117649AR Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Hi. I'm new, hope you don't mind me joining in. @117649ar The difference between the septim and mede empires is that the septim empire was blessed by akatosh and talos, but the mede empire does not have any blessings from divines. Also, Talos wouldn't necessarily be against the stormcloacks, because in morrowind wulf(an avatar of talos, or something like that) said that the empire needed to change. Who's to say the Mede Empire isn't blessed by Akatosh and Talos? Akatosh was quite specifically created as the Patron God of the Empire, and Talos is an extreme narcissist above everything else: the Empire is his lasting impression upon the world, one that he'd rather not see crumble away completely. The Medes have done nothing particularly wrong that would be considered an offense in the eyes of either, and the last time the Empire lost Akatosh's favor, the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion collapsed: Martin's sacrifice means that Dragonborn Emperors are no longer required to uphold this barrier, but presumably were the Empire to lose his favor, Akatosh would remove the barrier again. You must understand, also, Wulf's exact words: he only states that it might be time for a change, noting the Emperor's old age, and very specifically states that he does not know what that change should be. Perhaps he was simply indicating some form of reform, or that the Septim Dynasty had run its course: he never states that it should fall, nor indicates that he wants it to. We cannot claim to know what exactly he meant, because the meaning of his statement is ambiguous, and because the context of his statement was very different: the Empire then was not the Empire now, and much has happened between Dagoth Ur's defeat and Alduin's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Also, Talos wouldn't necessarily be against the stormcloacks, because in morrowind wulf(an avatar of talos, or something like that) said that the empire needed to change.An, but he then directly intervened in Oblivion's Knights of the Nine to prevent something old from returning. He's just as against going backwards as he is against stagnancy, and Ulfric and the Stormcloaos are extremely regressionist. As for the blessing... The Dragonborn Emperors had a loose covenant with Akatosh, but it wasn't so much a blessing... And Talos didn't really protect or bless the Empire either. The Cyrodiilic Empires, straight back to the rise of the Ayleid's, have always stood on conquest, and the transitions have been marked by near total dissolution. During both the fall of the Alessian Empire and the Interregnum of the Second Era, even Cyrodiil split into city states with no central authority. The Empires collapsed in totality. This never happened at the end of the 3rd Era. There seem to have been three counts in Cyrodiil interested in taking the throne, but there was no dissolution of the Empire. Thus, regardless of the change in dynastic rulership, the Septim Empire persists. And in dealing with us minding new blood... I think if this conversation ever gets to the point where anyone objects to someone new givi.g their thoughts, we've carried it too far. Edited April 1, 2015 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) @lachodoninThe Mede empire is still the third empire, but it is not the Septim empire. For an empire to be the Septim empire a Septim would have to be on the throne. And in the Knights of the Nine, Talos intervened to kill Umaril, who was trying to destroy the nine divines. @117649ARWulf's words are unclear, they could refer to changes that already happened or they could mean he wants Ulfric to defeat the empire so the world will change. And Akatosh blessed the empire because of the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires, which do not exist anymore. Edited April 1, 2015 by Elimc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Also, it depends on whether or not you think "dynasty" is synonymous with "empire". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
117649AR Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 @117649ARWulf's words are unclear, they could refer to changes that already happened or they could mean he wants Ulfric to defeat the empire so the world will change. And Akatosh blessed the empire because of the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires, which do not exist anymore. The fact that Wulf's words are deliberately ambiguous is the exact reason they cannot be used to say that Talos has forsaken the Empire: it cannot be known what he means by them, and they can only fuel speculation. That said, Akatosh did not bless the Empire because of the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires, he blessed the Empire through them: they were made significant only when Saint Alessia made her Covenant. Martin's sacrifice made them effectively obsolete, removing their importance: Akatosh's blessing presumably still stands, as it is presumably what maintains the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 @117649AR I said that Wulf's words could not be used as evidence for either side, but earlier someone had said that talos would fight for the empire, and I was saying that no one knows which side he is on. Also, since Akatosh blessed the Empire through the Amulet of Kings, now that it is gone he probably does not support it anymore. And there is a theory that the Dragonborn, Ulfric, and Tullius all mantled Talos the same way that Tiber Septim, Ysmir, and Zurin Articus mantled Lorkhan. If this is true, than that will create a dragon break, allowing the divines to make whoever they want win the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I said that Wulf's words could not be used as evidence for either side, but earlier someone had said that talos would fight for the empire, and I was saying that no one knows which side he is on.It's unlikely he's on either side. He wants change, while the Empire represents stagnancy and the Stormcloks represent regression. Neither of them are particularly favourable to his perspective, though if we take C0DA into account, the stronger front presented by the Empire has a better chance of Stoll ng the Dominion... Assuming it is indeed the Dominion that causes Landfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
117649AR Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 @117649AR I said that Wulf's words could not be used as evidence for either side, but earlier someone had said that talos would fight for the empire, and I was saying that no one knows which side he is on. Also, since Akatosh blessed the Empire through the Amulet of Kings, now that it is gone he probably does not support it anymore. And there is a theory that the Dragonborn, Ulfric, and Tullius all mantled Talos the same way that Tiber Septim, Ysmir, and Zurin Articus mantled Lorkhan. If this is true, than that will create a dragon break, allowing the divines to make whoever they want win the war. As I said, Martin's sacrifice rendered the Amulet and the Dragonfires obsolete: the sacrifice itself upholds the Covenant in their place. Further, it is heavily implied given the events of both Oblivion and Online that the blessing of Akatosh maintains the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion: this barrier is clearly upheld by the events of Skyrim. As for your proposed enantiomorph, of the three only the Last Dragonborn shows any real signs of "walking like" Talos, and even so Talos is not a God that can be mantled: the steps of the dead are the steps of the dead, and even disregarding that, CHIM guarantees permanence of self. Talos controls his own identity. Further, apotheosis does not universally lead to Dragon Breaks, and indeed breaking the Dragon is a much harder thing to do than many people seem to believe. I said that Wulf's words could not be used as evidence for either side, but earlier someone had said that talos would fight for the empire, and I was saying that no one knows which side he is on.It's unlikely he's on either side. He wants change, while the Empire represents stagnancy and the Stormcloks represent regression. Neither of them are particularly favourable to his perspective, though if we take C0DA into account, the stronger front presented by the Empire has a better chance of Stoll ng the Dominion... Assuming it is indeed the Dominion that causes Landfall. I thought Landfall was caused by the Jills repairing the time-wounds and recombining the alternate timeline of the Siege of Alinor with the primary Nirnic timeline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I thought Landfall was caused by the Jills repairing the time-wounds and recombining the alternate timeline of the Siege of Alinor with the primary Nirnic timeline?We don't know exactly what causes Landfall, only that it signals the beginning of the 5th Era, and that the Thalmor seem to at least be around to see it happen. The most common theories all generally point to it being a Thalmor plot gone wrong, but at the end of the day we don't have a definitive trigger. Or even an indication if Landfall happens in Bethesda's timeline at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 @117649AR On the thing about Talos, it is still a possibility, and if it is true the divines won't care who wins. Sorry i don't have much time so this is all i am going to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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