Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@117AR

 

Akatosh does not keep the Oblivion gates closed, that is what the Towers do, including the White-Gold Tower. Dagon was able to invade because the White Gold Tower was deactivated when the Mythic Dawn removed its stone, the Amulet of Kings. The tower being deactivated is what weakened the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion, Akatosh had nothing to do with that. Besides, if Akatosh's covenant with the Empire was what kept the oblivion gates closed, then why didn't Dagon invade any time between the 2nd and 3rd empires.

 

@Lachdonin

 

Just because Ulfric took the city does not mean that he or his men were responsible for killing large numbers of innocent civilians. It is possible that they were informed by Igmund that most of the reachmen were forsworn, or that Igmund conducted the executions with his own men, since executing prisoners takes a lot less men than trying to siege a city than it does to preform a few executions. Also, Igmund could have waited until Ulfric was arrested to preform the atrocities described by Braig. There is no proof of what Ulfric did there, all we can do is make assumptions.

[117649AR]

@117AR

 

Akatosh does not keep the Oblivion gates closed, that is what the Towers do, including the White-Gold Tower. Dagon was able to invade because the White Gold Tower was deactivated when the Mythic Dawn removed its stone, the Amulet of Kings. The tower being deactivated is what weakened the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion, Akatosh had nothing to do with that. Besides, if Akatosh's covenant with the Empire was what kept the oblivion gates closed, then why didn't Dagon invade any time between the 2nd and 3rd empires.

 

There is nothing to support your claim that the Towers enforce the barrier between the Planes, while it is explicitly stated that Akatosh does: the barrier does not just weaken whenever the Empire is in turmoil, the barrier weakens when Akatosh's blessing is revoked. The Planemeld occurred not because of the Interregnum, but because of Mannimarco's tampering with the Amulet of Kings, breaking the Covenant.

 

The Towers Ada-Mantia, Red Mountain, and Talos sustain Creation. The Merish Towers are apotheosis-engines created by the races of Mer in order to follow Auriel's ascension, and now serve to "shape the stories" of the Mundus. They do not keep the gates of Oblivion shut.

[Elimc]

According to elderscrollswikia the Amulet of Kings being tampered with deactivated the White-Gold Tower, allowing Dagon to invade. According to UESP, Akatosh let Dagon in because Martin broke his covenant. I find the first theory more likely, because between the second and third empires there would have been no dragonborn emporer on the throne, so by that logic Dagon should have invaded ages before he actually did. Of course, with all the confusing metaphysics here, it is equally likely that they are both true at the same time, despite being mutually exclusive.

[117649AR]

According to elderscrollswikia the Amulet of Kings being tampered with deactivated the White-Gold Tower, allowing Dagon to invade. According to UESP, Akatosh let Dagon in because Martin broke his covenant. I find the first theory more likely, because between the second and third empires there would have been no dragonborn emporer on the throne, so by that logic Dagon should have invaded ages before he actually did. Of course, with all the confusing metaphysics here, it is equally likely that they are both true at the same time, despite being mutually exclusive.

 

You're trusting a wiki over the games themselves, and aside that, UESP is a far more reliable source: the Amulet of Kings was the Stone of White-Gold, and thus its destruction deactivated the Tower. However, the Amulet was not destroyed before the Oblivion Crisis, it was destroyed after it. That said, it wasn't Martin who broke the Covenant (and indeed UESP doesn't say that it was), it was the Mythic Dawn (by killing the Emperor and his heirs, and then stealing the Amulet of Kings): Martin simply rendered the original Covenant irrelevant. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of what's explicitly stated in the games and in source texts. The Covenant does not break simply when there are no Dragonborn Emperors, the Covenant breaks when it is purposefully broken.

[Elimc]

The covenant says that as long as there is a dragonborn emporer on the throne, Akatosh will uphold the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion. Since there was no dragonborn emporer on the throne between the second and third empires, and Dagon did not invade during that time, it is not crazy to think that something else held the daedra back as well. This makes perfect sense if you combine both of the theories, because then Akatosh stopped upholding the covenant and the White-Gold Tower stopped reinforcing the barriers. And even the UESP wiki says that it is a well known theory that the Towers reinforce the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion, even if it does not confirm or deny it. The original covenant is indeed irrelevant now, because Martin permamentally closed the Oblivion gates when he sacrificed himself. And the covenant does say that Akatosh will hold back the daedra as long as there is a dragonborn emporer on the throne. It says nothing about being broken on purpose or not.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Elimc

[Lachdonin]

Just because Ulfric took the city does not mean that he or his men were responsible for killing large numbers of innocent civilians. It is possible that they were informed by Igmund that most of the reachmen were forsworn, or that Igmund conducted the executions with his own men, since executing prisoners takes a lot less men than trying to siege a city than it does to preform a few executions. Also, Igmund could have waited until Ulfric was arrested to preform the atrocities described by Braig. There is no proof of what Ulfric did there, all we can do is make assumptions.

I can see that you are largely unfamiliar with post conquest policing actions, either within the real world or within TES... It took an entire imperial army to hold down Mournbold, Stros M'kai, Alinor and Torval, and likely many others. In all 4 cases, maintaining order seems to have taken more soldiers than taking the city.

 

Igmund's father intimately knew the defenses of his city, and still lacked the means to take it back from poorly armed reachmen. Ulfric, a leader from thousands of kilometers away, retook the city that its own leader couldn't. Thinking that Igmund's father could then just waltz in and start executing without the assistance from Ulfric's forces is silly.

