Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Lachdonin]

 

Lachdonin, isn't this the same source you are dismissing in the other thread? i.e. The Great War, written by a guy that fought at the battle of Red Ring?

 

Can't have it both ways, i.e. use it as a source to support your position here, and totally dismiss it in another thread.

 

 

 

One book which is vague on details does not invalidate more than a dozen other in-game sources, and the word of the developers.

 

 

The Bear of Markarth is my source from the other thread. There is nothing in Skyrim which contradicts it, whereas The Great War gives a scale which is inconsistent with every other source in TES. That means that it is A; wrong, or B; glossing over a detail which allowed the Imperial Armies to move faster than otherwise possible.

[fraquar]

????

 

The Bear of Markarth has nothing to do with events that happened well BEFORE it - i.e . The Great War.

 

The Great War was written by a Legion who fought in the battle to liberate the Imperial City. If anything, the details of the invasion should be spot on (because they'd be disgustingly easy to dismiss otherwise). Hard to see an agenda in The Great War, while there is plenty of agenda to see in The Bear of Markarth - which all happened without ANY Imperial presence whatsoever.

Edited September 8, 2014 by fraquar

[Lachdonin]

????

 

The Bear of Markarth has nothing to do with events that happened well BEFORE it - i.e . The Great War.

 

The Great War was written by a Legion who fought in the battle to liberate the Imperial City. If anything, the details of the invasion should be spot on (because they'd be disgustingly easy to dismiss otherwise). Hard to see an agenda in The Great War, while there is plenty of agenda to see in The Bear of Markarth - which all happened without ANY Imperial presence whatsoever.

 

Yeah, mixed up the threads. It would be helpful if there weren't 3 threads going with almost identical conversations.

 

Anyway, a source does not have to be 100% right or wrong, and can contain elements of truth. The Great War is a fine source for general movements during the War (mostly because it's our ONLY source) but it is not a good source for scale. EVERYTHING else contradicts it.

[GetTheJojDone]

While most races can join the Legion, it doesn't meant that they can't join the Stormcloaks. I'll break it down per race.

Nord: Obvious

Imperial: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Farmer_%28NPC%29 Second farmer http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Reburrus_Quintilius

Redguard: See various Treaties of Stros M'Kai. To Redguards, the only way that the Empire will sit down and listen is if they have their @$$es handed to them soundly.

Breton: In High Rock: Ulfric sent letters to High Rock asking for help. Jarl Skald repeatedly asks his court mage to join the war. In the Reach: Yes, the Silver-Bloods attempted to enslave the Forsworn, but Igmund or his father (both Imperial supporters) attempted to have them all executed.

Argonian: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Teeba-Ei

Khajiit: Really, neither, so a Khajiit looking to join the Civil War really should just flip a coin.

Wood Elf: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Anuriel

High Elf: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Captain_Valmir Can pass for one, at least.

Orc: Back in the day, several Orcs supported the Empire, but so did many current Stormcloaks. Nowadays, several Orcs have connections with the Silver-Bloods: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Mulush_gro-Shugurz http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Urzoga_gra-Shugurz

Dark Elf: OK, hard one. Maybe, the Stormcloaks are stauncher allies in the Dark Elves' eventual war with the Argonians occupying Morrowind? Yeah, that one's a stretch.

Anyway, apart from Dark Elves, most of the other races have reasons to support the Stormcloaks or are already doing so.

 

Wrong, most of these are a stretch. First and foremost - most of the Stormcloaks, especially the ones in more solid Stormcloak territory like Windhelm, absolutely hate Dunmer, Argonians, Elves and Khajiit. The notion that the Dunmer would ally with them is laughable at best, given what the Stormcloaks inflict on them in Windhelm.

 

Anuriel doesn't support the Stormcloaks - if you'd ever played on the Empire's side, you'd know that (basically, Anuriel is a Thieves Guild member put in place by Maven to keep Laila out of the Guild's business, according to a letter found in her room during the Imperial version of Compelling Tribute).

 

True, Moth gro-Bagol is an old friend of the Silver-Bloods, but in a conversation with Thongvor (which can't be heard without USKP, but only because Thongvor never visits Moth) that he refuses to talk politics with him.

 

Your citation of Captain Valmir as a Stormcloak is also kinda funny, given that Valmir is a part of the same Thalmor cell as Ancano, and is manipulating soldiers of each side of the war into helping him retrieve the Dragon Priest mask from the ruin he's camped outside (it's name escapes me for the moment).

