcloaks were f***in' Nazies eh? I will say that the Stormcloaks are more like the confederates, than Nazies. The Thalmor are more Nazies, and the Imperials I'd probably have to say are democrats.

 

The Stormcloaks are nationalists, though that word has come to have negative implications in recent history.

 

Historically speaking, many of the extreme, right-wing groups (Nazi's, KKK and other race-oriented groups) could be considered nationalists, but not all nationalist groups could, or should, be considered to be part of the extreme right.

 

The Stormcloaks care about an independent Skyrim. Excepting a few drunks in Windhelm, they really don't go out of their way to harass or persecute other ethnic groups. Compared to the very bloody ethnic conflicts that have taken place in Tamriel, historically and in recent years (Dunmer vs Argonians, Dunmer slavery in general, Thalmor purges and views of racial superiority), I'd say the views of the Stormcloaks are quite tame and moderate.

 

They're nationalists. There is no indication whatsoever that they're planning enslavement or racial genocide against the other races.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Padre86

[khyloskye]

They're nationalists. There is no indication whatsoever that they're planning enslavement or racial genocide against the other races.

 

 

Yeah. They are only partially isolationist (Nords still volunteer for Imperial armies), and mildly discriminatory (a few a-holes in Windhelm does a racist nation make), and I agree that compared to some other groups, especially certain Mer, they are hardly the disgusting haters some make them out to be.

 

One thing I find interesting about this thread is how people seem to want to interject our real world civility (and their own personal beliefs) into the TES narrative. In just the thread above me you see the words Nazi, nationalist, racial superiority, and democrat of all things lol. That all seems so weird to me, especially when people want to take things so personally. There's no reason to think that just because a player likes a certain group/person, that that person should then be considered as identifying with said group/person.

 

I mean, I'm a huge Bernie Sanders supporter, and a white guy. Yet when it comes to the game Skyrim, I dislike the Empire, like the Stormcloaks, and prefer to be a Redguard when playing. I choose those things because I think they make a more interesting story for how I play the game, it doesn't really have much to do with needing to identify with any group or person. To me, Tamriel is not a reflection of Earth. It is entirely its own world with its own history and customs. And trying to project our own human experience into the game just seems so wrong to me. Let it be what it is: a make-believe fantasy world of wondrous possibilities that has very little to do with real life on Earth.

[jpmonteith]

I forgot this thread existed. I could agree with seeing the Elder Scrolls as just another fantasy world, but it's a fantasy world with a buncha' political nonsense in it you gotta' join in on, and solve either way. I guess unlike real life, where not just any random asshole could jump in and change things however way they please. Personally, I actually quite hate the empire cause my first experience with them coming into Skyrim is they try to chop off my head for crossing a border. Why would I ever wanna help them after that. Plus later with more knowledge toward the empire, figuring how the Septim bloodline's ended and how there's apparently lore about how some jackoff named "Titus Mede" took over by causing his own civil war, while a buncha' politicians were arguing over who would take over as the new ruler, plus a bigger hatred of the empire, what with how empire supporters in reality have tended to act in my experience, claiming their side as right, as if there's nothing faulty with the plan of helping out the guys who have no real emperor, can't keep their current "emperor" alive, and who already lost a couple wars already to a warlord, and a buncha' pansy ass high elves. Personally, I kinda feel no guilt bein' a screaming lizard that joins up with the Stormcloaks to boot this "empire" and their yellow skinned butt buddies out of the cold land scape. Way I see it, helpin' the empire means helpin' those Thalmor pieces of s#*! with barely a good bone in their body except mine after I'm done f*#@in' them in the ass with my dragon bone warhammer.

[monganfinn]

 

Titus Mede" took over by causing his own civil war

he ended the interregnum after the death of Ocato, he didn´t start it however

 

that said, one of the above posts said something that resonated with me, if I play as a Nord dragonborn I always want to emulate Wulfharth and he would certainly not tolerate the Mede Empire´s hold on Skyrim. To me, a dragonborn overthrowing an empire and helping found a new young and rising kingdom is a far better story than a dragonborn beating down a rebellion of his kin that seek to venerate his forebear.