 

You also have the consideration that Ulfric handed over prisoners with the knowledge they would be tortured and killed. If we're going to apply modern ethics to the situation (and since we've been operating on the assumption of religious freedoms, we sort of have to, since religious freedoms have never been a right in Tamriel) he remains culpable for knowingly handing prisoners over for torture and execution. (In context it doesn't make much sense though, because exectution and torture are normal in Tamriel, but then again so is religious persecution).

 

End of the day, you have to do some rather dramatic mental gymnastics to absolve Ulfric of ANY blame in Tue massacre, just as you have to do to absolve the Empire of it (they seem to I've been delaying and playing both sides to see who won without them having to commit to anyone until after the fact).

 

There is nothing to support your claim that the Towers enforce the barrier between the Planes

Lord Umbriel actually states they do. He claims that the Towers are part of a much older system of wards that predate the Covenant, and that White Gold is the center of that network. This is supported by some information in ESO which indicates that White Gold was, in fact, the first of the Merish Towers, and that following the Revolt the Ayleid's tried to usurp it to create their own network.

[117649AR]

The covenant says that as long as there is a dragonborn emporer on the throne, Akatosh will uphold the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion. Since there was no dragonborn emporer on the throne between the second and third empires, and Dagon did not invade during that time, it is not crazy to think that something else held the daedra back as well. This makes perfect sense if you combine both of the theories, because then Akatosh stopped upholding the covenant and the White-Gold Tower stopped reinforcing the barriers. And even the UESP wiki says that it is a well known theory that the Towers reinforce the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion, even if it does not confirm or deny it. The original covenant is indeed irrelevant now, because Martin permamentally closed the Oblivion gates when he sacrificed himself. And the covenant does say that Akatosh will hold back the daedra as long as there is a dragonborn emporer on the throne. It says nothing about being broken on purpose or not.

 

The Covenant of Alessia states that so long as the Amulet is in the possession of a Dragonborn, the Dragonfires will remain lit: Hjalti recovered it from the tomb of Reman III. That said, your theory doesn't hold weight because White-Gold was not deactivated until after the Oblivion Crisis: the Amulet of Kings was safely in the hands of the Champion of Cyrodiil when the barrier between the planes dissolved. That said, the entire point is that we do not know exactly how the Towers excepting Ada-Mantia, Red Mountain, and Talos function. Their purpose is, in different sources, described as being built by Mer to follow Auriel's apotheosis or built by Mer to shape the stories of the land. That Towers enforce the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion is only another theory, and one that doesn't apply to the Oblivion Crisis considering the circumstances.

[Elimc]

@Lachdonin

 

Ulfric and his men would have killed the majority of the forsworn in the battle to take Markarth, so it would not be too hard for Igmund's guards to arrest people on the charge of aiding the Forsworn, since the peole who wanted to fight would have already been killed. And Ulfric may have helped Igmund, but it is just as likely as not that he actually belived that the men he was executing were forsworn, since he would not have had any knowledge of the men, other than Igmund said they were guilty. It is also possible that he did know, and did not care. We will never know.

 

@117649AR

 

The Dragonfires would not have been lit during the time between empires,though, because they only can get relight by a new dragonborn emporer. And when the Mythic Dawn took the Amulet of Kings, they tampered with it and broke its connetction with the White-Gold Tower, deactivating it, and allowing Dagon to break through. Dagon could only come through because the Covenant with Akatosh was broken AND the White-Gold Tower was deactivated

[117649AR]

@Lachdonin

 

Ulfric and his men would have killed the majority of the forsworn in the battle to take Markarth, so it would not be too hard for Igmund's guards to arrest people on the charge of aiding the Forsworn, since the peole who wanted to fight would have already been killed. And Ulfric may have helped Igmund, but it is just as likely as not that he actually belived that the men he was executing were forsworn, since he would not have had any knowledge of the men, other than Igmund said they were guilty. It is also possible that he did know, and did not care. We will never know.

 

@117649AR

 

The Dragonfires would not have been lit during the time between empires,though, because they only can get relight by a new dragonborn emporer. And when the Mythic Dawn took the Amulet of Kings, they tampered with it and broke its connetction with the White-Gold Tower, deactivating it, and allowing Dagon to break through. Dagon could only come through because the Covenant with Akatosh was broken AND the White-Gold Tower was deactivated

 

The Mythic Dawn did not take the Amulet of Kings until after the Oblivion Crisis had already begun, and there is nothing to indicate that White-Gold was deactivated until after the Crisis.

[Lachdonin]

@Lachdonin

 

Ulfric and his men would have killed the majority of the forsworn in the battle to take Markarth, so it would not be too hard for Igmund's guards to arrest people on the charge of aiding the Forsworn, since the peole who wanted to fight would have already been killed. And Ulfric may have helped Igmund, but it is just as likely as not that he actually belived that the men he was executing were forsworn, since he would not have had any knowledge of the men, other than Igmund said they were guilty. It is also possible that he did know, and did not care. We will never know.

 

That sounds an aweful lot like 'I didn't see him, so he can't have done it!'.

 

We KNOW Ulfric took the city. We KNOW he held it from Igmund's father until they agreed to reinstate Talos. He also seems to have been arrested in Markarth, putting him on site during the period of the executions. He's at least as culpable as Igmund himself, who was only the SON of the Jarl at the time.

 

Dismissing the testimony of The Bear of Markarth because it is from an Imperial author is just as disingenuous as taking the testimony of a bunch of priosners who never once mention a name (they only refer to the Jarl, which both Ulfric and Igmund are now, but were not at the time) as proof of Ulfric's innocence.

 

Even if he had nothing to do with the exectutions (which, again, is highly unlikely) the entire situation is hilariously obvious evidence of his hypocrisy. He put down a rebellion of oppressed people (who couldn't worship their own gods or govern themselves) and used it to protest the Talos ban and the oppression of the Empire?