 

Your reason for Bretons to join the Stormcloaks is also more than a stretch, given that the Bretons remain staunch allies of the Empire, and refused to answer Ulfric's envoys, and Madena also repeatedly refuses Skald. The Reachmen are not Bretons, and your assertions that Igmund and Hrolfdir tried to have them all executed are baseless, given that it was actually Ulfric's doing during the Markarth incident.

 

You also have to realise that being a housecarl/steward for a Stormcloak Jarl isn't the same as being a Stormcloak soldier yourself, hell, even Jarl Sorli the Builder doesn't care about the Stormcloak cause. For the most part, housecarls and stewards are just people who happened to be associated with the Jarl before they were Jarl, and from what I've seen, very few of them have any strong opinion on the war.

 

Long story short, very few people besides Nords have any reason to join the Stormcloaks - except Redguards (Endon and Kerah in Markarth talk about their son who's joined the Stormcloaks), and that one Imperial farmer (Reburrus Quintilius was just one of Thongvor's employees anyway, and he only seems to be following the money).

Edited September 8, 2014 by GetTheJojDone

[MidbossVyers]

I said Valmir could pass for a Stormcloak. I never said he was one. Also, although Laelette, a Breton, was actually turned into a vampire, the coverup story was that she joined the Stormcloaks. Again, it's enough to convince people. Also, I said that they could join the Stormcloaks. I never said that they would have to be staunch supporters, just like how several Legion players also joined the Dark Brotherhood and killed the Emperor, despite taking an oath to protect and serve him.

Edited September 8, 2014 by MidbossVyers

[fraquar]

If the people in staunch Stormcloak territory (i.e. Windhelm) were that gung ho about eliminating any non-Nord presence in the city - they'd NEVER have a better time to eliminate them. Either by running them out of town on a rail, or by more "desperate" means. Instead, we see non-Nord races basically running Windhelm.

 

Who is running 1/2 the stalls in the marketplace? Non-Nords.

Who is running 1/2 of the establishments in Windhelm? Non-Nords.

 

We can interpret this two ways.....

a) Their presence is tolerated as necessary, as they have been assimilated into Windhelm culture

or

b) They really aren't as gung-ho, racist, kill the pointy-eard people as we are led to believe.

 

Yet somehow, one drunkard at the city gates speaks for not only Windhelm, but Ulfric and the entire Stormcloak movement. Kill all the pointy-eards!!!!!!! And we wonder why so many followed Hitler.......... Gullable lot we are......

Edited September 11, 2014 by fraquar

[MidbossVyers]

I know, right? Also, Brunwulf, who speaks out against Ulfric. After the Legion conquers Windhelm, he just happens to be appointed Jarl.

[Khorak]

 

 

Wrong, most of these are a stretch. First and foremost - most of the Stormcloaks, especially the ones in more solid Stormcloak territory like Windhelm, absolutely hate Dunmer, Argonians, Elves and Khajiit. The notion that the Dunmer would ally with them is laughable at best, given what the Stormcloaks inflict on them in Windhelm.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that 'most of the Stormcloaks' hate the Dunmer. In fact, the one piece of direct racism you see in the game explicitly has the line, "And you refuse to help the Stormcloaks!"

 

It is unsurprising that there would be resentment of that fact (though widespread outright hate is not evident) when the response to that complaint is "But it's not our fight."

 

The problem here, for Stormcloak supporters like the drunkard at Windhelm, is that Dunmer in Skyrim are calling it their home but refusing to fight for it under the reasoning that it is not their fight....a reasoning that intrinsically means they do not consider themselves a part of Skyrim.

 

 

 

Anuriel doesn't support the Stormcloaks - if you'd ever played on the Empire's side, you'd know that (basically, Anuriel is a Thieves Guild member put in place by Maven to keep Laila out of the Guild's business, according to a letter found in her room during the Imperial version of Compelling Tribute).

 

Hahaha! That's....stupid at best. First, the Thieves Guild doesn't give a damn so her allegiance on the basis of her membership cannot be known, and Maven's own allegiance is irrelevant to having the Thieves Guild, which is neutral and will steal from you regardless of who you pay your taxes to, in her back pocket.

 

Though as an aside, it is amusing to realise the obvious result in the future of your restoring the Thieves Guild....they'll be far too powerful for Maven to influence anymore. Haha! Screw you, you useless dirtbag.