And in Tamriel songs are everything!

 

Another argument I often hear is that the Nords should seek to hold together the Empire Talos build, but the current empire is most certainly not the empire of Tiber Septim and Talos, it is the Empire of the Mede no matter how much they want to hold onto the name of the Septims to legitimize themselves!

[nayakri]

I've been passing through this topic many times, but I always stood aside - the temptation is too strong, however.

 

The problems with me when it comes to joining the Empire or the Stormcloaks is the fact that I usually prefer to stay neutral. Most of my characters belive that this war is either foolish or doesn't care about it. I have joined the Empire many times, but I have joined the Stormcloaks far more times.

 

Personally, I believe Bethesda failed with not giving us a way to end things peacefully - as a tough and very difficult task that would be very rewarding at least mentally. I'm even writing some drafts on the side about the Moot and other candidate to the throne, should I ever decide to make them real. But back to the topic.

 

Empire

Their biggest advantage is the fact they have big part of Tamriel as their allies and they are planning to take back what Thalmor took from them. They represent an united nation, well-organised and cooperating with each other. Every man and woman of every race can join the army to fight for their freedom and beliefs (yes, I know, read further). They have great spies, politicians, and warriors under their banner, therefore are the greatest threat to the Aldmeri Dominium.

 

But not everything is merry, of course. What I just mentioned is what most people will tell us and what we will see at the first glance. Let's take it down to the pieces.

 

White-Gold Concordat

Personally, I agree with Ulfric on this part - the Emperor was an idiot to accept the terms. If I understand the history correctly, both the Empire and the Dominium were at that moment on the same position, both victorious and beaten. Signing a truce to get prepared for the next round was a cunning decision, but what Mede did is bewildering for me. Hundreds of people died... only for him to accept the initial conditions that were made by the Dominium. Why?! He could have bargained for something else. In this way, he made fools of people who sacrificed so much for the war - example being Ulfric.

 

Racial equality

What we are told to believe by many in game, is that the Empire is far more tolerable of other races than the racist Stormcloak, which is a cheap card since neither Stormcloaks are racist, nor the Empire so tolerable as we are lead to believe. Everything depends of the character of people you are dealing with - racism is something belonging to individuals or small groups believing in similar values. Being the part of the Empire doesn't guarantee you that others will respect you despite your race.

 

Culture ignorance

When we enter Sovngarde and speak with Torygg, he questions Ulfric's honour but the fairness of their duel. Therefore, it gets obvious that the duel was fair and square. Moreover, everything indicates that in the past, only the most respected or the strongest Nord could claim the throne - hence this Moot thing. And yes, there is even some book about it in the game, stating that the Moot is today only theatrics to choose the heir of the former High King. But Ulfric said no and decided to prove that Torygg has neither strength or skill to be the ruler. Challenged him and won, as Torygg implies, fairly but without honour (using Thu'um isn't the bravest idea even when you know that your oponent stands no chance against you).

 

So what's the whole thing about? What is with that war?

 

Imperial ignorance. For them, killing your ruler is one of the worst crimes that can be commited, therefore, they do not understand that Nordic custom actually allows to defeat the unfitting ruler in a fair duel. Would this whole war happen should they accept Ulfric's claim? It would still be the Moot's decision, but... you know. They didn't even stop for a second to wonder if it wasn't in fact a "legal kill". Though to be honest, I have a feeling everything started with Elisif - I can imagine her yelling "murderer!" and "guards!" the moment Ulfric's sword ended her husband's life.

