Spell making - Why the overtly complicated method?

[Huglarh]

To be honest, one thing I love about Frostcrag DLC for oblivion, is the following:

 

1). Spells you learned unlocked effects relative to the spell you could use for crafting a spell.

 

2). Instead of predetermined factors for both Spell range (Explosion range), Time and effectiveness of the spell, there were "sliders" that let you select numbers from 1 to however the maximum was allowed; Spell range could be set to a minimum of 1 foot to a maximum of 60 feet, Time could be set to a minimum of 1 second to a maximum of 120 seconds, and effectivesness could be set to a minimum of 1 effectiveness to a maximum of 150.

 

3). There really weren't a lot of limitations except the Magicka Requirement would skyrocket if you were to set all of them to maximum, soaring over 10k to 50k magicka required to cast, and that you couldn't cast it if you lacked the skill in a specific school of magic that the spell sometimes predetermines its school type, depending on the effects used in crafting the spell.

 

I can understand if there is limitations to Skyrim's engine, if folks who want to develop this kinda mod still are trying to develop it to be easier, or trying to make sure its lore friendly, not game breaking and challenging to craft and be original and unique about its design. Or maybe because there hasn't been a way to discover how to do it like the developers did it in "TES:Oblivion".

 

My question though is that why does it have to be tedious and so limited when developing a spell in two of the current spell crafting mods that are one Nexus (If I missed one that nexus search turned up that I missed, let me know) and in general when people develop ones for Skyrim?

 

This may sound like a rant, and I'm trying not to knock on folks but, two of those known mods that you may find familiar as to what I am referring too, I have tried and I'm not really satisfied about its mechanics, just so I may craft spells how I'd like it to behave. I did make an effort but I lost heart and patience mid-way through the process. It wasn't a matter of idiocy or ignorance but common sense told me that it would get really tedious doing it time and again.

 

Seriously! Even if its absurd and likely arbitrary, I'd like to fire a Fire ball while conjuring a Flame atronauch at the sime time, or turn invisible and release a Fireball with a colossal range and effectiveness so I may set a whole town on fire while escaping quietly. How hard is that?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Huglarh

[lofgren]

Spellmaking wasn't added to Oblivion by a DLC, it was there from the beginning built right into the engine. For Skyrim they clearly decided to go a different route. The trade off is much more flexible magic effects for modders. With the functions being added by SKSE I expect someday we'll see a spellmaking mod that feels totally integrated. The modders who've worked on it up until now did so with limited resources and it's impressive that they accomplished what they did.

[Huglarh]

Spellmaking wasn't added to Oblivion by a DLC, it was there from the beginning built right into the engine. For Skyrim they clearly decided to go a different route. The trade off is much more flexible magic effects for modders. With the functions being added by SKSE I expect someday we'll see a spellmaking mod that feels totally integrated. The modders who've worked on it up until now did so with limited resources and it's impressive that they accomplished what they did.

From the beginning, how-- Oh, CK. No I mean from ingame means, so it doesn't feel less immersive (Unless you meant something else.)

 

And don't worry, I find it impressive too, that goes without question.

 

I just wonder if it was done deliberately during development to make it a bit tedious, or thats the only way how to develop them for the time being?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Huglarh

[lofgren]

No, spellmaking was always in Oblivion, from day one, provided by the developers, just as it was in Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Arena. Frostcrag had nothing to do with it. I don't know where you got the idea that it did.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Spell_Making

 

I don't know for certain that they are connected, but I suspect that in-game spellmaking had to be sacrificed in order to make the far more flexible magic effect system. For example in Skyrim you can make a magic effect that will summon any creature you want, while in Oblivion there were only a few preset options (which modders worked around using scripts).

 

Skyrim is the first Elder Scrolls main title to not have spellmaking. I have to assume that was a conscious decision.

[Deleted1308005User]

Well, I don't really miss the spellmaking. Usually the graphics for spells were horrible and you couldn't tell from it what the spell does.

 

In Skyrim you can recognize the spell when you look at it, and those spells look good.

However, Sadly the amount of spells was just too low in Skyrim.

[Huglarh]

Well, I don't really miss the spellmaking. Usually the graphics for spells were horrible and you couldn't tell from it what the spell does.

 

In Skyrim you can recognize the spell when you look at it, and those spells look good.

However, Sadly the amount of spells was just too low in Skyrim.