 

 

 

True, Moth gro-Bagol is an old friend of the Silver-Bloods, but in a conversation with Thongvor (which can't be heard without USKP, but only because Thongvor never visits Moth) that he refuses to talk politics with him.

 

I refuse to talk politics, therefore the position of my entire race can be determined as being against the Stormcloaks.

 

....what?

 

 

 

Your citation of Captain Valmir as a Stormcloak is also kinda funny, given that Valmir is a part of the same Thalmor cell as Ancano, and is manipulating soldiers of each side of the war into helping him retrieve the Dragon Priest mask from the ruin he's camped outside (it's name escapes me for the moment).

 

No idea why he mentioned Valmir, but quite frankly your objections to the Stormcloaks being perfectly fine with ANYONE willing to fight honestly for their cause can be defeated in their absolute entirety by a single word:

 

GALMAR.

 

The most staunch Stormcloak supporter in Skyrim does not, at any point, give a damn about your status as a High Elf when it comes to recruitment. He cares about your desire to truly be a Stormcloak. And why would a High Elf want to be a Stormcloak? Same reason anyone in the Empire might want to be...because they've lost faith in the Empire and want to throw in with the people who basically want to overthrow it and restore what it used to be.

 

Oh, and if the Stormcloaks hated everyone else so much....how exactly would Valmir have gotten all those Stormcloaks to enter Forelhost? They'd have seen a High Elf Stormcloak and cut his face off.

 

 

 

Your reason for Bretons to join the Stormcloaks is also more than a stretch, given that the Bretons remain staunch allies of the Empire, and refused to answer Ulfric's envoys, and Madena also repeatedly refuses Skald. The Reachmen are not Bretons, and your assertions that Igmund and Hrolfdir tried to have them all executed are baseless, given that it was actually Ulfric's doing during the Markarth incident.

 

The Breton's entire 'hat' is that they are a pile of feudalistic, court intrigue obsessed nobles like a romantic stereotype of a chivalric France. Hadvar even mentions this when you choose to be one. The number of reasons for a Breton to join the Stormcloaks is larger than it would be for every single other race in the game. Combined. You can make up basically anything. High Rock is that sort of a place.

 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Khorak

[Lachdonin]

The racism and Anti-Nord mentailty of the Stormcloaks is always overblown in arguments. Frankly, don't really know why.

 

All we know is that;

 

Ulfric doesn't pay much attention to the needs of his Dunmeri or Argonian citizens (though, frankly, he has a war to fight, and doesn't seem to be paying much attention to the needs of the Nord citizens either).

 

We know the Jarl of Winterhold is a racist old bastard, but he seems to hate just about everything... Giants, wizards, elves, rabbits, the colour of that guys buttons... He's just an embodiment of the curmudgeon-y old has-been whose bitter at everyone and will just side with whoever promises him the 'good old days'.

 

Some random drunks in Windhelm don't trust the Dunmer (and probably shouldn't, these are Dunmer we're talking about, and not the soft, cushy Tribunal-Dunmer anymore).

 

Ralof seems to blame the Elves for things... Like being captured and taken prisoner for being revolutionaries.

 

Is that more racism than you get out of the Imperial camp? yes. But it's superficial at best. Racism alone is not enough to invalidate the legitimate causes of the Stormcloaks any more than adhering to treaties is reason enough to invalidate the Empires.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Lachdonin

[GetTheJojDone]

 

 

 

Wrong, most of these are a stretch. First and foremost - most of the Stormcloaks, especially the ones in more solid Stormcloak territory like Windhelm, absolutely hate Dunmer, Argonians, Elves and Khajiit. The notion that the Dunmer would ally with them is laughable at best, given what the Stormcloaks inflict on them in Windhelm.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that 'most of the Stormcloaks' hate the Dunmer. In fact, the one piece of direct racism you see in the game explicitly has the line, "And you refuse to help the Stormcloaks!"

 

It is unsurprising that there would be resentment of that fact (though widespread outright hate is not evident) when the response to that complaint is "But it's not our fight."

 

The problem here, for Stormcloak supporters like the drunkard at Windhelm, is that Dunmer in Skyrim are calling it their home but refusing to fight for it under the reasoning that it is not their fight....a reasoning that intrinsically means they do not consider themselves a part of Skyrim.

 

 

 

Anuriel doesn't support the Stormcloaks - if you'd ever played on the Empire's side, you'd know that (basically, Anuriel is a Thieves Guild member put in place by Maven to keep Laila out of the Guild's business, according to a letter found in her room during the Imperial version of Compelling Tribute).