 

Acceptance of Thalmor presence

All right, I get this is complicated and that both the Dominium and the Empire are kind of in stalemate, but I have a feeling that Thalmor is allowed far too much. Even Tullius will tell you during the Thalmor party that Ulfric is right when it comes to the Empire! (I'm not sure if the talk happens in the game, I found it in CK). Those Altmer agents act like little princelings and walk wherever they want and do whatever they want. Aside from the Stormcloaks, only one person in the game actually says "no" to Elenwen:

 

General Tullius during Helgen (the dialogue was cut out and only Elenwen words were recorded, but this is obvious she wanted to stop the execution and was threatening the man with the Emperor himself).

 

Seriously though, this is quite cowardly for the Empire, even if they are simply preparing for the round number two.

 

Stormcloaks

The Empire will tell you that these are savage and racist brutes, murderers and thugs, traitors to their own country. The Stormcloaks will tell you that they are fighting for freedom, honour, and their believes. Wait a moment - isn't it the same with the Empire? Yes, it is. The Stormcloaks are proud of what they are and eager to sacrifice their lives for their cause (mostly, at least). Many are devouted to their leader's cause and dream of Skyrim of their ancestors. And when the time comes for them, they go proudly to the Sovngarde.

 

But let's keep awake, shall we?

 

Racists

I'm still quite surprised to find people who say that Ulfric is a racist when he is not - he is indifferent. He doesn't treat you any better if you are a Nord, or any worse if you are of another race (I hope this wasn't Bethesda's laziness at writing dialogues). He doesn't also do anything with racial problems in his city, too. But this isn't topic about Ulfric. Let's take a look at Galmar. Here we have some issues, he is cautious towards you. There are also these two very nice Nords who nearly assault the Dunmer woman just as you enter the city - they are racists, no doubt.

 

But are the Stormcloaks actually racist? No, they don't seem to care much about your race.

 

Fair but not honourable

Ulfric says himself that Torygg stood no chance against him, which is later confirmed by Sybilla in Solitude - then why did he use Thu'um against the young man? What purpose it served? To prove that he can in fact Shout at people without many problems? They already knew that, he was famous for a reason after all. I must admit that Ulfric's reasoning is beyond me at this point and I count it as a part of his arrogance.

 

Thalmor manipulation

Everyone knows it. Tullius knows it. Rikke knows it. Balgruuf knows it. Ulfric and Galmar seems to be oblivious about it.

 

Elenwen manipulated Ulfric into starting this war.

 

This whole affair works for only one party: Aldmeri Dominium. Why? Just try to imagine a band of furious Nords, backed by the Empire army. A terrifying idea, no? But without Nords, the Empire has less chances to win with the Dominium, therefore, turning them on one another is a cunning move. And for the moment being, the seem to success - Ulfric is too blind to see it, others are too helpless to stop it happening.

 

Conclusion

Neither side is perfect and neither side is tempting for me. Depending on my character's behaviour and views, I join either of them or none at all, but personally, I'd really like to have a neutral choice - like kicking Elenwen's... yes, you get the idea.

Edited October 18, 2018 by nayakri

[Padre86]

I've been passing through this topic many times, but I always stood aside - the temptation is too strong, however.

 

The problems with me when it comes to joining the Empire or the Stormcloaks is the fact that I usually prefer to stay neutral. Most of my characters belive that this war is either foolish or doesn't care about it. I have joined the Empire many times, but I have joined the Stormcloaks far more times.

 

Personally, I believe Bethesda failed with not giving us a way to end things peacefully - as a tough and very difficult task that would be very rewarding at least mentally. I'm even writing some drafts on the side about the Moot and other candidate to the throne, should I ever decide to make them real. But back to the topic.

 

Empire

Their biggest advantage is the fact they have big part of Tamriel as their allies and they are planning to take back what Thalmor took from them. They represent an united nation, well-organised and cooperating with each other. Every man and woman of every race can join the army to fight for their freedom and beliefs (yes, I know, read further). They have great spies, politicians, and warriors under their banner, therefore are the greatest threat to the Aldmeri Dominium.

 

But not everything is merry, of course. What I just mentioned is what most people will tell us and what we will see at the first glance. Let's take it down to the pieces.