 

Likely, that is why I hoped more experience modders can develop the spell creation mechanism exactly as how it functioned in TES: Oblivion, just make a logical or illogical mix of spells and that would add more content, maybe a way to allow one to procure effects from spells introduced from Mods for extra spells to develop. Trust me when I say I'd like to create a Fire Atronach with constant health regen upon summon, since regenin' it while its summon will have no effect on it, given how Atronachs (Like undead and Dwemer constructs) can't be healed.

 

No, spellmaking was always in Oblivion, from day one, provided by the developers, just as it was in Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Arena. Frostcrag had nothing to do with it. I don't know where you got the idea that it did.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Spell_Making

 

I don't know for certain that they are connected, but I suspect that in-game spellmaking had to be sacrificed in order to make the far more flexible magic effect system. For example in Skyrim you can make a magic effect that will summon any creature you want, while in Oblivion there were only a few preset options (which modders worked around using scripts).

 

Skyrim is the first Elder Scrolls main title to not have spellmaking. I have to assume that was a conscious decision.

 

...I'll be honest, The whole time I have played oblivion and joined the Mages guild, I never knew it existed there.

 

Likely, but as I said in the above post as a response, I'm hoping someone more experienced will replicate it exactly as how it functioned in Oblivion.

 

If there is ever a inconsistency concerned balance and making sure crafting a spell won't be too easy, I would suggest that its best to replicate the exact spell making method and impliment it exactly as it is, right into vanilla gameplay. Once we are comfortable with it and fiddle around with it, than we have a better idea on what needs buffing, nerfing, etc. Cause if the adjustments to how it works was done ahead of time, there will be just tedious and/or annoying, inconsistent changes that make it not very enjoyable.

 

Personally, I liked how it was, it was fair and balanced as it is. From a "Vanilla" point of view, you simply couldn't cast it if it's magicka cost is too high and if you didn't have the school to cast it properly, so your forced to create spells that help in a variety of situations or one particular situation. Instead of trying to create over powered spells to do the work for you.

 

From a "Modded" point of view, this still would be fine for medium difficulties if you set the vanilla difficulty to a higher difficulty, and had mods to make the enemies more challenging to defeat. So creating a thermal-nuclear fireball spell with a range of 60 feet won't guarantee an insta-kill. And by than, even with mods, I know most players play fairly and would end up with their entire reserves depleted should they managed to craft a reasonably powerful spell.

 

Course, our concern would be if they just give themselves godly amounts of Magicka and create every kind of Overpowered spell as they see fit, than that really shouldn't be our concern, and it won't be mine anytime soon; even if I were to develop mediocre/fantastic mods where they just cheat their way through and gripe to me about it being too easy. What someone does in singleplayer should never be my concern. If my mod promotes fair gameplay and they adhere to fair, normal, uncheated gameplay: more power to me and the one using my mod. If I'm going mad because my mod can be exploited to make or do overpowered things, than that is there fault.

[Ceruulean]

There are mods already that emulate spellmaking, but they use scripts and other resources:

 

Spell Crafting for Skyrim

Archmage Spellcrafting

The Last Altar

 

The CK does have a "Spellmaking" section in the MagicEfect window, but it does little except decide whether potions/dual casting affect magnitude or duration of a spell. Also, spellmaking is inconvenient because you can't make unlimited spells with scripting alone. You would need something built into the game, like enchanting and alchemy. Spells also have a lot more variables for visual effects, like hit shaders, persisting effects, etc.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Ceruulean

[Huglarh]

There are mods already that emulate spellmaking, but they use scripts and other resources:

 

Spell Crafting for Skyrim

Archmage Spellcrafting

The Last Altar

 

The CK does have a "Spellmaking" section in the MagicEfect window, but it does little except decide whether potions/dual casting affect magnitude or duration of a spell. Also, spellmaking is inconvenient because you can't make unlimited spells with the current system.

 

Yes but I did try all of those, as I said earlier.

 

I need one that functions exactly as it did in Tesv: Oblivion

 

No new means of limitation

 

No absurd or overtly complicated method just to craft one spell, and it has to allow me to craft as many as I like. If I crash the game because I made too much, that's my fault.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Huglarh

[Ceruulean]

What about this one?

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=98872139

 

Of course, it's more limited, but at least it's simpler. There really is no way to make a new spellmaking system exactly like Oblivion with current tools, unless a modder decides to write a lot of scripts.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Ceruulean

[lofgren]

Ibstill think we'll get it someday. There are a lot of players and modders who were upset that it was removed. One thing you won't see is tha ability to cast self-target effects in the same spell as an aimed spell, because that is (seems to be) impossible. But that is a relatively minor limitation.