 

Hahaha! That's....stupid at best. First, the Thieves Guild doesn't give a damn so her allegiance on the basis of her membership cannot be known, and Maven's own allegiance is irrelevant to having the Thieves Guild, which is neutral and will steal from you regardless of who you pay your taxes to, in her back pocket.

 

Though as an aside, it is amusing to realise the obvious result in the future of your restoring the Thieves Guild....they'll be far too powerful for Maven to influence anymore. Haha! Screw you, you useless dirtbag.

 

 

 

True, Moth gro-Bagol is an old friend of the Silver-Bloods, but in a conversation with Thongvor (which can't be heard without USKP, but only because Thongvor never visits Moth) that he refuses to talk politics with him.

 

I refuse to talk politics, therefore the position of my entire race can be determined as being against the Stormcloaks.

 

....what?

 

 

 

Your citation of Captain Valmir as a Stormcloak is also kinda funny, given that Valmir is a part of the same Thalmor cell as Ancano, and is manipulating soldiers of each side of the war into helping him retrieve the Dragon Priest mask from the ruin he's camped outside (it's name escapes me for the moment).

 

No idea why he mentioned Valmir, but quite frankly your objections to the Stormcloaks being perfectly fine with ANYONE willing to fight honestly for their cause can be defeated in their absolute entirety by a single word:

 

GALMAR.

 

The most staunch Stormcloak supporter in Skyrim does not, at any point, give a damn about your status as a High Elf when it comes to recruitment. He cares about your desire to truly be a Stormcloak. And why would a High Elf want to be a Stormcloak? Same reason anyone in the Empire might want to be...because they've lost faith in the Empire and want to throw in with the people who basically want to overthrow it and restore what it used to be.

 

Oh, and if the Stormcloaks hated everyone else so much....how exactly would Valmir have gotten all those Stormcloaks to enter Forelhost? They'd have seen a High Elf Stormcloak and cut his face off.

 

 

 

Your reason for Bretons to join the Stormcloaks is also more than a stretch, given that the Bretons remain staunch allies of the Empire, and refused to answer Ulfric's envoys, and Madena also repeatedly refuses Skald. The Reachmen are not Bretons, and your assertions that Igmund and Hrolfdir tried to have them all executed are baseless, given that it was actually Ulfric's doing during the Markarth incident.

 

The Breton's entire 'hat' is that they are a pile of feudalistic, court intrigue obsessed nobles like a romantic stereotype of a chivalric France. Hadvar even mentions this when you choose to be one. The number of reasons for a Breton to join the Stormcloaks is larger than it would be for every single other race in the game. Combined. You can make up basically anything. High Rock is that sort of a place.

 

 

 

I take it you don't listen when Stormcloak guards snear at you "Don't cross me, elf." or "What do you want, cat/lizard?" The line about refusing to join the Stormcloaks is immediately preceded by "You pollute our city with your stink", in case you've forgotten, and the "drunkard" in question is Galmar's brother. Also, fighting for the Stormcloaks =/= fighting for Skyrim. It's fighting for a short-sighted vision that isn't guided by a plan much more detailed than putting an undiplomatic, megalomanic warmonger on the throne of Skyrim, who will magically put the Thalmor in their place (and by all indications, anyone who doesn't worship the ground Ulfric walks on). But that's another can of worms.

 

And will you quit insulting people? Or did that admin's warning on the other thread not sink in? It's not "stupid" at all. Anuriel explicitly says during said mission that she doesn't care for the war either way, so she's no Stormcloak. I also never implied Anuriel was allied with the Empire on basis of affiliation with Maven.

 

And re:Moth, did you forget that I was rebutting someone who clearly has no idea what constitutes a Stormcloak sympathiser, and simply said that Moth could be one by virtue of association with Thongvor Silver-Blood? I did not say that Orcs are anti-Stormcloak. I DID say there's no evidence for them being pro-Stormcloak. Like the Dunmer in Windhelm, Moth also says that the Civil War isn't the Orcs' fight. And certainly, no other Orcs express Stormcloak sympathies.

 

And re: High Elves, you make a fair point about Valmir, but you do seem to be ignoring the many dunmer in Windhelm and others like them who are suffering because of Ulfric ignoring their needs. Is this how he'd treat all non-Nords in Skyrim if he were High King? Why would such a man deserve power in the first place, if he can't wield it fairly? Also, the Stormcloaks don't want to reform the Empire; they want to destroy it, as foolish as that is.