 

White-Gold Concordat

Personally, I agree with Ulfric on this part - the Emperor was an idiot to accept the terms. If I understand the history correctly, both the Empire and the Dominium were at that moment on the same position, both victorious and beaten. Signing a truce to get prepared for the next round was a cunning decision, but what Mede did is bewildering for me. Hundreds of people died... only for him to accept the initial conditions that were made by the Dominium. Why?! He could have bargained for something else. In this way, he made fools of people who sacrificed so much for the war - example being Ulfric.

 

Racial equality

What we are told to believe by many in game, is that the Empire is far more tolerable of other races than the racist Stormcloak, which is a cheap card since neither Stormcloaks are racist, nor the Empire so tolerable as we are lead to believe. Everything depends of the character of people you are dealing with - racism is something belonging to individuals or small groups believing in similar values. Being the part of the Empire doesn't guarantee you that others will respect you despite your race.

 

Culture ignorance

When we enter Sovngarde and speak with Torygg, he questions Ulfric's honour but the fairness of their duel. Therefore, it gets obvious that the duel was fair and square. Moreover, everything indicates that in the past, only the most respected or the strongest Nord could claim the throne - hence this Moot thing. And yes, there is even some book about it in the game, stating that the Moot is today only theatrics to choose the heir of the former High King. But Ulfric said no and decided to prove that Torygg has neither strength or skill to be the ruler. Challenged him and won, as Torygg implies, fairly but without honour (using Thu'um isn't the bravest idea even when you know that your oponent stands no chance against you).

 

So what's the whole thing about? What is with that war?

 

Imperial ignorance. For them, killing your ruler is one of the worst crimes that can be commited, therefore, they do not understand that Nordic custom actually allows to defeat the unfitting ruler in a fair duel. Would this whole war happen should they accept Ulfric's claim? It would still be the Moot's decision, but... you know. They didn't even stop for a second to wonder if it wasn't in fact a "legal kill". Though to be honest, I have a feeling everything started with Elisif - I can imagine her yelling "murderer!" and "guards!" the moment Ulfric's sword ended her husband's life.

 

Acceptance of Thalmor presence

All right, I get this is complicated and that both the Dominium and the Empire are kind of in stalemate, but I have a feeling that Thalmor is allowed far too much. Even Tullius will tell you during the Thalmor party that Ulfric is right when it comes to the Empire! (I'm not sure if the talk happens in the game, I found it in CK). Those Altmer agents act like little princelings and walk wherever they want and do whatever they want. Aside from the Stormcloaks, only one person in the game actually says "no" to Elenwen:

 

General Tullius during Helgen (the dialogue was cut out and only Elenwen words were recorded, but this is obvious she wanted to stop the execution and was threatening the man with the Emperor himself).

 

Seriously though, this is quite cowardly for the Empire, even if they are simply preparing for the round number two.

 

Stormcloaks

The Empire will tell you that these are savage and racist brutes, murderers and thugs, traitors to their own country. The Stormcloaks will tell you that they are fighting for freedom, honour, and their believes. Wait a moment - isn't it the same with the Empire? Yes, it is. The Stormcloaks are proud of what they are and eager to sacrifice their lives for their cause (mostly, at least). Many are devouted to their leader's cause and dream of Skyrim of their ancestors. And when the time comes for them, they go proudly to the Sovngarde.

 

But let's keep awake, shall we?

 

Racists

I'm still quite surprised to find people who say that Ulfric is a racist when he is not - he is indifferent. He doesn't treat you any better if you are a Nord, or any worse if you are of another race (I hope this wasn't Bethesda's laziness at writing dialogues). He doesn't also do anything with racial problems in his city, too. But this isn't topic about Ulfric. Let's take a look at Galmar. Here we have some issues, he is cautious towards you. There are also these two very nice Nords who nearly assault the Dunmer woman just as you enter the city - they are racists, no doubt.

 

But are the Stormcloaks actually racist? No, they don't seem to care much about your race.

 

Fair but not honourable

Ulfric says himself that Torygg stood no chance against him, which is later confirmed by Sybilla in Solitude - then why did he use Thu'um against the young man? What purpose it served? To prove that he can in fact Shout at people without many problems? They already knew that, he was famous for a reason after all. I must admit that Ulfric's reasoning is beyond me at this point and I count it as a part of his arrogance.

 

Thalmor manipulation

Everyone knows it. Tullius knows it. Rikke knows it. Balgruuf knows it. Ulfric and Galmar seems to be oblivious about it.

 

Elenwen manipulated Ulfric into starting this war.

 

This whole affair works for only one party: Aldmeri Dominium. Why? Just try to imagine a band of furious Nords, backed by the Empire army. A terrifying idea, no? But without Nords, the Empire has less chances to win with the Dominium, therefore, turning them on one another is a cunning move. And for the moment being, the seem to success - Ulfric is too blind to see it, others are too helpless to stop it happening.

 

Conclusion

Neither side is perfect and neither side is tempting for me. Depending on my character's behaviour and views, I join either of them or none at all, but personally, I'd really like to have a neutral choice - like kicking Elenwen's... yes, you get the idea.

 

 

From everything you've said, it seems that you're more aligned with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks rather than the Imperials, despite your initial statement to the contrary.

 

I agree with most of what you say: there really is no true right or wrong when looking at the Empire vs. Stormcloak conflict, rather varying shades of gray.

 

In most of my playthrough's (especially Nordic or 'honorable' warrior characters) I find myself much more sympathetic to the Stormcloaks for a variety of reasons: they are the underdogs; they have legitimate grievances (even if some of the members are flawed); they are smart and willing to talk, instead of killing everyone who disagrees with them (meeting with Empire, Thalmor and priests of High Rothgar, giving Jarl Balgruuf time to make a decision). I have found myself playing neutral or with the Empire at times, though not as often; it all depends on the character I've built (most are inclined to be melee warrior types).

 

I will dispute two things you said in your post:

1) The Empire is not nearly as efficient nor as capable (administratively or militarily) as it was in years past. I think many in the Legion are generally, good, honorable people who are trying to do right by the Empire. But having just taken massive losses, that force is a shadow of its former self. Moreover, it's government had seen a gradual decline in its capabilities since the end of the Septim dynasty (that has been hinted at in various in game sources) and certainly the capital's sacking during the Great War didn't help with that. I think Mede is vastly overrated, by players and loyal NPC's.

• He abandoned and alienated one of his main allies (Redguards) who ended up fighting the Thalmor to a stalemate mostly on their own,
• he lost the Imperial capital (though he did get it back, with a lot of help from the Nords),
• and even after destroying the main the Thalmor army, he still negotiated an embarrassingly submissive treaty (White Gold Concordat) which basically allows Thalmor agents to roam willy-nilly around the Empire, killing off anyone they don't like (Blades, Talos worshippers, random Nords) and enforcing Thalmor edicts (prohibition of Talos worship).

This last point of contention really seals the deal for me as a Nord. There is absolutely no reason a true Nord would allow foreign agents free access to Skyrim to capture, interrogate and kill Nords and enforce their foreign decrees. The Thalmor basically have a death camp killing Nords in the Nordic homeland. Even if there are some things to dislike about Ulfric, that right there is cause enough for me to join the Stormcloak cause.

 

2) Ulfric (not sure about how much Galmar knows) definitely knows the Thalmor are a manipulative force behind much of the ongoing tensions. He was tricked into thinking that he divulged critical information during the water and for a time was providing some contact to Thalmor agents. But the Thalmor diaries/dispatches are very clear that Ulfric has broken off his contact with the Thalmor (likely because he understood, at least partially, their intent). The Thalmor dispatches are also very clear that either side winning the war would be detrimental to the Thalmor cause. The Thalmor want Ulfric to exist, they don't want him to win. Their manipulation is limited to fomenting trouble, not creating an independent Noridc state. And it's debatable how much influence the Thalmor have truly had in all of this, as its quite obvious that even without Ulfric's leadership, there are many Nords who are dissatisfied with how the Imperials kowtowed to the Thalmor after the War.