 

The racism and Anti-Nord mentailty of the Stormcloaks is always overblown in arguments. Frankly, don't really know why.

 

All we know is that;

 

Ulfric doesn't pay much attention to the needs of his Dunmeri or Argonian citizens (though, frankly, he has a war to fight, and doesn't seem to be paying much attention to the needs of the Nord citizens either).

 

We know the Jarl of Winterhold is a racist old bastard, but he seems to hate just about everything... Giants, wizards, elves, rabbits, the colour of that guys buttons... He's just an embodiment of the curmudgeon-y old has-been whose bitter at everyone and will just side with whoever promises him the 'good old days'.

 

Some random drunks in Windhelm don't trust the Dunmer (and probably shouldn't, these are Dunmer we're talking about, and not the soft, cushy Tribunal-Dunmer anymore).

 

Ralof seems to blame the Elves for things... Like being captured and taken prisoner for being revolutionaries.

 

Is that more racism than you get out of the Imperial camp? yes. But it's superficial at best. Racism alone is not enough to invalidate the legitimate causes of the Stormcloaks any more than adhering to treaties is reason enough to invalidate the Empires.

 

According to Brunwulf Free-Winter (before he's Jarl, and therefore before he has any ties with or reason to support the Empire in the war; sure he's a former Legionnaire, but so are most Stormcloaks, and yeah, he's hardly a fan of Ulfric's, but that doesn't automatically denote an Imperial sympathiser) Ulfric pays plenty of attention to the problems of Nords, and Nords exclusively, which certainly is racial discrimination in my book. It's unfortunate we don't have any more sources on the subject, unless I'm forgetting anything.

 

You're confusing the Jarl of Winterhold (Korir, who hates mages, elves in particular) and the Jarl of the Pale (Skald the Elder, who is the old bastard you're talking about, he's the one who hates giants, and just generally seems like a spoiled child stuck in an old man's body).

 

The "random drunk" is Galmar's brother. That's what makes it notable. And really, save for the one extremist dunmer who wrote "Dunmer of Skyrim" (who conveniently can't be found in game), the dunmer in Windhelm seem quite tame, if justifiably bitter and discontented. They actually seem to behave a lot like Booker T Washington's followers - "if we keep working and prove our worth, we'll earn our rights."

 

I didn't mention Ralof, mostly because I hardly ever leave Helgen with him, and can't remember a great deal of his dialogue beyond his inane prattling on the cart.

 

I don't think that racism is enough reason to invalidate the Stormcloak cause alone (although it's enough reason not to support them on principle, but that's my opinion). There are already enough practical arguments to side with the Empire, mainly because siding with the Stormcloaks makes no sense in the long term. Why?

 

Because Ulfric and co. have somehow deluded themselves into thinking that, even if they win the Civil War (bearing in mind that Skyrim would probably be absolutely devastated by that point, and there'd still probably be significant pockets of pro-Imperial dissent which, if not dealt with, could result in Ulfric being overthrown and his gains reversed), the hairy axe-draggers wearing bear-pelts that they call soldiers will be able to defeat the other Imperial legions in Cyrodiil, legions whose soldiers, even in 4E 201, are renowned for their tenacity, loyalty and superior training, not to mention that, with High Rock, it's a safe bet that they'd command at least double the manpower the Stormcloaks do, and they have battlemages to boot. Even with the generous assumption that the Stormcloaks will achieve this, they think that after that, they'll be able to take on the Aldmeri Dominion, who command soldiers equipped with elven and even glass armour and weaponry, and their battlemages (Altmer being among the most proficient mages of any race in Tamriel), again, remembering that the Dominion would have at least triple the Stormcloaks' manpower, probably many times more than that, after the Stormcloaks' losses in their hypothetical, probably narrow victory over the Empire in Cyrodiil.

 

That's why, in my opinion, anyway, the Empire is a necessary "evil" (not that it is particularly evil, the Emperor's only real crime is to allow the worship of 8 gods instead of 9, and even 8 gods is a bit superfluous, don't you think?), because if it can get it's s*** together and reaffirm it's control over Skyrim, maybe even manage to heal the rift with Hammerfell, then it stands a much better chance against the Dominion than Skyrim alone. Then everyone can go back to their superfluous 9 gods.

Edited September 11, 2014 by GetTheJojDone