 

I personally think that the Thalmor dispatches on Ulfric being an 'agent' are over-analyzed by too many. Ulfric's initial fault was hardly reprehensible; many people, even the strongest and most honorable, will fold under torture. His guilt and shame over the issue was more detrimental to him personally than it was to any allied forces who may have suffered from the Thalmor's gain (as the information was dated and useless). It's not at all clear in what capacity the Thalmor had contact with Ulfric after they released him, though he has broken off contact. It is quite clear that Ulfric dislikes the Empire, hates the Thalmor, and wants Skyrim to be free of foreign influence. It's not as though Ulfric's, and by extension, the Stormcloaks' cause is entirely derived from a seed the Thalmor planted...the movement itself is quite organic to the prevailing mood that exists in Nordic society.

[nayakri]

(I'm not sure how to quote only a part of your reply with stating you as an author, so I'll go without it)

 

Me being more for Ulfric

It's true. Though personally I'd go for neutral, I do favour Ulfric slightly - I like his three-dimensionalism, his complex personality, and I always had a soft spot for him. I think I pity the man, actually.

 

Empire

I'm not sure with what you are arguing here, my views are exactly the same as yours. (Maybe we misunderstood ourselves with my post somehow).

 

Ulfric's knowledge

I don't agree with him knowing about it much, but perhaps there is more to his arrogance than I thought.

 

I definitely disagree with the war being continued after Ulfric's death - heck, even Tullius knew about it and wanted to kill him so badly in the beginning of the game without making him a martyr (making him wait). Ulfric is charismatic and brave, and kind of cunning. He keeps the whole thing going with his person. But without him? Everything would fall apart. Galmar would try to save it, but let's be honest: he has neither Ulfric's patience or willingness to forgive (example being their initial disagreement on Balgruuf case). Without Ulfric to lead them, Stormcloaks would slowly lose their motivation and in the end, surrender to the reality.

 

And I definitely don't think Ulfric is an agent. No, I believe this theory goes a little too far and considering his history with Thalmor, is nearly impossible to be true.

 

But that's exactly the point! They made him fear Dominium and feel responsible for losing the Imperial City. He could react in only two ways: break or fight for what he thinks is necessary. And he did what they wanted him to do: he decided to fight.

 

 

After looking at how much I just wrote about the Empire and about Ulfric, I have to admit that perhaps I favour Ulfric a little more than just slightly... Well, what can I say? Tullius is a nice guy but not as much interesting as the Jarl of Windhelm.

[jpmonteith]

I say just let the empire crumble, maybe even help it crumble, rather than work as its life support.

[nayakri]

I say just let the empire crumble, maybe even help it crumble, rather than work as its life support.

Considering what actually happens in each guild in Skyrim, we work as life support for every possible group - how did they survive without the player for so long is beyond me, really.

 

But seriously, I don't see anything good in making the Empire crumble - its weak, embarrassing at the moment, and partially annoying, but it is still the only thing that can stand up to the Dominium when the time comes.

[Elimc]

 

 

But seriously, I don't see anything good in making the Empire crumble - its weak, embarrassing at the moment, and partially annoying, but it is still the only thing that can stand up to the Dominium when the time comes.

 

See, if that were true, I'd agree with you. But it's not. The Dominion already beat the Empire, and right now, even if the Empire wins Skyrim back easily, its never going to get as strong as it was during the great war, while the AD is still growing. Trying to do the same thing as last time, and letting the AD dictate the terms of engagement by going on the defensive is not going to ever allow the Empire, or anyone else, to ever beat the AD. The only option is to try something they don't expect and catch them off guard. But trying to repeat the same plan that failed a few years ago and expecting a different result, despite having far fewer resources (the Blades and Hammerfell), is just dumb.